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| (1294724) | |
Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Jun 2 20:33:11 2014 I had thought that there was a free transfer at some point between the Fulton St. station (5th Ave. El) & the Flatbush Ave. station (Fulton St. el).However the more pictures I see of this area it looks like there were never any transfer facilities (stairways, walkways) constructed between these two stations. Is this correct? |
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| (1294737) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 2 21:44:45 2014, in response to Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Express Rider on Mon Jun 2 20:33:11 2014. I always thought there was one, also. Especially after the BRT bought the Kings County Elevated. |
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| (1294740) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Jun 2 22:02:23 2014, in response to Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Express Rider on Mon Jun 2 20:33:11 2014. Didn't the BMT have paper transfers at some stations. I remember the weird one at Bridge Jay that was only if one was using Fulton Street in Manhattan and the paper transfer at Fulton and Franklyn between the A and the Shuttle. Perhaps there was one at Franklin & Flatbush. |
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| (1294741) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 2 22:04:38 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Jun 2 22:02:23 2014. I'm sure that someone here knows the answer! |
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| (1294742) | |
correctionRe: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Jun 2 22:04:40 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Jun 2 22:02:23 2014. Sorry, I meant Bway-Nassau, not Fulton in Manhattan. |
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| (1294744) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Jun 2 22:08:24 2014, in response to Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Express Rider on Mon Jun 2 20:33:11 2014. According to this map there was no transfer. |
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| (1294745) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Jun 2 22:10:26 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Jun 2 22:08:24 2014. According to that map, the Fulton el bypasses Broadway Junction. |
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| (1294746) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 2 22:17:00 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Jun 2 22:02:23 2014. You could get a paper transfer for Jay Street, only if you paid your fare at Sumner Ave (and lived to use it!), or any other station south of it. Heading to Brooklyn, you had to request one at Broadway-Nassau. I could never understand why they didn't have ticket machines at Bridge- Jay/Boro hall, like the ones at Fulton/Franklin! |
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| (1294748) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Jun 2 22:31:42 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 2 22:17:00 2014. Are you sure there was no ticket machine at Bridge Jay? I used to railfan the Myrtle but always got on at either Wyckoff from the LL or Bway from the Jamaica Line and got the A train at Bridge Jay. (I lived on Long Is even then and used to spend whole days railfanning) I was just a teen and would never pay another fare. (Unless I hopped the turnstile, LOL) |
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| (1294749) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Jun 2 22:35:53 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Nilet on Mon Jun 2 22:10:26 2014. If I'm not mistaken it never stopped there. It was a good block away with no passageway. Think of how far the IND is from the Jamaica & Canarsie Lines presently. You have a mezzanine on both sides of the long escalator. There was a transfer to the Canarsie Line and some Broadway trains at Atlantic Avenue. |
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| (1294750) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Jun 2 22:42:01 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Jun 2 22:35:53 2014. Maybe, but nycsubway.org lists it as a station and claims that in 1952 service was cut back to Eastern Parkway except for rush hour trains to Rockaway Avenue. |
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| (1294755) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 2 23:18:00 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Nilet on Mon Jun 2 22:10:26 2014. the Fulton el bypasses Broadway Junction.The Fulton El stopped at Manhattan Junction. |
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| (1294758) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 2 23:33:21 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Nilet on Mon Jun 2 22:42:01 2014. that in 1952 service was cut back to Eastern Parkway except for rush hour trains to Rockaway Avenue.The IND Fulton St. Line extended only to Rockaway Ave in 1940. Therefore, the Fulton St. El was terminated at Rockaway Ave with a free transfer between the IND and BMT at Rockaway Ave. The IND Fulton St. Line was extended to Bway-ENY and beyond after WW II. There was a free transfer between the Bway Jct and Bway-ENY stations. The Fulton St. El was re-routed to terminate on the center track at Bway Jct lower level during non-rush hours. This track was used by Jamaica Expresses during rush hours - so Rockaway Ave. still had to be used for transfer between the IND and Fulton St El locals. 14th St Expresses provided direct rush hour service for the Fulton St El from 1936 through 1956. It used the 14th St Line station at Bway-Jct on the upper level. |
