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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Tue Mar 4 20:06:25 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RonInBayside on Tue Mar 4 19:25:54 2008. As long as you don't have a BAD attitude with the clerk, i am sure he can help you out in getting such a card. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Mar 4 20:07:06 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Tue Mar 4 20:06:25 2008. The clerk inside the vending machine, you mean? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:09:51 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Tue Mar 4 19:25:12 2008. Because no service is being provided. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:10:46 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Tue Mar 4 14:08:14 2008. It may not be fairThat's all I'm asking people to understand. Thank you. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:17:08 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Tue Mar 4 19:24:04 2008. The PA built the AirTrain. They build the connection to the A train at Howard Beach.There was already an exit right into the parking lot. They went out of their way to close it. interestingly, I rode AirTrain from Jamaica on Sunday. I noticed that there is now a "10-trip AirTrain Metrocard" that is valid for 180 days and costs $25. I don't think that has been mentioned anywhere in these discussions -- at least I don't recall seeing it. Yeah, it's been around for a while now. It has been mentioned here sporadically. The people have other choices to access the airport for free, if they so choose. Not well known choices. When many people get off the (A) and need to buy AirTrain fare at HB, that's a possible sign that they didn't know there'd be a fare. And once they're there, they don't really have much choice but to pay it. I'm not particularly concerned with any one person's interpretation of the "fairness" of the situation. Fairness is determined by the market -- not by an individual. No, individuals, either acting individually or as a group, can petition authorities like the PANYNJ to make changes to their policies. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:26:35 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 14:01:02 2008. which also parallels the other $2 bus, that prior was also the only bus that subway people had to pay for. It's irrelevant "who" was operating the bus. It was "the" bus that the NYCT people had to use. The Q10 wasn't operated by the MTA or the PA back then either.It is totally relevant, as I am talking about airport circulation, not TTTTP. You keep missing that point. Just as they did when the JFK Express was there. People came via the JFK express, OR the normal subway. The $2 bus fee was waived for the people that arived via the JFK Express. The other subway people had to pay $2 Nope, that was a private service directly related to and part of the MTA. It had nothing to do with the PA, AFAIK. After that service ended, for about 10 years, the PA had no choice but to operate a bus, as "someone" had to do it. They had a choice! Close the exit and don't provide service! But they didn't! They left it open recognizing its value. And why didn't they charge for the bus? Because it's not done anywhere else! Back then they understood. They thankfully replaced that inconvenient bus and replaced it with Airtrain, a much better service, which is much more likely to attract passengers through an all rail connection than a bus at the mercy of conditions and through all weather condition, and schlepping. No, I don't see it as likely to attract significantly higher numbers of passengers who wouldn't have taken the old free shuttle bus. Precedent doesn't amount to oa hill of beans, but even so, there was. It was the $2 bus that the subway people HAD to take to get from the NYCT HB station to their terminals. Doesn't matter who operated it - the PA didn't need to operate it as that service was being done by someone else. Yes precedent matters, and the precedent is that everywhere else in the country this service is free, and that the PA even operated it for free for many years. Not at all, it connects to the free circulator at Federal circle and Terminal 4. It's actually more convenient as once on the free circulator, the airtrain is not at the mercy of looping the entire airport in all kinds of traffic conditions, and signalling. Airtrain just wisks above it. No, it is not more convenient. A one seat ride to your terminal is more convenient. Why should the PA being pushing all the NYCT/MTA bus passengers onto airtrain for free when the PA seems to like to charge transit transferees? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:27:47 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 09:53:05 2008. Unlike when there was a shuttle bus there before Airtrain and subway passengers had to walk into the fence to get that shuttle bus, today that is not necessary as they can walk right from the NYCT station to the AirTrain station, so the hole in the fence is not necessary, unless they wanted to try and evade the fare, for that there is always vicegrips.There's no need for a fare. The free circulator is free. