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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:57:15 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:48:20 2008. He only has from sometime in 2002 until the end of the bus service at the end of 2003. This was right after 9/11. The airline industry took a big hit, and the number of people flying dropped by a lot. It wasn't until maybe 2006 that at least one airport I examined was close to returning to pre 9/11 levels of activity. As such, a trend line consisting of just 2002 and 2003 is totally inaccurate of what the actual growth would be after recovery from 9/11.He has all the way back 10 years, to 1998 It won't let you direct link, so click "1998", then Scroll to "Ground Activities": http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/traffic/coverfram.HTM AirTrain is not the hindrance. The inequity/$5 fare is. There is no "inequity". Your OPINION does not hold up to the FACTS which show otherwise, that Airtrain has increased subway-airport ridership. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 15:00:05 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:49:44 2008. I'm not sure of how much shifted vs left.Right, but it certainly hasn't decreased in the years since. It's at the same or better levels, even after having many people shift initially from the A to the E, depending on which was more convenient. They had a choice once Jamaica opened, whereas before they HAD to go to HB if they were using the subway. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 15:21:37 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 12:04:38 2008. Even for those with access to an auto and being dropped off at the airport, those coming from Brooklyn would find that the most direct route and least traffic would involve exiting the Belt at Cross Bay and being dropped off at the Howard Beach station.Getting from the Belt Parkway to Coleman Square involves making a lot of turns on narrow residential streets with a lot of stop signs. It's also hard to find if you aren't familiar with the area. I can't see a lot of people doing that. How can that be? You have argued strenuously that the charge at Howard Beach is a pedestrian toll and not a rail fare. I agree, because the charge is made to people who cross the line whether or not they ride the Airtrain or simply decide to wander around the parking lot. How can a pedestrian toll be bad transportation policy? Because it favors drivers over pedestrians and transit riders. You don't buy it? Do you really think HB residents want hundreds or even thousands of cars per day exiting the Belt at Cross Bay and turning Coleman Square into an impromptu Kiss-and-Ride? That's the first logical argument I've heard in favor of charging for entry at Howard Beach. However, in addition the difficulties accessing HB noted above, the same could be accomplished by charging people a subway fare to enter the station and still maintain a free transfer to AirTrain, or by charging all AirTrain riders, including parkers, equally. The other reason presented was that there was no reason to build a second station in the long-term lot other than to serve the subway station. They currently use shuttle buses to serve the outer reaches of the lot and could certainly extend those shuttles to serve the small section of parking near where the HB subway station is. To the extent that the line cost more to go and additional 0.3 miles (some of it over swampland) and to build another station, why shouldn't those for whom it was built specially contribute more? Not only would not extending AirTrain to the subway sever the existing connection from the subway to the airport, I also don't think a single station would adequately serve a parking lot that size. The number of people arriving at JFK via public transit has tripled (!) since the AirTrain was built. I assume that includes trips coming from Jamaica. The real test is how much growth there has been at Howard Beach. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 15:32:42 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 15:21:37 2008. That's the first logical argument I've heard in favor of charging for entry at Howard Beach.And Charles actually posted that about 800 posts ago! I assume that includes trips coming from Jamaica. The stats appears to break up the stats between HB and Jamaica. But don't forget that initially, some or many of the HB will have shifted to jamaica once there was another choice available which wasn't there prior when HB was the only subway access. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Thu Mar 6 15:53:07 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:50:59 2008. The great, obnoxious, mind reader strikes again. How do you know whether he has read it or not.Simple fact is YOU DON'T. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 16:59:03 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 15:32:42 2008. The stats appears to break up the stats between HB and Jamaica.I was referring to his citation that transit ridership to the airport has "tripled." Certainly not on at Howard Beach. But don't forget that initially, some or many of the HB will have shifted to jamaica once there was another choice available which wasn't there prior when HB was the only subway access. Inconsequential. AirTrain to Jamaica is a premium service, and it has a service area that the A train did not previously encompass (LIRR). It's also likely that a lot of those riders who switched to the Jamaica branch wouldn't have if they weren't hit with the same $5 for going to Howard Beach. Logical argument #2 for the pedestrian toll - it helps to artificially inflate the ridership numbers for the Jamaica branch to justify the expense! |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 17:01:46 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:57:15 2008. He has all the way back 10 years, to 1998It won't let you direct link, so click "1998", then Scroll to "Ground Activities": There's data back to 1983 in there. Since actual numbers fluctuate with the volume of air travel, they don't mean much. Here's a percentage of total fliers that used the Howard Beach station from 1996 to 2006 (with gaps where data are unavailable): 
