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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:51:13 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 06:02:52 2008. "Id imagine", that's just the point.How does that make it any different? It was advertised as "The Train to the Plane. But people arriving at Howard Beach via the AirTrain only saw "JFK Express Bus" on the old maps just like today it says "AirTrain" in the same exact spot. It doesn't say anything about an additional $2. The parallel between the $2 [in uninflated 1970's and 80's dollars] bus and the $5 AirTrain is identical. In both cases, "A Train" people had to pay a fee use that method of getting to the terminals. There was no other choice at Howard Beach but to use that $2 bus. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:52:20 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:51:13 2008. But people arriving at Howard Beach via the AirTrain only saw "JFK Express Bus"Haha, I meant "via the A Train", not AirTrain. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:55:11 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 06:02:11 2008. Well then, where was the "free version" of that bus to bring you to the terminals? Arriving via the A (or C/H) at Howard beach still required you to get to the terminals. You had to take that $2 bus, or you weren't going to the airport. How is that different than today? It doesn't matter WHO was running it (and who is the third party, I thought the MTA was running it)? And either way, it doesn't matter who was running it, there was no free alternative then either from HB to the terminals. It cost $2 [in uninflated 1970's/80's dollars] to get there in the exact same location. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 07:55:59 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 06:15:14 2008. wow, it's not a value judgment. look at every other airport in the country. can you do that? try real hard.Conformance to the revenue-collecting practices of others is certainly a value, and you're making judgment involving that value. Hence, you are making.......a value judgment! |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:56:24 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 06:00:52 2008. In your mind it's not bull. But where was the free alternative to the $2 bus? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:57:03 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 06:00:06 2008. Ask them also to expain how it's not a big deal that you make it out to be. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 08:02:45 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 06:16:29 2008. it only costs money to enter airport property.Not true. I can get on to airport property at no charge and ride Airtrain. Just not at Howard Beach if I don't fall under an exception, because that would make revenue collection efforts of the $5 access fee - for which there exist a variety of reasons - impractical. You've responded - when you were arguing more lucidly, anyway - that this counsels in favor of eliminating the access fee at Howard Beach. But your reasons for this were nil, other than your opinion that it's 'bad transportation policy'. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 08:03:59 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed Mar 5 00:35:32 2008. The money they were recieving to use for it could only be used for an AIRPORT system, there was some stipulation than non-airport people couldn't benefit from the entire AirTrain system, and that had something to do with the funding for it. That's also why no station could be built along the Jamaica line, as if there was, someone could use it for "non-airport" use. Technically, as it is, someone living in let's say Far Rockaway "could" use it as a commuter line if they buy ya monthly pass, get on in "Arverne", take the A to howard beach, use their unlimited (which is about a $1 or less if you use it every workday roud trip), travel to Jamaica from Howard beach, and then go to work in Jamaica, or take the subway to "Kew Gardens" to their job or wherever.But aside from the rare few where that commuter may benefit, most of it can only be used by people using the airport, so that did make it's design a bit limited, and that unfortunately was because of the funding stipulations on what kind of system it could be, and who it could serve. However, thankfully, it was built to railroad standards to what I have heard, so feasibly, in the future, if there was a need, or a loophole could be found, it "could" be connected to the subway or LIRR without much structural changes, but the likelihood of that ever happening is slim. So no, hypothetically it "wouldn't have to be torn down" in order to use it as a subway or LIRR extension. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 08:06:36 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 06:17:35 2008. I'll grant you for the sake of argument that it's a 'pedestrian toll'As I said earlier, in the same post that you responded to, but ignored this main aspect of, But what of any interest follows from THAT? I can be of the view of that it IS a 'pedestrian toll', but how do you et from there to the point that the PA is 'greedy', and it's 'UNJUST!'? Answer: you can't, without other (paranoid) premises. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 08:12:40 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Fred G on Wed Mar 5 07:34:02 2008. Actually, I was going to mention that 8th Ave passage (or some of the other passages) in the subway for something in one of these posts.But as to what else you said....yes, about 900 posts ago, I already said this topic was not going anywhere. I said we may as well just agree to disagree 900 posts ago, as I know nothing significanly new would come up since any other time this topic has come up. (Although that $2 bus did come up)...but really, where are we 900 posts later.....exactly where we were 900 posts prior....deadlocked. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 08:16:12 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:56:24 2008. One's own motive power :) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 08:18:41 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 08:02:45 2008. You've responded - when you were arguing more lucidlyActually, I always think that perhaps when this topic comes up, that even though I know a deadlock will occur, that maybe, just maybe I will sway more to the middle on this topic than prior....but every time it does come up, somehow, it sways me further and further away from the middle, and further away from their opinion claims. The AirTrain bashers point has even less value to me in my opinion now, than before this debate this time around. in fact I find it even harder now to accept their claims, as the evidence just isn't there. In fact, in this thread, I have even found more evidence against it (such as the $2 bus). I am perhaps further than ever from budging on this now. Complete Deadlock. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 08:18:59 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 08:03:59 2008. Big problem with 're-capture' is that the Airtrain system is so different. Different propulsion, ZPTO, different control ('signal') system, etc.And looking at it from afar, I just can't see any M7 trainset on it; can you? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 08:23:23 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 08:06:36 2008. But what of any interest follows from THAT?There is no interest after that. After entering Airport property at Howard Beach, there is nothing else to do in the parking lot but take AirTrain to their terminals. There would be no other reason to even enter the airport property at Howard Beach...unless they brought their folding chairs, some snacks, and planned to have a picnic in the parking lot. Anyone entering the parking lot there is only entering to use AirTrain. So it's not a "toll" for pedestrians, by passing to the AirTrain station, it's a "fee" for using the AirTrain to bring them to their terminal. It would only be a toll for someone wanting to enter the parking lot for some other reason. But until someone can show that the Long Term Parking lot is some place to go to tailgate or do some other activity, I am going to assume people are only passing through there to use AirTrain. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 08:27:00 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 08:16:12 2008. Right, due to the fact that a bus is set up different than a train system, yes, you did have the other option at Howard Beach prior, which you don't have now....walking. They took away the option for someone to walk. When the $2 bus was there, people could skip the bus, they were already in the parking lot, so they could begin their trek and walk, which can not be done today.But.....the percentage of people that would actually walk from all the way over there, not to mention even without luggage, forget with luggage has got to be so slim and small, that it's about as significant as one star in the universe. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 08:29:03 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 08:18:59 2008. They couldn't use the same trains, signalling, etc. However, the line infastructure itself was built to allow for heavy rail if so desired. Of course, that would require changing signals, and converting it, but the infastructure itself could be used. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by heypaul on Wed Mar 5 08:31:32 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Train Dude on Tue Mar 4 23:35:00 2008. "This is just another example of a debate over someone's rigidity over semantics." I am vigorishly opposed to your blatant antisemanticism. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 5 08:36:51 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Fred G on Wed Mar 5 07:34:02 2008. PS This does beg questions like what if I forgot my umbrella and used my Metrocard to gain admission to the Subway say at 8th Av and walked underground through a passage and then exited? Fare or Ped Toll?I actually did that once, consciously. The Halloween Parade was going on and I wasn't allowed across 6th Ave at 14th, and I really needed to be on the other side. So I went down into the subway, paid my fare, made my way underground to 7th Ave, and exited there. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 08:37:39 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 5 08:36:51 2008. You pedestrian, you!!! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:52:03 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Fred G on Wed Mar 5 07:34:02 2008. You guys could compromise then and just call it "airport admission" because you have a choice; it's not always a fare because you can walk and it's not always a pedestrian toll because once u ride you cease being a pedestrian. But you do always have to pay to pass that gate so it's admission all of the time.Airport admission is the same thing as a ped toll. You are paying a toll to access (via foot) airport property. That is what I have been saying all along. PS This does beg questions like what if I forgot my umbrella and used my Metrocard to gain admission to the Subway say at 8th Av and walked underground through a passage and then exited? Fare or Ped Toll? That's a fare, as the payment is not required to directly walk between your origin and destination. A free alternative exists. Outside. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:52:46 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 08:12:40 2008. Using the subway to get out of the rain is not the same thing. A free, direct alternative exists - the sidewalk. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:54:01 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 5 08:36:51 2008. Yes, you paid a fare, since walking along the sidewalk/crosswalk is the normal, direct, free alternative. The normal free alternative at HB was gated and a ped toll was instituted. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:55:00 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:29:34 2008. just answer the question.what other transit line, airport related or not, any where in the world, charges a fare but allows parkers to ride for free? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:56:08 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:32:02 2008. I thanked him for understanding that you are accessing the airport, and not just airtrain, by exiting NYCT at HB onto airport property. He understands my point very well. He was asking a question, not being sarcastic, as you thought. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:57:01 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:33:10 2008. no, once you agree that it is a ped toll, the rest falls into place. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:57:45 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:36:49 2008. no, i told you, i still have not read 2 or 3 days worth of posts. are you calling me a liar? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:58:17 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:38:00 2008. Yes, it does. A ped toll is asinine. So once you agree that is a ped toll, it all falls into place. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 09:00:39 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:40:19 2008. no, you must not pay for things that you'd rather be free. the PANYNJ's goal is not to maximize revenue. it is to serve the people. since charging NYCT transferees beings in minimal revenue and there is a minimal cost to carry the NYCT people from HB to Lefferts, charging for the ride from HB to Lefferts does not serve the people. It also forced subway riders to subsidize drivers. It penalizes riding transit. It encourages driving. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 09:01:58 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:41:48 2008. nope. they are accessing the airport, where upon a free circulator is provided. since you don't understand this, while Jtrainloco, Fred G, AlM, and Charles G all do, I'm not going to discuss this with you any further. I'm quite happy that everyone else active in this thread agrees with me on that point. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 09:03:43 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 07:55:59 2008. Yes, I value my money, good transportation policy, and balance, two things that you don't seem to value. Pity. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 09:03:48 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 07:55:59 2008. Yes, I value my money, good transportation policy, and balance, THREE things that you don't seem to value. Pity. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 09:05:42 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 08:02:45 2008. it is the imbalance of drivers and passengers riding for free when subway riders have to pay. either make both pay or make none pay. no where else is there a scenario where some transit riders have to pay and all parkers ride free. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 09:09:05 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 08:06:36 2008. I can be of the view of that it IS a 'pedestrian toll', but how do you et from there to the point that the PA is 'greedy', and it's 'UNJUST!'?Because everyone in every car that parks gets to ride for free, while people coming from the subway each have to pay, for the exact same service. the subway riders are subsidizing the parkers, and not very well. there is an imbalanbce that should be corrected. there are two services being provided by the PA. 1. Parking 2. AirTrain Each service needs to be paid for separately. You should not get the fee for one "waived" (as Chris put it), just because you paid for the other. Everyone, no matter how they arrive, should pay the same. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 09:09:10 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 08:06:36 2008. I can be of the view of that it IS a 'pedestrian toll', but how do you et from there to the point that the PA is 'greedy', and it's 'UNJUST!'?Because everyone in every car that parks gets to ride for free, while people coming from the subway each have to pay, for the exact same service. the subway riders are subsidizing the parkers, and not very well. there is an imbalance that should be corrected. there are two services being provided by the PA. 1. Parking 2. AirTrain Each service needs to be paid for separately. You should not get the fee for one "waived" (as Chris put it), just because you paid for the other. Everyone, no matter how they arrive, should pay the same. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Fred G on Wed Mar 5 09:15:41 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:54:01 2008. No, he paid a pedestrian toll because the normal way across was closed off.