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:38:02 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 14:33:16 2008. Doesn't matter. There are two branches to Airtrain, and a free circulator. It's a paid branch to Jamaica from Federal Circle and a paid branch to HB from Federal Circle. After that connection point, the whole thing is free. Since the HB paid branch runs through the long term lot, it would have been silly to continue using a bus to serve that lot, so they allow access to the PAID Howard Beach branch from that lot. They waive the HB fee for those people that paid for parking there already, as well as anyone that came in their car. The Q10 people was always allowed to circulate the airport (even though the MTA or PA didn't operated that route), so they still can, the only difference is they also let them off to use the convenient AirTrain instead of having the bus circle the whole airport inefficiently. the bus can drop them off (and at Terminal 4) and get out of there. Much more efficient for the passengers, as well as the rest of the route. The kiss and ride people luck out, but that was already discussed.It's in one ear and out the other ear with you, Chris. I just stated facts. And you're denying the facts. The fact is that the line to HB part of the circulator, as it 100% meets the definition of a circulator. So you look utterly ridiculous stating that it's not a circulator when it is. Right, that's why they use the different cards that are available to AirTrain users. Huh? You're changing the subject. Please address my comment in the context. Says who? You? "Free" does not mean better. The AirTrain is much more likely to attract new people than the inconvenient bus it replaced. Just because it was free before, does not mean it has to be free now, especially after adding a much improved way to get to the terminals from there. Furthermore, it was only a 10 year "reprieve" that it was free. It used to be $2 (in uninflated 1970's and 80's dollars) to shuttle by bus between Howard Beach station and the terminals. Somehow you keep conveniently forgetting that. Charing for what should be a free service is not an improvement by any means and it will not significantly attract NEW riders. Yes, the premium service was on the rails, but the bus WAS part of the package as you said. However, for all those that didn't buy the package, they had to pay the $2 fee/fare to ride the shuttle bus. There was no other way to get to the terminals. They weren't walking. Irrelevant. It wasn't an airport circulator. Anyhow, talk to AlM and Charles G. They understand why it is wrong, even if they don't think anyone should necessarily do anything about it. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:50:04 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 10:59:15 2008. it's a ped tollparking lot people do not pay for airtrain the hb branch is a free circulator nowhere else in the country are people charged to ride a free circulator, and the PA knew this back when they ran the bus, but they got greedy, and they successfully pulled one over on everyone |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:51:25 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 11:02:51 2008. i already told you, there are 2 or 3 days of posts i have not read. are you calling me a liar? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:51:50 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Tue Mar 4 09:34:32 2008. no it wasn't |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Mar 4 21:06:30 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:50:04 2008. it's a ped tollNo. Pedestrians are paying to ride Airtrain. parking lot people do not pay for airtrain Nothing more than unproven assertion, unless you know how parking fees are computed and allocated by the PA. the hb branch is a free circulator Wrong again. Or if it is, then it is so just like the Jamaica Branch route. There is only one free route, and it doesn't go to Howard Beach. nowhere else in the country are people charged to ride a free circulator Unproven assertion. the PA knew this back when they ran the bus, Unproven assertion. but they got greedy, Unproven assertion and they successfully pulled one over on everyone WRONG. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Mar 4 21:10:18 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:51:50 2008. OK, then what is your definition of a 'pedestrian toll', and why was the old service not imposition of one, the but present service a 'pedestrian toll'? |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Mar 4 21:14:50 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:17:08 2008. And once they're there, they don't really have much choice but to pay it.Because of men with guns? Because the alternatives aren't published in a wide variety of sources? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:18:12 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Tue Mar 4 19:24:04 2008. Interestingly, I rode AirTrain from Jamaica on Sunday. I noticed that there is now a "10-trip AirTrain Metrocard" that is valid for 180 days and costs $25. I don't think that has been mentioned anywhere in these discussions -- at least I don't recall seeing it.It's been around for a while, actually perhaps even a few years. The AirTrain bashers like to forget it exists, so they don't mention that or the unlimited pass much. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:19:32 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:09:51 2008. The service there being provided is called AirTrain. I am surprised you never heard about it. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Mar 4 21:22:55 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 11:10:42 2008. From Flusing would be easier perhaps, but it really needs to connecto to Jamaica for LIRR service, people are not going to use it freely if they have to transfer at Woodside.Well, thinking down the road, it seems like they'll finish off ESA at some point in the future, we'll say 'before 2020' to be safe. So when ESA is done, you'll have good service from New York, out of both the ESA terminal and NYP. Port Washington Branch service will see increases, we think. If they built to Woodside, that's more LIRR trains serving it, including Main Line trains. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:24:57 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:17:08 2008. There was already an exit right into the parking lot. They went out of their way to close it.Right, to avoid having fare edvaders. It wasn't necessary when the $2 shuttle bus was there, as back then, there was no AirTrain, and people had to go into the lot to use the $2 shuttle bus. To avoid Fare Evaders back then, the JFK Express people got a JFK Express slip to solve the problem of fare evaders. Today, they would have to somehow provide a swipable card to all the parking lot people and their passengers if they were to leave the gate open. The cost of such a fare collection system would probably be greater than the revenue they lose from the Kiss and ride people, so they of course don't do that, and just close the gate at Howard Beach. Not well known choices. When many people get off the (A) and need to buy AirTrain fare at HB, that's a possible sign that they didn't know there'd be a fare. And once they're there, they don't really have much choice but to pay it. Total heresay. There is no evidence that people would rather take the free Q10 instead of the more convenient Airtrain at Howard Beach. There is also no evidence that a significant amount of people expect a ride to be free. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:25:12 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Tue Mar 4 21:10:18 2008. a ped toll is being charged for walking from one place to another without receiving any services. with the $2 bus, which is totally irrelevant to AirTrain, you paid $2 for the MTA to shuttle you to the terminal. upon leaving NYCT, you had to pay $2, and you had to get on the MTA bus, from what was posted. With airtrain, you have to pay $5, but then you can go into the parking lot and not board airtrain, just like you could go into the parking lot while the PA ran the free shuttle bus circulator. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:33:05 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:18:12 2008. nope. it is no use to the people who don't want to pay $5 for airtrain but get forced to anyhow. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:34:00 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:19:32 2008. no, that service is free. it only costs money to enter airport property. one on the property, you can ride airtrain for free just like EVERYONE ELSE. Again, this is the reality, not the intent. You don't seem to get that. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:35:03 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Tue Mar 4 21:14:50 2008. exactly. once at Howard Beach, you have no choice but to pay the toll to get onto the property. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:37:19 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:24:57 2008. Right, to avoid having fare edvaders.No, in order to charge the ped toll. there is no fare to evade. it is a free circulator, just like the old shuttle buses. Total heresay. There is no evidence that people would rather take the free Q10 instead of the more convenient Airtrain at Howard Beach. Uh, free is always better than pay. There is also no evidence that a significant amount of people expect a ride to be free. I just gave it. My own observations. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:39:24 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:26:35 2008. It is totally relevant, as I am talking about airport circulation, not TTTTP. You keep missing that point.I am not talking about the JFK Express either. I am talking about the $2 shuttle bus that was REQUIRED to take for the subway people coming out of Howard Beach. Anyone not paying for the TTTTP had to pay a $2 fee to take the shuttle bus from Hoaward Beach to the terminals. Nope, that was a private service directly related to and part of the MTA. It had nothing to do with the PA, AFAIK. I don't know who ran the bus, but it's not relevant. THAT bus was the only way for normal subway people from the A (and then the C and H too) to get to the terminal. They HAD to take the $2 bus from there. They had a choice! Close the exit and don't provide service! But they didn't! They left it open recognizing its value. And why didn't they charge for the bus? Because it's not done anywhere else! Back then they understood. Because there was no premium service there anymore. The TTTTP was gone. "Something" had to bring people from the HB station to the terminals, it's not conductive to walking that distance. So for about 10 years or so, people lucked out and had a reprieve after the $2 bus that used to run there was free for some years. That $2 bus used to be the only way. Your famous "precedent". No, I don't see it as likely to attract significantly higher numbers of passengers who wouldn't have taken the old free shuttle bus. Source? I would like to see the AirTrain stats Vs the old Subway bus stats. Seamless rail service traditionally is more reliable and more attractive than a bus. Really, I would love to see the stats. Until we see the stats, you can't use that card either (that people rather have the free bus). Yes precedent matters, and the precedent is that everywhere else in the country this service is free, and that the PA even operated it for free for many years. The rest of the country is irrelevant, as each market, location, and situation is different. Further more, if you want PRECEDENT, there was a $2 shuttle bus there for many years. Regardless of who ran it, the $2 bus was the ONLY way for A (as well as C & H) train people to get from Howard Beach to