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 17:16:58 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 17:01:46 2008. As mentioned, the HB stats currently are not too far off from before AirTrain opened at Howard Beach. That's excellent considering that Jamaica probably cannibalized a portion of HB's users. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 17:40:28 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 17:01:46 2008. It should also be noted that those stats show PRECENTAGE of people using HOWARD BEACH. Those aren't showing actual passenger count numbers. Jamaica sways percentage, as do other factors. Is there a graph available showing actual passenger counts? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 17:55:26 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 17:40:28 2008. It should also be noted that those stats show PRECENTAGE of people using HOWARD BEACH. Those aren't showing actual passenger count numbers. Jamaica sways percentage, as do other factors. Is there a graph available showing actual passenger counts?Like I said, actual passenger counts would fluctuate with airline passenger volume. Percentage is a better comparison. But since you asked... 
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Re: Selecting AirTrain stations,for specialpurpose; was Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Mar 6 18:02:10 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 17:01:46 2008. Which station would you want to use after signing for a crate of female puppies at Fedex' cargo desk?Howard Bitch. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 18:23:47 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 17:01:46 2008. Thanks for making the chart.My initial impression is that, after accounting for seasonality, and discounting the fluctuation just before and just after AirTrain's opening, the HB share has remained steady. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 21:41:11 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 17:55:26 2008. So it is very similar and actually higher (on average) to the counts before than it was before Airtrain (at least post 9/11).But yes, it does fluctuate with airline travel obviously. The reason I wasn't completely comfortable with the "%" is because after Jamaica was added, you added a whole new way in, so that would skew the %, as there is an entire other access point eating up percentage. It certainly doesn't show that AirTrain at Howard Beach has been a hindrance, especially with Jamaica taking a portion of the subway traffic away from Howard beach just by default, as it was another option instantly opened. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 21:46:08 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 18:23:47 2008. Yes, I get the same impression, even though it's hard to get a clearer picture than this, as the Airline industry is a see saw. And no doubt, Jamaica has taken away a portion of Howard Beach's traffic too after AirTrain opened, as an entirely new access point to the subway was opened up. How much, we don't know, but it definitely took something. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 21:53:01 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 21:41:11 2008. So it is very similar and actually higher (on average) to the counts before than it was before Airtrain (at least post 9/11).That's supposed to read that the actual counts are actually very similar after as they were before AirTrain. Somehow I typed "before" twice. Thanks for making the chart too BTW. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 22:16:14 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 15:21:37 2008. Not only would not extending AirTrain to the subway sever the existing connection from the subway to the airport, I also don't think a single station would adequately serve a parking lot that size.Of course it would. Go check out the satellite photos on Yahoo Maps, Google Maps or Mapquest. Nearly nobody actually parks near the Howard Beach station. 90% of the time there are enough spaces in the eastern section of the lot near Lefferts Blvd. The other 10% of the time, they could just run a couple of extra shuttle buses. I assume that includes trips coming from Jamaica. The real test is how much growth there has been at Howard Beach. That is correct. It includes trip from Jamaica, but does not include trips coming from the Q10 and other local buses. As a result, it is somewhat difficult to draw a solid conclusion from any of the data. In short, however -- if 120K people per month were using public transit to the airport via Howard Beach before AirTrain, and shortly after AirTrain service began there were 160K using public transit (80K at Jamaica and 80K at HB), I think it's a safe assumption that there were people who switched from HB to Jamaica as their point of entry. Since that time, HB ridership has gone back up to 120K+ per month (these are also late 2006 stats -- so it could be different now, the trend is pretty clearly upward), so you have about 50% growth in a 3-4 year period at Howard Beach. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 22:38:49 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:00:36 2008. Of course it is more direct. That was my point. All the most direct routes to the airport have no access fees, while the less direct route, the A, has an access fee.And my point is that the more direct the route is, the more it will cost. I don't worry about who gets the fee or what the fee is called. A dollar out is a dollar out. No. I would need to explore other options to encourage Lefferts. But charging the subway riders should not a valid option! Hey, at least you're seeing my point now about why Howard Beach residents might not want a free airtrain in their neighborhood. To some extent, a somewhat similar argument can be made that the Howard Beach subway station -- as a local stop with 20 minute service for much of the day -- would be overwhelmed by passengers if the AirTrain were free. For that reason they need to charge an additional fee so that passengers don't trade a few extra minutes to go via HB in order to save some $$. Having an equal fare from each entry point allows the TA to effectively guide more people towards Jamaica which has more capacity and can better handle the crowds. (I just thought that one up, and it's 3:30 AM where I am, so I haven't really given a lot of thought as to whether it makes any sense -- but if anyone here cares to run it through the ringer while I sleep, knock yourselves out...) They did no such thing. According to you, they built the station just so they could collect revenue there to use elsewhere in the PANYNJ collection of properties. If that's the case, they should not have built past lefferts, and should have left a free shuttle bus from HB to Lefferts. I'm not saying that they did that. I'm saying that it may have been part of their decision making process. I don't really have any idea -- but I give them credit for likely having a reason better than "Ah F--k 'em, make the subway riders pony up a 5-spot" and am trying to speculate on what some of those reasons might be. Remember, you're trying to justify why, unlike any other airport in the country that I know of, people are being charged for the on-property circulator, and unlike any transit station in the world that I know of, people paying for parking at the station have the fare waived, while people walking up to the station have to pay a fare. That's pretty serious. A justification of "we want the revenue" is not good enough. I'm not trying to justify any such thing. I just take a bit of offense to your willingness to jump to a negative conclusion about an organization without having shown any willingness to research or consider alternatives to your own opinion. Not much offense, though. Just enough to poke around and keep the thread going. As respects people riding for free from the parking lot, you don't really know that either. Perhaps long-term parking fees at JFK include a component that is intended to represent the average fare that would be paid on the AirTrain. Something along the lines of -- "assume 1.5 persons per vehicle, so $15 per vehicle of every parking fee collected will be considered AirTrain revenue". I happen to doubt that this is the case, but unless you have a contact inside the PA you don't know that it isn't. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 22:42:36 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:50:26 2008. Given that HB ridership dropped from 120K right before AirTrain to about 80K right after, I think it's a fair assumption that those 40K people "shifted". I doubt that they stopped flying or working.Either way, ridership immediately after AirTrain started has now jumped from 80K to 120K in late 2006, which is an annual growth rate in excess of 10%. I find it difficult to say that transit use is being discouraged when faced with that type of growth. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 22:50:37 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 22:45:48 2008. And ALL airports don't charge a fee for the peoplemover/airtrain if you board it on airport property, except for JFK AirTrain.Nor does JFK. It charges an entry fee to the Airport from one of their entrances. Nobody is actually on airport property until they have paid the fee and walked onto airport property. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 23:57:05 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 22:50:37 2008. You know that. But Chris doesn't. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 00:33:05 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 23:57:05 2008. That's what you comment after Charles' last great posts? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 00:36:47 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 00:33:05 2008. It's true. He knows it's actually a ped toll but you don't. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 00:41:44 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 00:36:47 2008. That's still an opinion.But anyway....what about all the other stuff he called you on, and all the latest developments as your whole stance that fell apart? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 00:45:01 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 22:42:36 2008. Yeah, a $5 ped toll + fare inequity to ride a few feet can't possibly be discouraging. If the $5 ped toll was dropped, you'd see on average only about "5 or 6" additional people per month through HB... |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 00:46:00 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 22:38:49 2008. To some extent, a somewhat similar argument can be made that the Howard Beach subway station -- as a local stop with 20 minute service for much of the day -- would be overwhelmed by passengers if the AirTrain were free. For that reason they need to charge an additional fee so that passengers don't trade a few extra minutes to go via HB in order to save some $$. Having an equal fare from each entry point allows the TA to effectively guide more people towards Jamaica which has more capacity and can better handle the crowds.No, I don't buy that. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 00:46:49 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 22:38:49 2008. Ah F--k 'em, make the subway riders pony up a 5-spot"I actually think this is at least part of the reason. Why not if they can get away with it? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 00:52:17 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 00:45:01 2008. Yeah, all the Jamaica people that left Howard Beach when Jamaica opened will go back to Howard Beach. That makes "sense". |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 00:54:46 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 22:38:49 2008. I'm not trying to justify any such thing. I just take a bit of offense to your willingness to jump to a negative conclusion about an organization without having shown any willingness to research or consider alternatives to your own opinion.Sorry, I couldn't jump to that negative conclusion any faster. The day I found out there would be a $5 fare from HB to ride through the parking lot, my mind was instantly made up. And then later, some time before service started IIRC, when I found out about the fare inequity at HB, it just proved my point a million times over. It's disgusting that a quasi-governmental-bistate-agency would do something like this. And it's almost as bad that they've been able to pull it off for so long now. But that's due in part to my never having lodged any formal complaints. I've just voted with my feet thus far. As respects people riding for free from the parking lot, you don't really know that either. Perhaps long-term parking fees at JFK include a component that is intended to represent the average fare that would be paid on the AirTrain. Something along the lines of -- "assume 1.5 persons per vehicle, so $15 per vehicle of every parking fee collected will be considered AirTrain revenue". That's really stretching it. If they did want to include a charge, then they could just charge per person with fare gates. Since they aren't, it's pretty clear they are not charging people who park for riding airtrain. In fact, the long term rates at all three airports are basically the same, and LGA doesn't have an airtrain, and EWR's airtrain doesn't serve the long term lot. Also, the PA states openly that airtrain is free if you park. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 00:56:02 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 00:41:44 2008. That's still an opinion.No, it is a fact. as your whole stance that fell apart Nothing fell apart. As a result, it is somewhat difficult to draw a solid conclusion from any of the data. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 00:56:44 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 00:52:17 2008. ...................... |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 07:27:24 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 00:56:02 2008. In short, however -- if 120K people per month were using public transit to the airport via Howard Beach before AirTrain, and shortly after AirTrain service began there were 160K using public transit (80K at Jamaica and 80K at HB), I think it's a safe assumption that there were people who switched from HB to Jamaica as their point of entry. Since that time, HB ridership has gone back up to 120K+ per month (these are also late 2006 stats -- so it could be different now, the trend is pretty clearly upward), so you have about 50% growth in a 3-4 year period at Howard Beach. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 07:28:21 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 00:56:44 2008. Is that the flat line of a heart monitor? Good, we have completed this comversation then.... |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 08:51:38 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 07:27:24 2008. As a result, it is somewhat difficult to draw a solid conclusion from any of the data. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 08:52:07 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 07:28:21 2008. No, it was my polite way of saying WTF. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Mar 7 09:00:28 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 08:51:38 2008. It's quite easy to discern which conclusions aren't supported by, or are even contradicted by, the data. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 09:13:44 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Fri Mar 7 09:00:28 2008. Feel free to lay all out, my good man. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 09:13:51 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Fri Mar 7 09:00:28 2008. Feel free to lay it all out, my good man. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 09:15:22 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 08:52:07 2008. And you thionk I didn't realize that?The data speaks for itself, that the outrageous claims are not even nearly as warranted as some make them out to be. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 09:16:33 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 08:51:38 2008. In short, however -- if 120K people per month were using public transit to the airport via Howard Beach before AirTrain, and shortly after AirTrain service began there were 160K using public transit (80K at Jamaica and 80K at HB), I think it's a safe assumption that there were people who switched from HB to Jamaica as their point of entry. Since that time, HB ridership has gone back up to 120K+ per month (these are also late 2006 stats -- so it could be different now, the trend is pretty clearly upward), so you have about 50% growth in a 3-4 year period at Howard Beach. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 09:18:54 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 09:15:22 2008. Yes, I did.No one made any outrageous claims. I haven't seen any proff that HB AirTrain has taken away any significant share from taxis or cars. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 09:19:57 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 09:16:33 2008. As a result, it is somewhat difficult to draw a solid conclusion from any of the data. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 09:35:23 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 09:19:57 2008. You seem to keep forgetting the rest of his post, and keep just pulling one sentence out of context. But of course, you didn't respond to the comments in any of his posts that didn't back up your claims on this topic:In short, however -- if 120K people per month were using public transit to the airport via Howard Beach before AirTrain, and shortly after AirTrain service began there were 160K using public transit (80K at Jamaica and 80K at HB), I think it's a safe assumption that there were people who switched from HB to Jamaica as their point of entry. Since that time, HB ridership has gone back up to 120K+ per month (these are also late 2006 stats -- so it could be different now, the trend is pretty clearly upward), so you have about 50% growth in a 3-4 year period at Howard Beach. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 09:39:55 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 09:18:54 2008. But have readily seen that AirTrain at Howard Beach has been FAR from a flop, as was claimed. Howard Beach access is not only at a slightly higher level than it was before AirTrain HB, it's higher after losing part of it's base to Jamaica. That's pretty impressive in just a few years. In just a few years, it appears to have steady increases each year. And we don't even have the current year's stats. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 09:40:02 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 09:35:23 2008. I don't necessarily agree with his summary. I have the data in an excel spreadsheet and will be looking at it myself. If it backs up his point, then I will admit such.But regardless, the point being made is not that HB AirTrain itself is bad, but that the $5 toll is bad. How much more usage would it see if it were free? That's the hindrance. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 09:41:53 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 09:39:55 2008. No, that hasn't been readily seen. The definition of "FLOP" in this context is not attracting any where near the number of users that it could have if it wasn't robbing people of $5 and wasn't introducing a fare inequity. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Mar 7 09:42:06 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 09:40:02 2008. How much more usage would it see if it were free? That's the hindrance.But that's always a hindrance when you charge a fee/fare. I'm sure that if NYCT didn't have fares, they'd have a huge ridership increase. Same goes for LIRR/NJT/AMTK/etc.... |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Mar 7 09:44:02 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 09:41:53 2008. The definition of "FLOP" in this context is not attracting any where near the number of users that it could have if it wasn't robbing people of $5 and wasn't introducing a fare inequity.Robbery?! Maybe you should file a report with the authorities - 'If you see something, say something.' |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 09:45:07 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 09:40:02 2008. Obviously your claim that the $5 charge is unfounded, as AirTrain has been increasing in ridership even after losing part of it's base to Jamaica. Immediately, once there was another subway access point available, people who the E and Jamaica was more convenient began using the E to Jamaica, since it was the same sort of connection as at HB, and a 10 minute ride to the airport. There is no difference between the two connections, as both get you there in 10 minutes. So it's just a matter of which subway line is easier to access for a particular person...the E or the A (or the J to a lesser extent, but still another option).Dropping or lowering the $5 fare will mostly just cannabilize Jamaica riders to Howard Beach, just as what happened when Jamaica opened to begin with when another choice was available. Having a "free" leg would just be an unbalancing that would eat away at revenues at Jamaica, for those that are taking AirTrain anyway, and found the E more convenient will now lose their no-brainer choice to take the E to Jamaica. It would just unbalance the system. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 09:49:16 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Mar 7 09:41:53 2008. That claim is unfounded. There are no facts to support that OPINION. We have facts however (new information that Charles nicely provided for us) showing the complete opposite of your claim is true. Hard solid facts. You have NOTHING but opinion, and subjective claims. You haven't backed up any of these claims with hard facts. Your biggest argument in this topic is claiming there is a "toll". Great, it's a "toll", a "fee" a "fare", if that is what you want. You can call it whatever you want, but there is absolutely No evidence whatsoever to back up your claims that the HB has been a hinderance. In fact we have stats that show the complete opposite. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 09:51:21 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Fri Mar 7 09:44:02 2008. Yes, outrageus words and descriptions have been used to discribe his subjective claim throughout this thread. That's usually a tactic of debaters that have no solid facts to back up their opinions and claims. There would be no reason to use such words if there were facts to back up his claim. |
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