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| (1294767) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by VictorM on Mon Jun 2 23:57:11 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 2 23:33:21 2014. That's right. The escalator connecting the BMT Eastern Parkway station with the IND East New York station was built in 1948 or 49, so that Liberty Av/Pitkin Av passengers could transfer to the IND at Eastern Pkwy instead of Rockaway Av. Because of the switch configuration at Eastern Pkwy, the Liberty/Pitken trains had to arrive and leave on the side (local) tracks and use the center track just west of Eastern Pkwy to relay. |
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| (1294777) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Jun 3 00:53:32 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 2 23:33:21 2014. Except that this picture purports to show a Fulton train at Broadway Junction: This picture shows the ironwork where the Fulton tracks used to be— three of them.  The page for Broadway Junction claims the Fulton el had a station there too. |
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| (1294778) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 3 00:58:59 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Nilet on Tue Jun 3 00:53:32 2014. And the upper photo is dated 1953. Which is in no way inconsistent with the service pattern described in Mr. Bauman's post.The second picture shows the ironwork for a Fulton El that never stopped at Broadway Junction. It curves away from the station! This is such common knowledge that only annoying know-it-all would think of disputing it. |
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| (1294781) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Jun 3 01:25:52 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 3 00:58:59 2014. This is such common knowledge that only annoying know-it-all would think of disputing it.I'll let David Pirmann know that you consider him an "annoying know-it-all." I'm starting to figure out why he closed SubTalk. |
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| (1294784) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 01:56:45 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 2 22:17:00 2014. It seem that when I first transferred from the IND to Myrtle in 1958, the transfer was unrestricted, in Fact the maps of that time indicated such. I don't even think there was a restriction from the el to the IND either until some time later. The actual idea of the transfer was to replace the former one seat ride Myrtle passengers had to the City Hall area which was lost when Park Row terminal was demolished. After 9PM until about 6AM, the restriction did not exist from the el to the IND since during those hours, the fares were collected on board the trains and there were no RR clerks to issue transfers between Sumner and Navy St. I don't recall if any machines existed on the IND mezzanine, but there were definitely no machines on the el at Bridge/Jay St. The transfers were issued directly by the RR clerk. |
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| (1294785) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 02:04:45 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 3 00:58:59 2014. The Fulton El stopped at ENY (known then as "Manhattan Junction") prior to the dual contract reconstruction. After that, the Fulton el went directly from Rockaway Av to Atlantic with no intermediate stop in the Bway Jct area. I used to stand at the Canarsie end of Bway Jct station on the 14 St Line after Fulton shut down and look at the abandoned structure to Rocky Av. From What I can recall, I can't understand why a 3 tk 2 island platform similar to E/Pky on the J couldn't have been constructed in the vicinity of Bway Jct since the Fulton structure was pretty close to the Bway Jct complex. |
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| (1294786) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 02:05:12 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 2 23:18:00 2014. Correct. See my post. |
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| (1294787) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 02:08:10 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 2 21:44:45 2014. Not only was there no transfer there, but the BRT/BMT didn't see fit to provide a transfer from the Myrtle Av (Gold St) station on the 4 Av subway to the Myrtle Av el even though mention was made of the possibility of one being built in one of the PSC reports from circa 1913. |
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| (1294788) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Jun 3 02:08:10 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 02:04:45 2014. I used to stand at the Canarsie end of Bway Jct station on the 14 St Line after Fulton shut down and look at the abandoned structure to Rocky Av.How long did it stay standing? Or, rather, how much stayed standing for how long, since remnants of the el at Atlantic Avenue remained intact until 2004. |
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| (1294789) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 3 02:10:45 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 02:08:10 2014. Why would a privately-held company offer a free transfer when they could collect another fare? There's your answer. |
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| (1294790) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 02:11:46 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Nilet on Tue Jun 3 02:08:10 2014. I didn't start riding the subway without parental supervision till I started high school in1958. During the summer of 1958, I remember riding the short lived "Rockaway Special" and the portion of the Fulton St el immediately west of 80/Hudson St was still standing and it was sometime after that I remember seeing the Rockaway Av structure still up. |