the terminals. You keep forgetting that bus. That damn fly in your whole speil. No, it is not more convenient. A one seat ride to your terminal is more convenient. Yes, but we don't have that either. That unfortuantely wasn't done. But a two seat rail connection is always more convenient (and is in this case for sure) than a rail to a bus connection. Why should the PA being pushing all the NYCT/MTA bus passengers onto airtrain for free when the PA seems to like to charge transit transferees? The PA? When did the PA start running the Q10? The Q10 always had access to the airport, it's no different now than before the MTA owned it, and before there was AirTrain. the only difference now is that they dump them all out (more ocnveniently) to the circulator. The bus is no longer at the mercy of the traffic, and all weather conditions (for passengers) as it was when it had to circle the whole airport. The bus can now get out of the airport much faster than before. If you want to reroute the Q10 to Howard Beach instead instead of going down lefferts, be my guest, but I can't see how that would be a change for the better. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:40:18 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:27:47 2008. Right, the CIRCULATOR part of AirTrain is free. However the HB and Jamaica branches of AirTrain are fee services. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:49:09 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:38:02 2008. It's in one ear and out the other ear with you, Chris. I just stated facts. And you're denying the facts. The fact is that the line to HB part of the circulator, as it 100% meets the definition of a circulator. So you look utterly ridiculous stating that it's not a circulator when it is.I am not the one that looks ridiculous with this. I told you more than a week ago in this very thread and about 800 posts ago that I wasn't backing down on this, and there was nothing that was going to change my mind on it, at least not all the stuff that has already been presented. I offered to truce to stop this conversation 800 posts ago because we were deadlocked. It's not a circulator, it's a paid branch of Airtrain. Huh? You're changing the subject. Please address my comment in the context You said they "regular riders" were paying $5. I said that's why they have the unlimited cards and the 10 trip cards. Regular users are NOT paying $5 for it. Charing for what should be a free service is not an improvement by any means and it will not significantly attract NEW riders. An opinion statement. Please provide figures for this statement. Without those figures before and after AirTrain, you can't use that card any more than I can then. Traditionally however Rail is more able to attract new riders than a bus. Until we have the stats however, your statement can not be used any more than mine would be able to. Irrelevant. It wasn' an airport circulator. It's very relevant, and even more so since you love the "precedent" of it (which I didn't even want to use as I didn't feel the past is relevant on present fare structure, however, since you "had" to use "precedent", here it is. That $2 bus was the ONLY way for the A train people to get to their terminal from Howard Beach, and was for a longer time than the "free" bus was. Anyhow, talk to AlM and Charles G. They understand why it is wrong, even if they don't think anyone should necessarily do anything about it. Don't bring them into this. they weren't more inclined to find all your statements correct than I was. They only accepted the "pedestiran toll" part of your rampage. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:54:59 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:51:25 2008. The $2 bus from Howard Beach was first mentioned a week ago Monday (yesterday) Feb 25th, and many times after that, but that's okay. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:57:34 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:39:24 2008. I am not talking about the JFK Express either. I am talking about the $2 shuttle bus that was REQUIRED to take for the subway people coming out of Howard Beach. Anyone not paying for the TTTTP had to pay a $2 fee to take the shuttle bus from Hoaward Beach to the terminals.The bus was part of MTA's service to the airport terminals. It has nothing to do with the PA, AFAIK. So it is irrelevant to the free shuttle bus circulator from HB and the free airtrain circulator from HB. The PA? When did the PA start running the Q10? The Q10 always had access to the airport, it's no different now than before the MTA owned it, and before there was AirTrain. the only difference now is that they dump them all out (more ocnveniently) to the circulator. The bus is no longer at the mercy of the traffic, and all weather conditions (for passengers) as it was when it had to circle the whole airport. The bus can now get out of the airport much faster than before. If you want to reroute the Q10 to Howard Beach instead instead of going down lefferts, be my guest, but I can't see how that would be a change for the better. It's really simple. The bus didn't just add a stop at Fed Circle for the convenience of the passengers to get on airtrain. It was forced to STOP making stops at all the terminals except one. That is very INCONVENIENT for people who value a one seat ride. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:59:19 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:39:24 2008. why should people have to pay $5 to walk from one part of city property open to the public to another part of city property open to the public? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:59:52 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:40:18 2008. no, everything is a free circulator except for the Jamaica branch. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 22:00:45 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Tue Mar 4 21:22:55 2008. Yes, I can agree with that, but then AirTrain would have to somehow service Woodside. I don't see LIRR people using it efficiently if they have to take a train to Jamaica, then a potential transfer at Jamaica for a train to Woodside (as many LIRR trains skip Woodside), and then another transfer at Woodside for a Port Washington Train, and then yet ANOTHEr transfer to AirTrain. That's not happening even without luggage. Better than what we have now (which is nothing), but certainly not an efficient or attractive way to do it. I feel one leg of LGA's AirTrain would have to connect at Jamaica. But then another would be necessary, as Jamaica is not really convenient for most Manhattan people or even viable for Brooklyn or Queens, as many people would have to bypass Lauguardia jut to come back via AirTrain. I feel there would also have to be some better access from the West, perhaps with a branch feeding to Astoria Blvd on the N, or perhaps even Queens Plaza or some location in LIC. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 22:04:14 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:25:12 2008. a ped toll is being charged for walking from one place to another without receiving any services. with the $2 bus, which is totally irrelevant to AirTrain, you paid $2 for the MTA to shuttle you to the terminal. upon leaving NYCT, you had to pay $2, and you had to get on the MTA bus, from what was posted. With airtrain, you have to pay $5, but then you can go into the parking lot and not board airtrain, just like you could go into the parking lot while the PA ran the free shuttle bus circulator.That's complete bull. Connected to the JFK Express or not, it was the ONLY way to get from Howard Beach to the terminals. If you came on an A Train back when the $2 shuttle bus was there, you HAD to take that bus, just as you have to take AirTrain now at $5 (or some reduced rate). |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 22:06:08 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:34:00 2008. I get it just fine. Just like the $2 bus in the past that you "had to walk onto Airport property to take", today you have to take AirTrain. There IS no difference between the former $2 REQUIRED bus for A train people, or the AirTrain today. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 22:06:34 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:49:09 2008. Don't bring them into this. they weren't more inclined to find all your statements correct than I was. They only accepted the "pedestiran toll" part of your rampage.Oh I will bring them in. And I just did. The pedestrian toll part of my argument IS my entire argument. Once you agree to that, everything else falls into place. I'm happy having them agree with me. You and the traninarefun guy are lost causes. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 22:06:50 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:54:59 2008. already told you, there are 2 or 3 days of posts i have not read. are you calling me a liar? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 22:07:14 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:35:03 2008. exactly. once at Howard Beach, you have no choice but to pay the toll to get onto the property - just like the old $2 bus in the JFK Express days, which A train people also had to take. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by J trainloco on Tue Mar 4 22:11:45 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 21:40:18 2008. Having now taken a class on Transportation and architecture, I've seen a whole different viewpoint of the whole AIRtrain project. People who are either architects or planners (or studying to become one) generally find AIRtrain to be a poor solution to airport access. I now tend to agree with them. The AIRtrain doesn't connect particularly well with other services (at Jamaica or HB), and virtually everyone agreed that while it was far cheaper than any other method of travel, a 5 dollar fee for a circulator was absurd. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 22:11:54 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:37:19 2008. No, in order to charge the ped toll. there is no fare to evade.No, it's a charge for AirTrain. it is a free circulator, just like the old shuttle buses. You are forgetting the $2 bus. I just gave it. My own observations. To be commended. Be we have no hard evidence of this other than biased observation. Let's get some tangible hard evidence, and we could submit that. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Mar 4 22:16:44 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:25:12 2008. upon leaving NYCT, you had to pay $2, and you had to get on the MTA bus, from what was posted.I think you're misunderstanding what was said. With airtrain, you have to pay $5, but then you can go into the parking lot and not board airtrain, just like you could go into the parking lot while the PA ran the free shuttle bus circulator. Just like you can pay for a monthly ticket on LIRR and never ride any trains. If you want to give money away for no service, that's YOUR doing, not the PA's. You CAN, if you like, waste your money and not board Airtrain. Just like you CAN swipe your pay-per-ride metrocard on PATH or NYCT and not board any bus or train. But you've shown nothing by that example. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 22:16:47 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:57:34 2008. The bus was part of MTA's service to the airport terminals. It has nothing to do with the PA, AFAIK. So it is irrelevant to the free shuttle bus circulator from HB and the free airtrain circulator from HB.It's completely relevent. You can't disregard the ONLY bus that was operated for A train passengers for the whole run of the JFK Express, which was probably about 13 years. THAT was the ONLY bus, and completely relevent, regardless of who operated it. It was the only way for the subway riders to get to the terminals from that NYCT HB station. It's really simple. The bus didn't just add a stop at Fed Circle for the convenience of the passengers to get on airtrain. It was forced to STOP making stops at all the terminals except one. That is very INCONVENIENT for people who value a one seat ride. It also makes the bus's run through the airport much more efficient and faster, which helps the entire bus route. It's redundant to have the bus circulate the airport to the same terminals that the AirTrain does also efficiently. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 22:18:55 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:59:19 2008. why should people have to pay $5 to walk from one part of city property open to the public to another part of city property open to the public?To ride AirTrain to take them to the terminals. They are not walking from HB to the terminals. They are not walking to that other area to just stand there and walk. They are walking there to RIDE THAT TRAIN. Why should people have to pay $2 to walk from one part of city property open to the public to another part of city property open to the public when taking a subway train? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 22:21:01 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 22:06:34 2008. They don't agree with a large part of your argument. They agree that it doesn't matter. This whole mountain out of something that is not a big deal.People arrive at HB station. All they want to do is get on the train that will take them to their terminal. It's not brain surgery. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 22:22:44 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 22:06:50 2008. already told you, there are 2 or 3 days of posts i have not read. are you calling me a liar?But that first post about the $2 bus was made more than a week ago, and repeated at least a few times every day since. Other comments and points were responded to every day since that post, except posts regarding to the $2 bus, until yesterday. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Mar 4 22:24:23 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:35:03 2008. One does not have to pay the $5 access fee at Howard Beach to go to JFK. Bus service goes to JFK. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 22:24:54 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by J trainloco on Tue Mar 4 22:11:45 2008. Oh I totally agree that AirTrain leaves MUCH to be desired. I don't think it was at all designed as well as it could have to connect to the existing subway lines. But that is what was done, for better or worse. And I feel it is way better than that which it replace. Could it be better or different? Absolutely, but it's also not the evil entity that it's made out to be here either. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Mar 4 22:25:43 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:33:05 2008. it is no use to the people who don't want to pay $5 for airtrain but get forced to anyhow.Who is FORCED to pay for Airtrain? |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Mar 4 22:27:50 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 21:34:00 2008. it only costs money to enter airport property.It does NOT cost money to enter airport property in all circumstances, even to ride Airtrain. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by J trainloco on Tue Mar 4 22:32:48 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 22:24:54 2008. lol. I wouldn't call it evil. I WOULD say that it's a victim of beaurocracy at its finest. Multiple agencies involved with restricted money and a complex project. The result is to be expected. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Mar 4 22:38:25 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 4 22:00:45 2008. I don't see LIRR people using it efficiently if they have to take a train to Jamaica, then a potential transfer at Jamaica for a train to Woodside (as many LIRR trains skip Woodside)After ESA is operational, I think more trains will make the stop at Woodside. I concede that Airtrain would have more connections at Woodside, but the route from Flushing is more obvious to pull off, I think, with little NIMBYism potential. But I understand why they're hoping for Woodside. If it comes down to a choice between Flushing and no Airtrain, I hope they go for Flushing. LIRR operates a decent amount of service on the Pt Washington Branch, plus if they used LIRR ROW to get Airtrain out of Downtown Flushing, put an LGA stop at Shea Stadium, change the station name to LGA Airtrain/Citifield, and run a NYP-LGA Airtrain shuttle that makes the intermediate stop at Woodside. I'm just trying to cut costs, if possible, and the dedicated shuttle seems it could really score convenience points. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Mar 4 22:51:22 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 22:06:34 2008. OK, I will grant you, arguendo, that Airtrain at Howard Beach can involve a 'pedestrian toll' for people boarding Airtrain from the Howard Beach neighborhood, who walked into the Airtrain system from there.But what of any interest follows from THAT? |
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