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Wed Mar 5 09:26:19 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by heypaul on Wed Mar 5 08:31:32 2008. Wouldn't that make Steve "The Anti-Semantic Semite"??? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Wed Mar 5 09:29:21 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:52:46 2008. I have heard that the PORT AUTHORITY has a hidtory of charging for sidewalk use. When the GW Bridge was first opened they used to charge a toll for the use of the sidewalk. Don't know when it stopped. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 09:31:49 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Fred G on Wed Mar 5 09:15:41 2008. The closure was only temporary. It was more of an inconvenience charge. He also could have just asked the S/A to let him through for free to get to the other side of 6 Av, right? I don't understand why he had to go all the way to 7 Av. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 09:41:57 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 09:09:05 2008. Because everyone in every car that parks gets to ride for free, while people coming from the subway each have to pay, for the exact same service. the subway riders are subsidizing the parkers, and not very well.As has been said multiple times earlier, this is unsupported assertion. Do you know, item-by-item, where the PA's revenues come from, and how its allocations are funded? It could just as easily be the case that long-term parking people are already paying for Airtrain. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 09:48:53 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Mar 5 09:41:57 2008. It could just as easily be the case that long-term parking people are already paying for Airtrain.Nope. You pay per car, not per airtrain rider. Thus, long term parkers are not paying for airtrain. And people dropped off at the Lefferts kiss and ride are walking on for free, too. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:02:08 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:55:00 2008. what other transit line, airport related or not, any where in the world, charges a fare but allows parkers to ride for free?What other airport has a rail connection going through it that would require parking people to pay? It's by design that the paid branch just happens to also pass through the parking lot. They can't charge those people for the train when they already paid for their parking. What airport does that? And again, it's irrelevant if no other airports do anything like JFK or not, each system has it's own unique situations. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:02:12 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:54:01 2008. Yes, you paid a fare, since walking along the sidewalk/crosswalk is the normal, direct, free alternative. The normal free alternative at HB was gated and a ped toll was instituted.Correct, but the only reason anyone has any business walking into there would be because they are about to use Airtrain. There's nothing else to do in the parking lot that they would have any business being in there for. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:02:14 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:52:03 2008. Airport admission is the same thing as a ped toll. You are paying a toll to access (via foot) airport property. That is what I have been saying all alongBut the only reason anyone would be entering there would be to use AirTrain. That's a fare, as the payment is not required to directly walk between your origin and destination. A free alternative exists. Outside. Correct, however, nobody as no business walking in the airport there unless they will be using the airtrain. People are NOT walking to the terminals from that location. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by heypaul on Wed Mar 5 10:02:56 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Wed Mar 5 09:26:19 2008. Wouldn't that make Steve "The Anti-Semantic Semite"??? Yes, it does. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:03:05 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:56:08 2008. Okay, answer what else people have any business walking onto Airport property for in that location if not to ride airtrain? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:04:16 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:57:01 2008. Nothing falls into place. I don't care WHAT you call it, the basic fact is that they are NOT charging you to enter the airport, they are charging you to use AirTrain. There is no other reason people would have ANY business whatsoever to walk through the gate at that location except to ride AirTrain or rob someone's car. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:05:54 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 08:57:45 2008. no, i told you, i still have not read 2 or 3 days worth of posts. are you calling me a liar?That's fine for those 2 or 3 days, but this $2 bus was brought up EVERY day since last Monday, not just "2 or 3 days". Posts all around the $2 bus posts were responded to, all except the $2 bus posts for the entire week. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 10:06:51 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:02:08 2008. What other airport has a rail connection going through it that would require parking people to pay?uh, this one... |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:07:09 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 09:01:58 2008. Unfortunately, it's all in your dreams. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 10:08:03 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:05:54 2008. that is false, chris. |
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