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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 10:08:58 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 22:20:52 2008. You misstate the purpose of the Port Authority. Their mission is clearly stated on their website, specifically it is:"To identify and meet the critical transportation infrastructure needs of the bistate region's businesses, residents, and visitors: providing the highest quality, most efficient transportation and port commerce facilities and services that move people and goods within the region, providing access to the rest of the nation and to the world, and strengthening the economic competitiveness of the New York-New Jersey metropolitan region." There is nothing in that mission statement that is contradictory to charging a fee to use the walkway between Howard Beach and JFK. Charging subway riders an access fee to the airport provides the subway riders with no extra service over what the free riders get and is not in the best interest of the people. Subway riders are not charged an access fee to the airport. Plenty of subway riders enter the airport via the Q10 bus, and pay no fee. There is no price discrimination against people who have used the subway as part of their journey to the airport. People who use the entrance to the airport from Howard Beach are charged a fee. It doesn't matter whether or not they used the subway. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 10:16:34 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 10:08:58 2008. Subway riders are not charged an access fee to the airport. Plenty of subway riders enter the airport via the Q10 bus, and pay no fee. There is no price discrimination against people who have used the subway as part of their journey to the airport.You know what I mean. Subway riders taking the most direct route. Via HB. But if anything, that just shows more inequity. Why are some MTA riders charged and other MTA riders not charged? There is nothing in that mission statement that is contradictory to charging a fee to use the walkway between Howard Beach and JFK. Not true. No where in there does it say to maximize revenue. This pedestrian toll / fare inequity only does that - maximize revenue. It does not "To identify and meet the critical transportation infrastructure needs of the bistate region's businesses, residents, and visitors" ... "providing access to the rest of the nation and to the world, and strengthening the economic competitiveness of the New York-New Jersey metropolitan region." |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 10:29:05 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 00:07:00 2008. Can we stop this, or do we keep having to post in this thread until one of us dies and is buried some decades from now?Way 2 :) |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 10:32:10 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 00:11:49 2008. You wouldn't like it if some people got to ride the LIRR for free.Park & Ride people should get to ride LIRR for free. If you're walking or connecting by bus or subway, you have to pay for the train. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 10:33:46 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 23:32:53 2008. For whatever reason, they chose to handle it this way. it's not a "conspiracy".No, it isn't a conspiracy, but making driving more attractive than transit is counter to the mission of a transit-accessible airport. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Thu Mar 6 10:38:07 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 00:11:49 2008. But, some people do ride the LIRR for free. Faulty argument |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 10:40:27 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 00:20:15 2008. Fine, so you just meant the DC Metro itself? Then why did you bring that even up? It has nothing to do with the airport? The LIRR charges you to park at many stations. That statement was completely irrelevant then.It's completely relevant, because the LIRR (and DC Metro) charges you regardless of whether you parked or not. Similarly, other airport circulators are free, regardless of whether you parked or not. Only AirTrain has the inequity of being free if you park or are dropped off, but an extra fare if you take transit. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 10:48:48 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 10:16:34 2008. You know what I mean. Subway riders taking the most direct route. Via HB. But if anything, that just shows more inequity. Why are some MTA riders charged and other MTA riders not charged?It has nothing to do with being an MTA rider or not. Take the MTA out of the picture. People using the entrance at Howard Beach are charged. People using the entrances via the highway or from local streets are not charged. The charge is an access fee -- or as you call it, a pedestrian toll. In some respects, it is like a highway toll -- those taking the most direct route will pay the toll, those using a less direct route (on local streets) will not. As respects inequity, life is full of it. Why do you choose to object to it so strenuously here? Some people drive to the airport and park in the long-term lot and get a space right near the AirTrain entrance. Others end up parking further away and must wait for a shuttle bus to take them to the AirTrain station or walk with their luggage. Yet they pay the same parking fee (the person further away might even pay more, if the additional time to get to his car were to tick him up into the next per hour or per day bracket). Inequity? Absolutely. Not true. No where in there does it say to maximize revenue. This pedestrian toll / fare inequity only does that - maximize revenue. It does not "To identify and meet the critical transportation infrastructure needs of the bistate region's businesses, residents, and visitors" ... "providing access to the rest of the nation and to the world, and strengthening the economic competitiveness of the New York-New Jersey metropolitan region." The entrance at Howard Beach provides access to the airport. That is entirely within the mission of the PA. There are no restrictions in their mission or in their charter that prevent them from charging for the access that they provide. From my reading of this thread, you are the only one who is claiming that the PA makes this charge solely to "maximize revenue", and you've provided nothing to support that other than your opinion. Other logical reasons for the charge have been offered, but you have rejected them out of hand, stating that you simply believe that their reason is to maximize revenue. Finally, what is wrong with maximizing revenue? The PA charter requires it to be self supporting. Why shouldn't they maximize revenue -- especially since it only goes out the other end to benefit travelers? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 11:00:44 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Thu Mar 6 10:38:07 2008. No, you know what I mean. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 11:01:34 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 10:40:27 2008. Thank you. |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Thu Mar 6 11:07:15 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 11:00:44 2008. No I don't you must be specific. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 11:12:28 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 10:48:48 2008. As respects inequity, life is full of it. Why do you choose to object to it so strenuously here?The purpose of AirTrain was to promote the use of transit to the airport. The fare structure discourages it. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 11:13:04 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 10:48:48 2008. I am not commenting on this topic anymore, as I just can't anymore....But I had to say after I red your post is, "Great post Charles", as it is a very rational and middle of the road post, and full of good observations. Thanks. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 11:14:08 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 10:48:48 2008. In some respects, it is like a highway toll -- those taking the most direct route will pay the toll, those using a less direct route (on local streets) will not.No, the most direct route is dropping off at the kiss and ride, Fed Circle, or the Central Terminal Area. Taking the A to HB, getting dropped off at HB, or walking to HB is not very direct. The latter three are all minor in terms of use and convenience compared to the first three, yet the first three see no charge. It has nothing to do with being an MTA rider or not. Take the MTA out of the picture. People using the entrance at Howard Beach are charged. People using the entrances via the highway or from local streets are not charged. Not true. When there is a G.O on the (A), and (A) riders are bused from Rockaway Blvd to HB, they are brought in through the Lefferts gate and dropped off on airport property at the HB station. They then are supposed to walk straight onto the HB (A) platform so that they can still be forced to pay the ped toll. As respects inequity, life is full of it. Why do you choose to object to it so strenuously here? Dunno, maybe because I have a strong involvement in transportation planning... Some people drive to the airport and park in the long-term lot and get a space right near the AirTrain entrance. Others end up parking further away and must wait for a shuttle bus to take them to the AirTrain station or walk with their luggage. Yet they pay the same parking fee (the person further away might even pay more, if the additional time to get to his car were to tick him up into the next per hour or per day bracket). Inequity? Absolutely. No comparison. It makes sense that the spaces are first come, first serve, and that the AirTrain can't serve every space equally. What doesn't make sense is the inequity at the HB station. The entrance at Howard Beach provides access to the airport. That is entirely within the mission of the PA. There are no restrictions in their mission or in their charter that prevent them from charging for the access that they provide. Charging for that access is contrary to their charter since it is bad transportation policy. From my reading of this thread, you are the only one who is claiming that the PA makes this charge solely to "maximize revenue", and you've provided nothing to support that other than your opinion. Yes, it's just a guess, because I can't figure out any other reason. That are maximizing revenue by charging a shady fee that not many people pay and for that and other reasons, they have not been called to task on it. Other logical reasons for the charge have been offered, but you have rejected them out of hand, stating that you simply believe that their reason is to maximize revenue. Something about the HB residents not wanting it? I don't buy that. What other logical reasons were presented? Finally, what is wrong with maximizing revenue? The PA charter requires it to be self supporting. Why shouldn't they maximize revenue -- especially since it only goes out the other end to benefit travelers? They should maximize revenue without blatant inequity and without blatantly poor transportation planning. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 11:15:22 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Thu Mar 6 11:07:15 2008. Yes you do. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 11:38:36 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 11:12:28 2008. The purpose of AirTrain was to promote the use of transit to the airport. The fare structure discourages it.How so? More than 120,000 people per month are riding from Howard Beach. This is essentially the same number that were using the old shuttle bus connection via Howard Beach. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 12:04:38 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 11:14:08 2008. No, the most direct route is dropping off at the kiss and ride, Fed Circle, or the Central Terminal Area. Taking the A to HB, getting dropped off at HB, or walking to HB is not very direct. The latter three are all minor in terms of use and convenience compared to the first three, yet the first three see no charge.Those are certainly not the most direct routes for people without access to an automobile. For those coming on the subway from Lower Manhattan or Brooklyn the subway to HB is the most direct access. Even for those with access to an auto and being dropped off at the airport, those coming from Brooklyn would find that the most direct route and least traffic would involve exiting the Belt at Cross Bay and being dropped off at the Howard Beach station. Charging for that access is contrary to their charter since it is bad transportation policy. How can that be? You have argued strenuously that the charge at Howard Beach is a pedestrian toll and not a rail fare. I agree, because the charge is made to people who cross the line whether or not they ride the Airtrain or simply decide to wander around the parking lot. How can a pedestrian toll be bad transportation policy? Yes, it's just a guess, because I can't figure out any other reason. That are maximizing revenue by charging a shady fee that not many people pay and for that and other reasons, they have not been called to task on it. Why is the fee "shady". Nobody is or was hiding it. Something about the HB residents not wanting it? I don't buy that. What other logical reasons were presented? You don't buy it? Do you really think HB residents want hundreds or even thousands of cars per day exiting the Belt at Cross Bay and turning Coleman Square into an impromptu Kiss-and-Ride? The other reason presented was that there was no reason to build a second station in the long-term lot other than to serve the subway station. They currently use shuttle buses to serve the outer reaches of the lot and could certainly extend those shuttles to serve the small section of parking near where the HB subway station is. To the extent that the line cost more to go and additional 0.3 miles (some of it over swampland) and to build another station, why shouldn't those for whom it was built specially contribute more? They should maximize revenue without blatant inequity and without blatantly poor transportation planning. The blatant inequity argument holds no water. There are inequities everywhere, and you don't give any rationale why the PA would have malicious intent towards people who want to use the entrance from Howard Beach. The "poor transportation planning" argument holds no water either. The number of people arriving at JFK via public transit has tripled (!) since the AirTrain was built. AirTrain JFK is probably the biggest public transit home run in the Metro Area since Midtown Direct. You might argue that they could have done even better, but the argument that it is "poor transportation planning" is, quite frankly, laughable. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Mar 6 12:07:22 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 11:12:28 2008. Not judging from the number of riders they are getting. If the purpose was to discourage ridership the PA is doing a piss-poor job of that. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 12:29:37 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 12:04:38 2008. Wow, Charles, another great post! I couldn't improve on it! |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 12:37:18 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 11:38:36 2008. More than 120,000 people per month are riding from Howard Beach. This is essentially the same number that were using the old shuttle bus connection via Howard Beach.Exactly! It's not promoting transit any better than the bus was! Imagine how many people would use it if it was a free MetroCard transfer! It looks like I've been correct all along, that the people using HB are the same people who would have used it with the shuttle buses. These people either don't know about the ped toll, or know but don't care because it is still the best option for them. As such, the PA is able to collect revenue from everyone who used to use this connection for free. But it hasn't attracted any new users! And that was supposed to be the point! So the PA improved the service and started charing $5 for it, but for what point? No more people are using it than used the free shuttle bus! So if they had just left the free bus, it would be the same as today. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 12:38:05 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Mar 6 11:12:28 2008. Exactly. As Charles G just posted, the HB branch is not promoting the use of transit at all. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 13:09:46 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 12:04:38 2008. Those are certainly not the most direct routes for people without access to an automobile.they can use taxi / car service. Even for those with access to an auto and being dropped off at the airport, those coming from Brooklyn would find that the most direct route and least traffic would involve exiting the Belt at Cross Bay and being dropped off at the Howard Beach station. Looking at the map, it looks to be pretty similar either way. With one you have more local streets but less distance, with the other you stay on the highway a little but longer and have all major roads right to the Lefferts station, but it is a longer distance. And plus once you get out of the car, I'd think Lefferts is better. You go right into the front door of the airtrain station and right up the escalator. Where as at HB you have to get upstairs and then take the walk to the airtrain station. How can a pedestrian toll be bad transportation policy? Because the pedestrian toll discourages transit use! You have to pay the toll before you can get on the free circulator! Why is the fee "shady". Nobody is or was hiding it. They effectively are hiding it. Unless you read the website or find a brochure for it, you'd never know, from looking at the subway map, that there is a charge for AirTrain from HB. The yellow line is CLEARLY shown to be wholly on airport property, and no other airport in the country that I know of charges people to ride the on-property circulator as is the intent of the ped toll at HB. Never mind the fact that no transit system in the world that I know of has a station where the people who park get the fare waved but the people who walk in have to