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| Re: Air Train question (567079) | |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:08:54 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 09:09:10 2008. Each service needs to be paid for separately. You should not get the fee for one "waived" (as Chris put it), just because you paid for the other."what other airport charges people for the shuttle to bring them to the terminals". Why should people who paid for parking also pay for Airtrain. By design, it's the only way it could efficiently set it up the way AirTrain was built. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:12:02 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 09:48:53 2008. Nope. You pay per car, not per airtrain rider. Thus, long term parkers are not paying for airtrain. And people dropped off at the Lefferts kiss and ride are walking on for free, too.The kiss and ride people luck out. This was addressed, but you only see what you want to see. And it was also addressed that by paying for parking, that allows you to use (and your passengers) to use AirTrain to shuttle you to the terminals. That is not the same thing as saying you pay FOR Airtrain in the parking fee. I said that by paying the parking fee it allows you to ride Airtrain. But you only see what you want to see. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:20:32 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 09:00:39 2008. AirTrain will encourge a lot more people to use that connection than before when the bus was there.People also used to have to pay $2 (in uninflated dollars) to use the bus shuttle that used to be there. That is NO different than today with AirTrain. Doesn't matter who operates AirTrain, doesn't matter who used to operate that bus. Both Airtrain and that $2 bus were the ONLY ways A train people could access the terminals. The truth is, it's fruitless to continue this. It was fruitless 900 posts ago. I think it's time to agree to disagree on this matter, as continuing this for another 900 posts will get us no where. I am not budging on this. You are not budging on this. We may agree on a lot of things posted on this board, perhaps most, but we are not going to agree on this particular topic. The controversy is whether or not the PA has the "right" to charge or "should or should not" charge a fare there. The controversy is NOT what the money exchanged is called. Truly, I don't care what you call it. You can call what the money exchanged is whatever you want. People can agree that it is "called" whatever you want to call it. And some people agree THAT YOU CAN CALL IT A TOLL. However, that does NOT mean people agree that the fee/fare/toll/waste of money/valuable trip money/ - whatever it is, is not justified. There is a service provided there. If you feel it's not justified charging for it, that's fine - that's your opinion. If we get hard stats, facts, or even some new information that this is some "controversy" from some source other than the opinion of a SubChatter, then perhaps it's worth to revisit this topic. Until then, every AirTrain thread will end just the same as this one has progressed. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:26:44 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 10:06:51 2008. I have only ridden that AIrTrain once. Apparently the Long Term lots are not even connected to the AIrTrain.And again, it may be a different situation. Every airport has their own set of situations, circumstances, infastructure, etc that must be dealt with. And my question was "which airport charges you for parking". It says this: COST & TICKETS Ride AirTrain free within the airport. All AirTrain rides within the airport are free, so if you only use AirTrain to connect between the airline terminals, parking, hotel shuttle and rental car facilities, no ticket is required. It arrives and departs every three minutes from 5 a.m. to midnight and approximately every 15 minutes thereafter until 5 a.m. and on Sundays until 7 a.m. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Mar 5 10:33:33 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:26:44 2008. This thread keeps going...and going... |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:34:59 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 10:08:03 2008. Fair enough, I won't mention the ignoring of the $2 bus again [that's not to say the $2 bus won't be mentioned again :)].It could be the same thing that happened to me when people said I wasn't addressing an issue. |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 10:37:16 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:12:02 2008. The kiss and ride people luck out. This was addressed, but you only see what you want to see.And it was also addressed that by paying for parking, that allows you to use (and your passengers) to use AirTrain to shuttle you to the terminals. That is not the same thing as saying you pay FOR Airtrain in the parking fee. I said that by paying the parking fee it allows you to ride Airtrain. But you only see what you want to see. What more is there to see? If you pay for parking, you get a free ride on Airtrain. If you get a ride and pay for nothing, you get a free ride on Airtrain. If you pay to take the subway, you pay again to ride Airtrain. Any way you look at it, it penalizes transit riders and encourages driving - the antithesis of a transit accessible airport. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 10:40:19 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:08:54 2008. Why should people who paid for parking also pay for Airtrain. By design, it's the only way it could efficiently set it up the way AirTrain was built.Why should people who paid to ride the A train also pay for Airtrain? Why should someone who lives in Howard Beach and could previously walk to the airport pay to ride Airtrain? It would have been more efficient to make the Howard Beach branch free for everyone. Just the savings in fare collection equipment could have offset a lot of the revenue loss. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 10:40:38 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 10:37:16 2008. THANK YOU! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 10:44:46 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:26:44 2008. I have only ridden that AIrTrain once. Apparently the Long Term lots are not even connected to the AIrTrain.And again, it may be a different situation. Every airport has their own set of situations, circumstances, infastructure, etc that must be dealt with. Cop out. I gave you a perfect example with Newark AirTrain. There is a parking lot along the "paid branch" (in this case, rightly so, as it brings you from way off the property). The people from the parking lots again do not pay. Thus, JFK AirTrain is NOT unique. All AirTrain rides within the airport are free, so if you only use AirTrain to connect between the airline terminals, parking As we've been saying...AirTrain is FREE for people parking! They do not pay for airtrain! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:45:57 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 10:37:16 2008. The controversy is whether they are justified it charging a fare there. I feel they are. The controversy is that "everyone" arriving there is dumbstruck that they have to pay a fare for this service. The controversy is that there is no precedent (as was claimed for this outrage) and there was, a $2 bus some time ago. The controversy is that this is some sick outrage to all things.I don't see it as any of those things. I see it as a valuable link in the transportation network. Could it be better? Absolutely, but it's better that that which it replaced, hands down. For cheaper alternatives, there are other methods to get to the airport, but $5 for airtrain is a lot cheaper than other options too. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:46:34 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 10:40:38 2008. Don't get too excited, he is one of the "5 or 6 Subchatters" that was discussed a while back in this thread. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:48:45 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 10:40:19 2008. Why should people who paid to ride the A train also pay for Airtrain? Why should someone who lives in Howard Beach and could previously walk to the airport pay to ride Airtrain?Oh please, this has been discussed in other threads too. No Howard Beach people (what the one a year?) will be walking from their home to HOward Beach NYCT station, and then walking all the way to the terminals from there. They would be using the SERVICE provided there, the AirTrain. Walking through that gate does not give you access to the airport terminals. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:51:30 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 10:44:46 2008. Cop out. I gave you a perfect example with Newark AirTrain. There is a parking lot along the "paid branch" (in this case, rightly so, as it brings you from way off the property). The people from the parking lots again do not pay. Thus, JFK AirTrain is NOT unique.Please explain that again. I don't see what you are saying. Where is this parking lot on that map? I see the circulator, and I see where you access it from NJT, etc. There's a parking lot way off the property that people pat for? I can't see that on this map, please point me to it. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:53:59 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:51:30 2008. There's a parking lot way off the property that people pat for? I can't see that on this map, please point me to it.I mean, There's a parking lot way off the property that people pay for AirTrain from? I can't see that on this map, please point me to it. |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 11:30:16 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:48:45 2008. No Howard Beach people (what the one a year?) will be walking from their home to HOward Beach NYCT station, and then walking all the way to the terminals from there.No, they wouldn't be walking to the terminals, but say someone in Howard Beach wanted to rent a car on a Sunday. They should have to pay $5 for the privilege of getting to the rental counter? |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 11:31:05 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 10:40:38 2008. THANK YOU!Transportation planners 2, the rest of SubChat 0 ;) |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 11:42:27 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 11:30:16 2008. No, they wouldn't be walking to the terminals, but say someone in Howard Beach wanted to rent a car on a Sunday. They should have to pay $5 for the privilege of getting to the rental counter?Would they be walking to said rental car counter from that gate? Or would they have to ride AirTrain like every other person to get to that counter? They have rental car places outside the airport, no? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 11:47:27 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 11:42:27 2008. Would they be walking to said rental car counter from that gate? Or would they have to ride AirTrain like every other person to get to that counter?Since there is no other option, they would have to ride AirTrain and unfairly be charged $5. If they can get a ride, they could be dropped off on the other side of the fence and ride AirTrain for free. They have rental car places outside the airport, no? They're not generally open on Sunday. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Mar 5 11:50:41 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:27:29 2008. You made me picture in my head a huge screen at the lot showing a Giants game and people tailgating there! LOL! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 11:51:13 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 11:47:27 2008. Since there is no other option, they would have to ride AirTrain and unfairly be charged $5. If they can get a ride, they could be dropped off on the other side of the fence and ride AirTrain for free.My question though was, if the gate was open, would they be walking to the Rental Car counter, or using the SERVICE Airtrain provides? I don't believe they would be walking, thus, there is no need to have the gate open there, as they have to pay for that service of AirTrain just like anyone else coming in there, (that didn't pay for parking). They're not generally open on Sunday. That may or may not be true, but anyone else would have that dimema too, not just Howard Beach people. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 11:53:28 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 11:51:13 2008. And one more thing I forgot.... Howard Beach is big. How many people a year in walking distance of the Howard Beach NYCT station need to rent a car on Sunday? Is there some big demand for this, or is it no more than a couple a year? If there is some big demand, perhaps it can be addressed further, but I still don't see many people walking all the way from their homes, into that gate, and then WALKING to the rental car center or terminals without using the service of Airtrain in their trek. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 12:42:47 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 11:51:13 2008. My question though was, if the gate was open, would they be walking to the Rental Car counter, or using the SERVICE Airtrain provides? I don't believe they would be walking, thus, there is no need to have the gate open there...If the gate were open, they would be walking to the parking lot or Kiss & Ride to ride AirTrain for free. ...as they have to pay for that service of AirTrain just like anyone else coming in there, (that didn't pay for parking). As previoulsy indicated, people whi can get a lift to the airport don't pay for parking and don't pay for AirTrain. That may or may not be true, but anyone else would have that dimema too, not just Howard Beach people. There are agencies in Manhattan open on Sundays, and people in Northern Queens would be closer to LaGuardia. I was referring to people for whom JFK would be the most convenient rental counter. |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 12:43:14 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 11:51:13 2008. Fixed html...My question though was, if the gate was open, would they be walking to the Rental Car counter, or using the SERVICE Airtrain provides? I don't believe they would be walking, thus, there is no need to have the gate open there... If the gate were open, they would be walking to the parking lot or Kiss & Ride to ride AirTrain for free. ...as they have to pay for that service of AirTrain just like anyone else coming in there, (that didn't pay for parking). As previoulsy indicated, people whi can get a lift to the airport don't pay for parking and don't pay for AirTrain. That may or may not be true, but anyone else would have that dimema too, not just Howard Beach people. There are agencies in Manhattan open on Sundays, and people in Northern Queens would be closer to LaGuardia. I was referring to people for whom JFK would be the most convenient rental counter. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 12:47:39 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:51:30 2008. station P4 |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Wed Mar 5 13:15:28 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by RonInBayside on Wed Mar 5 10:33:33 2008. This may well be the longest thread in the history of this board. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by South Ferry on Wed Mar 5 13:17:35 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by The Port of Authority on Wed Mar 5 13:15:28 2008. Congrats Jared!! |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Mar 5 13:25:13 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by heypaul on Wed Mar 5 08:31:32 2008. Curly would have said, "Hey, I resemble that remark!":) |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 14:34:35 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 12:47:39 2008. Thanks, that isn't readily noticable from the map, at least that I can tell. Also, it appears that their long term lots are not served by the Airtrain, kinda the way JFK's airport AirTrain system would look like had they not had to build the branch to Howard Beach. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 14:41:05 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 12:43:14 2008. Well then those two or three people a year that that may happen to (unless it can be noted that there is a real demand for that) are out of luck, as there's no way to seperate them from the other people that enter via the subway station at Howard Beach.As for the Kiss and Ride people, also discussed somewhere above, no way to sort them out from the people who paid for parking. The only solution to them would be to have some sort of card that would be given to them when they park that would be good for them and their passengers, but the cost of having such a fare collection system done and operated there would probably cost more than the loss of revenue currently from the Kiss and Ride people. Another solution would be to move the kiss and ride location to a different spot, but that would just further congest the airport terminal areas, and that is not something they should want to do. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 15:48:33 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 14:34:35 2008. Thanks, that isn't readily noticable from the map, at least that I can tell.it's printed right on the map. it says daily parking garage. Also, it appears that their long term lots are not served by the Airtrain, kinda the way JFK's airport AirTrain system would look like had they not had to build the branch to Howard Beach. No, Newark has daily lots outside of the terminal area, unlike JFK (AFAIK). So Newark's AirTrain is very similar to JFK's in that it serves parking lots not adjacent to the terminals. It just doesn't serve the Long Term lots. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 15:55:14 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 15:48:33 2008. it's printed right on the map. it says daily parking garage.Yes, I saw "daily parking garage" on there. It's not clear from the map that you have to pay for AirTrain from that station. Again, I only rode around on the free part of the AirTrain a few years ago when someone I was picking up there had their plane delayed, so I did it to kill time. Newark has daily lots outside of the terminal area, unlike JFK (AFAIK). So Newark's AirTrain is very similar to JFK's in that it serves parking lots not adjacent to the terminals. It just doesn't serve the Long Term lots. Right, that's what I said, if not for the fact that they had to build the branch to howard beach, they may very well have not built that leg at all, and just continued to serve the long term parking lot with bus shuttles as before, and as newark apparently does. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 17:27:25 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 15:55:14 2008. Yes, I saw "daily parking garage" on there. It's not clear from the map that you have to pay for AirTrain from that station. Again, I only rode around on the free part of the AirTrain a few years ago when someone I was picking up there had their plane delayed, so I did it to kill time.You don't have to pay from that station. That's the point. You asked for an example to show that JFK AirTrain isn't unique in that a pay branch goes through a free parking lot station. Right, that's what I said, if not for the fact that they had to build the branch to howard beach, they may very well have not built that leg at all, and just continued to serve the long term parking lot with bus shuttles as before, and as newark apparently does. No, at Newark they built the line out to Lots P1, P2, and P3 which are not directly adjacent to the terminal and have no transit station near them. Also, JFK needed a place for a large yard. That place was out near the long term lot. So it looks like the branch to the long term lot would have been built even without the A at HB. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Mar 5 19:40:53 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 07:57:03 2008. This has become another "fight to the death" over a petty point. It's hardly worth the number of posts dedicated to it. I think everyone else should drop it and just let that one person make himself miserable because no one else cares about this great civil injustice. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Mar 5 20:27:02 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Train Dude on Wed Mar 5 19:40:53 2008. I'm amazed this has gone on for so long. Normally when I stick a diagram in a thread, it dies within the day. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 21:46:48 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 17:27:25 2008. No, at Newark they built the line out to Lots P1, P2, and P3 which are not directly adjacent to the terminal and have no transit station near them. Also, JFK needed a place for a large yard. That place was out near the long term lot. So it looks like the branch to the long term lot would have been built even without the A at HB.You can take it the other way too. The lots it went to are the rental car lots, that's pretty important. Their Long term parking lot is still served by by buses, as it looks like they would have had to have a seperate line if they wanted to serve the long term lot, either that, or make a larger loop. That is a lot how JFK is, the HB line is not on the circulator loop itself, but a seperate branch. At Newark they decided it wasn't worth it to put a seperate branch on to serve the Long term lot. At JFK, that extra branch would also serve a subway station, so it made sense to build it. They may not have done that if not for the HB station, the same could have been done with shuttle buses to the Long term lot. You don't have to pay from that station. That's the point. You asked for an example to show that JFK AirTrain isn't unique in that a pay branch goes through a free parking lot station. I was asking for an example where they would charge the PARKING LOT people on a paid branch. That's why I was so confused when you poated this, as it didn't make sense, as I could find where they were charging those parking lot people. Now I find out they aren't charging the parking lot people at all. That's not what I asked for a example of. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 22:01:46 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 21:46:48 2008. You can take it the other way too. The lots it went to are the rental car lots, that's pretty important. Their Long term parking lot is still served by by buses, as it looks like they would have had to have a seperate line if they wanted to serve the long term lot, either that, or make a larger loop. That is a lot how JFK is, the HB line is not on the circulator loop itself, but a seperate branch. At Newark they decided it wasn't worth it to put a seperate branch on to serve the Long term lot. At JFK, that extra branch would also serve a subway station, so it made sense to build it. They may not have done that if not for the HB station, the same could have been done with shuttle buses to the Long term lot.No, like I said, the yard is there. So building that part of the circulator was a no-brainer. It also looks like it was probably a bit easier construction-wise than it would be to build to the Newark long term lot. I was asking for an example where they would charge the PARKING LOT people on a paid branch. Why would they do that? Don't you understand? Everywhere else they DON'T CHARGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anywhere this situation would come up where the station is shared, they WOULD NOT CHARGE BECAUSE DOING SO IS ASININE. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 22:03:43 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 21:46:48 2008. Okay, I see where the misunderstanding came up here, I asked this:http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=581000 And then you changed my question to this without me realizing it: http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=581052 Then, what further confused me (sorry) was that you posted my quote on top of your question linking to AirTrain, where I thought I was looking to answer MY question when you posted that, that's why I was looking for a fee at that parking lot: http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=581085 So you can see how with that post above, I was looking for MY question, as that is what is posted above your link in that post, so you can see why I got confused here. ANYWAY, to answer YOUR question now, this Newark AirTrain map doesn't prove your point either, according to the Cost they post on THEIR Website: COST & TICKETS Ride AirTrain free within the airport. All AirTrain rides within the airport are free, so if you only use AirTrain to connect between the airline terminals, parking, hotel shuttle and rental car facilities, no ticket is required. It arrives and departs every three minutes from 5 a.m. to midnight and approximately every 15 minutes thereafter until 5 a.m. and on Sundays until 7 a.m. So, no, people are not riding free on a "paid branch". The free circulator begins at the P4 station, and everything including that station and after that is free. That is no different than how the Jamaica leg and HB leg of JFK's airtrain is free from the parking lots and terminals.  |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Wed Mar 5 22:04:19 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Mar 4 20:09:51 2008. Why must a toll only be for service? Access is being provided. Most tolls cover are for access, not service. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Wed Mar 5 22:10:58 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 5 08:36:51 2008. You'll find this one interesting Al...I was scheduled to proctor an actuarial exam at St Johns (then the College of Insurance) on the day of the Yankees World Series parade back in '96. I got caught on the east side of the parade and had to duck into the subway with my box of exams (but didn't have to pay a fare IIRC) in order to get across the parade in order to get to the exam on time. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 22:15:50 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 22:01:46 2008. No, like I said, the yard is there. So building that part of the circulator was a no-brainer.But the yard was put there because they knew they were going to build a branch to Howard Beach. My point is this. Would the long term lot, which obviously wouldn't have connected well with the loop, without making the loop bigger, would that have been worth making a whole seperate branch for if not for the fact that they were also going to go to Howard Beach. I don't think it would have been worth the expense to build an entire third segment there just for that long term lot, had it not been for the fact that Howard beach would also be served. Newark's situation is somewhat similar as that the "loop" (well half loop) would have worked well if it had to loop all the way to the long term lots. They would have had to have built a seperate branch to serve that long term lot, just like they did at JFK for the long term lot. However, if a "subway" or rail station had been near that lot, it would have made much more sense to serve that long term lot with more than just buses if the extension to that hypothetical rail station was there. Thanks!! Posting this Neward AirTrain really helped with my thought on my position! It also looks like it was probably a bit easier construction-wise than it would be to build to the Newark long term lot. That is speculation, so I don't know, and can't comment on that. Why would they do that? Don't you understand? I understand well, that's what the parking lot people aren't charged for that branch, as I said. My question (before it was turned around) was "how can they charge people for airtrain after already charging them for parking, and I said "what airport would they do that", and then you posted this Newark map where they DON'T charge for parking, as the airtrain changes from ma paid line to a free line at the parking lot station. It illustrates it well now that I understand that they don't charge the parking lot people there! You made it sound like they charge the parking lot people at that first station, and that's what had me scratching my head. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 22:16:06 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 22:03:43 2008. Huh? Newark AirTrain does prove my point. All of the free stations are on airport property and are all part of the circulator. The HB station is on airport property and is part of the circulator and is free, but subway passengers are charged a pedestrian toll.Now please answer my question for real: What other transit line, airport-relate or not, has a station that is served by a parking lot and for which the people parking get the fare waved but the people who walk on have to pay the fare? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 22:18:28 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 10:02:12 2008. Correct, but the only reason anyone has any business walking into there would be because they are about to use Airtrain. There's nothing else to do in the parking lot that they would have any business being in there for.You still haven't addressed the inequity that transit riders get penalized, while drivers get a free ride. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 22:20:52 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Wed Mar 5 22:04:19 2008. Because the point of the PANYNJ is not to maximize revenue. It is to provide the greatest benefit/service to the people of NY and NJ. Charging subway riders an access fee to the airport provides the subway riders with no extra service over what the free riders get and is not in the best interest of the people. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 22:23:20 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 22:16:06 2008. I said every airport is different! It doesn't matter what they do! As far as I know there is no other airport, with an airtrain system that has the same situation as JFK. If the A train went up to the free part of the AirTrain circulator, like at Federal circle, it would be different, but it doesn't.The Howard Beach branch is a PAID branch, but they CAN'T charge the parking lot people after they already paid for parking there. The parking lot fee entitles the drivers and their passengers to be able to ride the Airtrain (after paying the parking fee) to get to the terminals. The people from howard Beach did NOT pay for parking, so why should they ride free? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 22:26:56 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 22:18:28 2008. Transit riders are not getting penalized. They are being provided a service. The "drivers" paid for parking, which entitles them to ride AirTrain. That is like that at any airport with airtrain. As far as I know, most airports don't charge paid parking drivers a fee for the airtrain/peoplemover to bring them to their terminals.The kiss and ride people luck out, I told you, there is no way to collect from them, without requiring all the parking lot people to somehow have a card after parking to access the airtrain. Instituting such a fare collection system there would probably cost more than the loss of revenue they have from the kiss and ride people. So yes, they luck out, but only because there is no other way to handle them. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 22:37:22 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 22:15:50 2008. But the yard was put there because they knew they were going to build a branch to Howard Beach. My point is this. Would the long term lot, which obviously wouldn't have connected well with the loop, without making the loop bigger, would that have been worth making a whole seperate branch for if not for the fact that they were also going to go to Howard Beach. I don't think it would have been worth the expense to build an entire third segment there just for that long term lot, had it not been for the fact that Howard beach would also be served. Newark's situation is somewhat similar as that the "loop" (well half loop) would have worked well if it had to loop all the way to the long term lots. They would have had to have built a seperate branch to serve that long term lot, just like they did at JFK for the long term lot. However, if a "subway" or rail station had been near that lot, it would have made much more sense to serve that long term lot with more than just buses if the extension to that hypothetical rail station was there. Thanks!! Posting this Neward AirTrain really helped with my thought on my position! For the third time, yes, they would have built it, since that's where the yard is! Where else would you put the yard?! That is speculation, so I don't know, and can't comment on that. Narrow road around the west and north sides of the airport, squeezing past existing buildings and between a major highway. Contrast that to JFK where they just went through nothingness. My question (before it was turned around) was "how can they charge people for airtrain after already charging them for parking I don't know, you brought it up! My guess is the same way they charge people for AirTrain after they've been charged to ride the (A). I know, it's ridiculous. Both of them. But one of the two actually is in place. Instead, they could simply drop the fare for subway riders, as is done at every other airport system in the country! I don't understand why you'd rather they implement an additional thing not done anywhere else than drop what they are already doing that isn't done anywhere else. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Mar 5 22:38:28 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 22:23:20 2008. The Howard Beach branch is a PAID branch, but they CAN'T charge the parking lot people after they already paid for parking there. The parking lot fee entitles the drivers and their passengers to be able to ride the Airtrain (after paying the parking fee) to get to the terminals.That would be fine if a portion of the parking fee went to subsidize AirTrain operations. AFAIK, that is not the case. And again, people who get a ride to the airport don't pay for anything. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 22:38:46 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 22:23:20 2008. If the A train went up to the free part of the AirTrain circulator, like at Federal circle, it would be differentHow does that make a difference? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Mar 5 22:41:55 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 5 22:23:20 2008. but they CAN'T charge the parking lot people after they already paid for parking there.Uh, yes they certainly can. On the DC metro, you pay to park and then you pay to ride, just the same as if you walked to the station. The parking lot fee entitles the drivers and their passengers to be able to ride the Airtrain (after paying the parking fee) to get to the terminals. No it doesn't. It is a per car fee. Not a per person fare. The people from howard Beach did NOT pay for parking, so why should they ride free? Why shouldn't they ride for free? They are already at airport property. |
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