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| (1294791) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 02:14:19 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 3 02:10:45 2014. Even though it was a private company, it was still SOP to offer such transfers where available. In addition, the PSC which oversaw rapid transit operations in NYC would have required them where practicable. |
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| (1294792) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 02:14:57 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 2 22:17:00 2014. It seem that when I first transferred from the IND to Myrtle in 1958, the transfer was unrestricted, in Fact the maps of that time indicated such. I don't even think there was a restriction from the el to the IND either until some time later. The actual idea of the transfer was to replace the former one seat ride Myrtle passengers had to the City Hall area which was lost when Park Row terminal was demolished. After 9PM until about 6AM, the restriction did not exist from the el to the IND since during those hours, the fares were collected on board the trains and there were no RR clerks to issue transfers between Sumner and Navy St. I don't recall if any machines existed on the IND mezzanine, but there were definitely no machines on the el at Bridge/Jay St. The transfers were issued directly by the RR clerk. |
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| (1294794) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 3 02:31:25 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 02:14:19 2014. Yeah, but back in those days certain "deals" were made to ignore one thing in order to get another. There were plenty of bus lines as well where transfers would have made sense but weren't available. Every little nuance of how things ran was subject to "negotiation." |
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| (1294795) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by renee gil on Tue Jun 3 02:36:46 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 2 23:33:21 2014. IND Fulton St. Line extended to Rockaway Ave on 4/9/1936. |
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| (1294798) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Jun 3 02:43:09 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 02:11:46 2014. What was the Rockaway Special? |
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| (1294804) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Jun 3 04:53:33 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Nilet on Tue Jun 3 02:08:10 2014. If I recall, the turnout of the el towards Fulton is still there, it's just more covered up. |
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| (1294806) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Jun 3 05:18:06 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by 3-9 on Tue Jun 3 04:53:33 2014. At Atlantic Avenue? I'll have to check it out sometime. |
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| (1294807) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Jun 3 05:20:25 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Nilet on Tue Jun 3 05:18:06 2014. IIRC, among other things they did, they put a large shed at the end of the stub. |
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| (1294808) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by zac on Tue Jun 3 05:21:41 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 3 02:31:25 2014. Yes, not all buses would transfer to each other. I remember into the sixties or seventies there were multiple bus operating divisions in Brooklyn and frequently you couldn't transfer from one to the other even though it was all NYCTA or MTA. Then there was the "Add A Ride" which would allow transfers at the places where it wasn't already free, but you had to pay extra. They stopped that and made all transfers free when a bus driver was shot (and killed?) for not giving a free transfer.There were probably historical reasons for this, and maybe the trolley system too had limits. |
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| (1294809) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Jun 3 05:25:12 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Nilet on Tue Jun 3 05:18:06 2014. Right where the big white shed is, so you might have a better view from under it:Link |
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| (1294810) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Jun 3 05:31:42 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by 3-9 on Tue Jun 3 05:25:12 2014. According to that satellite map, the ironwork for the Fulton el is intact from Fulton to Pitkin, with the station platform at Atlantic Avenue still some semblance of intact. I thought all of that was long gone. |
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| (1294811) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by zac on Tue Jun 3 05:40:33 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 01:56:45 2014. I remember seeing the machine at Bway Nassau. I never rode the Myrtle El so I don't know about those transfers. It was all moot to me as I only rode because i had a high school pass.The map said that only "El" stations would issue the transfer. If you got on the upper part there was no transfer, you were supposed to take the Jamaica line into Manhattan, or of course the Myrtle/Chambers train when it was running. |
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| (1294812) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Jun 3 05:51:56 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 2 22:17:00 2014. How did the define "paying your fare" at the station? Suppose you had already bought a supply of tokens - could you walk up to the booth and request a transfer ticket, without having to purchase another one? |