pay a fare. You don't buy it? Do you really think HB residents want hundreds or even thousands of cars per day exiting the Belt at Cross Bay and turning Coleman Square into an impromptu Kiss-and-Ride? I don't think it would. Lefferts seems to be the easier on/off than going to HB. The other reason presented was that there was no reason to build a second station in the long-term lot other than to serve the subway station. They currently use shuttle buses to serve the outer reaches of the lot and could certainly extend those shuttles to serve the small section of parking near where the HB subway station is. To the extent that the line cost more to go and additional 0.3 miles (some of it over swampland) and to build another station, why shouldn't those for whom it was built specially contribute more? Fares don't cover the building costs, AFAIK. They cover operating costs. Does it cost significantly more to operate from Lefferts to HB? Remember, the goal was to promote mass transit. Is it working? It seems not. So what was the point of building from Lefferts to HB? The blatant inequity argument holds no water. There are inequities everywhere, and you don't give any rationale why the PA would have malicious intent towards people who want to use the entrance from Howard Beach. No, there are no such inequities at any other transit station in the world, or at any other airport in the country, that I know of. This is very unorthodox. They don't have malicious intent per se. I think they just figured that this charge may have a chance of slipping by without major opposition, and that maybe if it did spark outrage, they could drop it later. |
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Posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 13:21:41 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 12:37:18 2008. Exactly! It's not promoting transit any better than the bus was! Imagine how many people would use it if it was a free MetroCard transfer!It looks like I've been correct all along, that the people using HB are the same people who would have used it with the shuttle buses. These people either don't know about the ped toll, or know but don't care because it is still the best option for them. As such, the PA is able to collect revenue from everyone who used to use this connection for free. But it hasn't attracted any new users! And that was supposed to be the point! So the PA improved the service and started charing $5 for it, but for what point? No more people are using it than used the free shuttle bus! So if they had just left the free bus, it would be the same as today. No, you're grossly twisting the numbers. There are another 240,000+ passengers per month using AirTrain via Jamaica, and (apparently) countless others arriving via the Q10 bus in mass protest of the pedestrian toll. Many of the riders at Jamaica used the HB connection before they had a choice. AirTrain ridership via Howard Beach is up from 80,000 per month when AirTrain first opened, to the 120,000 per month today. Those are clearly new riders. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 13:32:25 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 13:21:41 2008. No, you're grossly twisting the numbers. There are another 240,000+ passengers per month using AirTrain via Jamaica, and (apparently) countless others arriving via the Q10 bus in mass protest of the pedestrian toll.I didn't twist anything. I was responding only to that which you told me. I don't have the numbers and don't know where you get them from. Many of the riders at Jamaica used the HB connection before they had a choice. Good for them! AirTrain ridership via Howard Beach is up from 80,000 per month when AirTrain first opened, to the 120,000 per month today. Those are clearly new riders. And what was the ridership of the free shuttle bus the month before airtrain opened? And what was the trend leading up to that month? |
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Posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 13:43:18 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 13:09:46 2008. they can use taxi / car serviceYes. An even more direct route, at an even higher cost. QED. Looking at the map, it looks to be pretty similar either way. With one you have more local streets but less distance, with the other you stay on the highway a little but longer and have all major roads right to the Lefferts station, but it is a longer distance. And plus once you get out of the car, I'd think Lefferts is better. You go right into the front door of the airtrain station and right up the escalator. Where as at HB you have to get upstairs and then take the walk to the airtrain station. Ever been on the eastbound Belt Parkway in traffic? Cross Bay to the Van Wyck is frequently one of the worst congested spots. With a choice, nobody stays on if there's traffic on the Belt. Even if traffic is moving, by your own statement it's a 50/50 proposition. Do you really think that the residents of Howard Beach want 1/2 the kiss-and-ride traffic from Brooklyn and western Queens coming through their neighborhood? Fares don't cover the building costs, AFAIK. They cover operating costs. Does it cost significantly more to operate from Lefferts to HB? You're thinking about the MTA. The PA is under no restriction to use fares only towards operating costs of AirTrain. They can take those fares and use them to fix up LaGuardia if they so choose. They made an investment in future revenue by building the station at Howard Beach, now they can use that revenue however they choose. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 13:44:16 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 13:32:25 2008. I can make a quick kcomment here, as this was not yet discussed earlier:And what was the ridership of the free shuttle bus the month before airtrain opened? And what was the trend leading up to that month? I don't know, but as Charles said, a lot of them may now use Jamaica. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 13:50:58 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 13:21:41 2008. Many of the riders at Jamaica used the HB connection before they had a choice.Correct, before they had a choice, many of the people that once used the only subway connection, the former bus, may have now shifted to Jamaica, so the initial "users" of HB may have shuffled, so even if HB handles the same more more users than it once did, it's already a win for transit, as not only have stats not went down, they have increased, and many of the people that once used HB may not even be using HB, but Jamaica instead, so that means many of the current users of HB are NEW users. AirTrain ridership via Howard Beach is up from 80,000 per month when AirTrain first opened, to the 120,000 per month today. Those are clearly new riders. And a lot more than used the "bus". So this "it hinders mass transit use" is based out of nothing, as the reverse appears to be true. And that is a HEALTHY gain in people now using mass transit, and certainly it appears that people are not "protesting the conspiracy" as the AirTrain bashers try to promote happens. In fact quite tthe opposite appears to be true. |
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Posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 13:53:30 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 13:32:25 2008. HB shuttle bus was running about 110,000 - 120,000 per month prior to AirTrain opening, and seemed to be flat (neither growing nor shrinking -- it's difficult to tell exactly what was happening because the PA only published these numbers from mid 2002 on, and you have to factor in the influence of 9/11 travel changes on any trends that one might observe).When AirTrain opened, it carried 180,000 passengers per month within 3 months (split 50/50 between Jamaica and HB) and 250,000 passengers per month (but split a little more than 55/45 towards Jamaica) within a year. Source for stats -- http://www.panynj.gov/aviation/traffic/coverfram.HTM |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 13:56:54 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 13:09:46 2008. Remember, the goal was to promote mass transit. Is it working? It seems not.Where are your facts for this? The stats Charles have provided appears to show the opposite is true, that ridership is steadily increasing. Obviously it is PROMOTING transit, as who are all these new riders then? Where is your proof of your above claim that "it seems not to be working". You can read complete books and countless pages of "how the Las Vagas monorail is a failure", and other systems are not up to stats, but I have not seen any that show how badly AirTrain is performing. None. And there surely would be if it wasn't performing as planned. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:00:35 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 12:38:05 2008. Exactly. As Charles G just posted, the HB branch is not promoting the use of transit at all.Quite the opposite actually. Many of the people that once used Howard Beach, the ONLY connection to the subway now have a choice, and many have shifted over to Jamaica, now that there is a choice. So just the fact that the HB has not lost passengers, even though many probably have shifted to the other leg shows there are many NEW people using the system. Furthermore, if "all these people dropped out because of their outrage over the $5", those stats wouldn't be that strong as they are now either, as again, not only are not LESS people using the HB access, many have also shifted to Jamaica now given a choice. There certainly aren't less people using HB, and now there is even an alternative. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:00:36 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 13:43:18 2008. Yes. An even more direct route, at an even higher cost. QED.Of course it is more direct. That was my point. All the most direct routes to the airport have no access fees, while the less direct route, the A, has an access fee. Even if traffic is moving, by your own statement it's a 50/50 proposition. Do you really think that the residents of Howard Beach want 1/2 the kiss-and-ride traffic from Brooklyn and western Queens coming through their neighborhood? No. I would need to explore other options to encourage Lefferts. But charging the subway riders should not a valid option! You're thinking about the MTA No, I'm really thinking of the PANYNJ. The PA is under no restriction to use fares only towards operating costs of AirTrain. They can take those fares and use them to fix up LaGuardia if they so choose. I didn't say they couldn't. I just said the money isn't going towards the cost of building the line from lefferts to HB, and the station at HB, which seems to be a reason being given for why there is a fare. But in order to charge a fare, and introduce an inequity, that is to unorthodox, I'd think they'd need to have a much better reason than just "we're charging it because we can so we can maximize revenue to use elsewhere". In your description, the subway riders are SUBSIDIZING everyone else!?!!? How is that promoting mass transit use???? They made an investment in future revenue by building the station at Howard Beach, now they can use that revenue however they choose. They did no such thing. According to you, they built the station just so they could collect revenue there to use elsewhere in the PANYNJ collection of properties. If that's the case, they should not have built past lefferts, and should have left a free shuttle bus from HB to Lefferts. Remember, you're trying to justify why, unlike any other airport in the country that I know of, people are being charged for the on-property circulator, and unlike any transit station in the world that I know of, people paying for parking at the station have the fare waived, while people walking up to the station have to pay a fare. That's pretty serious. A justification of "we want the revenue" is not good enough. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:01:31 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 13:50:58 2008. And a lot more than used the "bus".Not according to earlier posts. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:02:31 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 13:44:16 2008. A lot people who wore Nike in 2001 may wear New Balance now. We need numbers. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:03:23 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 13:53:30 2008. Thanks. I will need to examine these. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:05:14 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 13:56:54 2008. Where are your facts for this?Charles G initially simply stated that ridership today from HB is the same as it used to be with the free shuttle bus. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:05:58 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:01:31 2008. Oh absolutely more. At one time Howard Beach was the ONLY subway connection, people "had" to use Howard Beach. Immediately after AirTrain there was an equal alternative, so right away the Jamaica Branch cannibalized Howard Beaches users. For many, it became more convenient to use Jamaica instead of Howard Beach, so of course ridership dipped. Now apparentlyHB is up to and even surpassed the bus' old ridership stats. So not only are people (thatonce used Howard Beach) now using Jamaica, HB is also carrying as many as it once was before the Jamaica Branch cannibalized some of it's users.That is quite encouraging and quite obvious a LOT more people are now using the subway to the airport because of the Airtrain connections. Howard Beach gets as much or better than it once did, even after loosing some of it's base to Jamaica! |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:06:31 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:00:35 2008. You REALLY need to think about why people may have shifted. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:09:21 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:05:58 2008. Howard Beach gets as much or better than it once didAnd how do you know free shuttle ridership wouldn't have increased had airtrain not been built? How do you know that HB airtrain at $5 is doing a better job promoting transit than HB airtrain at $0, like everywhere else in the world? |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Thu Mar 6 14:11:23 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:00:36 2008. Amazing simply amazing.. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:13:32 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 6 13:53:30 2008. Three questions.1. What justification did the PA have for introducing the inequity? 2. What justification do they have for maintaining it? 3. How does the inequity promote transit use better than any solution to the inequity? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:16:44 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:09:21 2008. Because according to the great stats Charles has provided (new information in this thread) the bus' stats were flat - neither rising nor failing.Where are YOUR stats providing that AirTrain has been a hinderence like you claim? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:18:24 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:06:31 2008. Yes, because the E may be more convenient for them, whereas before they had to use the A and Howard Beach because there was no alternative, so OBVIOUSLY their counts would have been at HB prior, as there was no Jamaica.Why do YOU think it shifted? Because they were outraged at the $5 there now so figured they would ride to Jamaica and use that AirTrain instead to protest? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:21:02 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:05:14 2008. Correct. But that doesn't take into account the shift that happened when Jamaica, a complete alternative from HB that didn't exist prior came to being. That branch immediately cannabilzed some of HB's ridership, as now people had a choice, whereas before they "had" to use Howard Beach.So it's absolutely GREAT that HB held it's ridership to the same levels, even after losing people for Jamaica initially. That means there are many new riders using the AirTrain system VIA the subway. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:24:56 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:03:23 2008. Thank you Charles, we finally have some great stats on this AirTrain topic, a major breakthrough. And it appears the AirTrain Bashers are incorrect. It appears to be quite the opposite in reality and through facts than what they were claiming in their opinions and subjective data.Thank you. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:46:39 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:02:31 2008. We have numbers. Charles posted a link to the PA's website which provides AirTrain stats. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:48:20 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:16:44 2008. bus' stats were flat - neither rising nor failing.He only has from sometime in 2002 until the end of the bus service at the end of 2003. This was right after 9/11. The airline industry took a big hit, and the number of people flying dropped by a lot. It wasn't until maybe 2006 that at least one airport I examined was close to returning to pre 9/11 levels of activity. As such, a trend line consisting of just 2002 and 2003 is totally inaccurate of what the actual growth would be after recovery from 9/11. Where are YOUR stats providing that AirTrain has been a hinderence like you claim? AirTrain is not the hindrance. The inequity/$5 fare is. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:49:44 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:18:24 2008. I'm not sure of how much shifted vs left. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:50:26 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:21:02 2008. But that doesn't take into account the shift that happened when JamaicaThe supposed large shift. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:50:59 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:24:56 2008. Chris, you haven't even looked at the data yet. You have no idea what it says. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Mar 6 14:51:27 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 6 14:46:39 2008. His numbers show how many shifted? |
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