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| (1294814) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 3 07:12:45 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Jun 3 05:51:56 2014. Most Eastern Division stations had a manually operated turnstile at the change booth. You handed the station agent your fare and the agent unlocked the turnstile allowing the passenger to pass. |
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| (1294884) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jun 3 15:02:30 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 02:08:10 2014. There was no station at Flatbush Ave on the Myrtle to transfer from. The reason why is because that part of Flatbush Ave did not exist until after the Myrtle Ave el was built. |
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| (1294885) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jun 3 15:09:27 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Nilet on Tue Jun 3 00:53:32 2014. It did not. At least not at the modern complex. The next stop for a Fulton St train west of Atlantic Ave was Rockaway Ave. Trains terminating at Eastern Parkway (as well as Fulton/Lexington Ave trains) used the flyover track from Atlantic Ave to access the J train platform. A train headed for Rockaway Ave could not stop at Broadway Junction. I am less clear about the exact configuration of the older Manhattan Junction complex.The top picture shows a Fulton St train headed to Lefferts coming from the current J train platform on it's way to Atlantic Ave. |
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| (1294886) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jun 3 15:13:01 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 02:11:46 2014. The el was torn down in 1958, you likely recall the structure at the VERY end of it's existence. |
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| (1294890) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 3 15:28:59 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jun 3 15:09:27 2014. I am less clear about the exact configuration of the older Manhattan Junction complex.After 1906, when Canarsie Line was connected. 
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| (1294893) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 15:48:39 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Nilet on Tue Jun 3 02:43:09 2014. The Rockaway special was a premium fare train that ran one trip to Playland station on weekends from 42/8 lower much like the Aqueduct specials and the fare included some sort of admission to the Playland amusement park. If I recall, it only ran for the summer of1958 using a train of the R-16s that were still on the iND at the time. I rode it once but I don't recall if it stopped at Hoyt or not but other than that it was non stop. |
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| (1294894) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 15:51:48 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jun 3 15:02:30 2014. Correct, but included among the dual contract proposals was the construction of a station at Flatbush Ext to be used as a terminal for Myrtle and Lex trains which would be removed from the Bkln Bridge and the construction of a transfer to the Myrtle Av station of the 4 Av Subway. |
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| (1294896) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 15:53:28 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Jun 3 05:51:56 2014. I would assume that would be the case. |
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| (1294899) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 16:04:03 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Nilet on Tue Jun 3 05:31:42 2014. That photo looks like it was taken before the entire excess structure had been removed. As I mentioned in another post on this subject, I could never figure out why the rebuilt Fulton St el didn't have an express station at Bway Jct since if you look carefully at where that signal relay room is at the end of structure which is almost directly beneath the canarsie bound 14 St Line platform, there would have been ample room for one along wit appropriate connecting ramps and stairways to the rest of the complex. |
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| (1294900) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jun 3 16:06:05 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 15:51:48 2014. Pretty sure the 1950's realignment of the Dekalb Ave corridor was already on the drawing board in 1944. |
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| (1294902) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 3 16:08:56 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by zac on Tue Jun 3 05:21:41 2014. It was really crazy in the Bronx where pretty much the only way to get around is to hoof it, drive, or rot for another bus. |
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| (1294903) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jun 3 16:09:56 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 3 15:28:59 2014. So Pitkin Ave was once called Eastern Parkway, and there was a station at Pitkin/Sneideker? |
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| (1294918) | |
Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 3 17:08:52 2014, in response to Re: Flatbush and Fulton stations, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jun 3 16:06:05 2014. True, but what I'm talking about dates to circa 1913. |
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