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| (984264) | |
Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 08:39:44 2010 The plot thickens on the Myrtle Ave express track. There is speculation, rumors, reports, that the the express track used to have no switches on the Wyckoff end, and just stubbed at the Seneca Station from its only switches at the merge just south of Central Ave. But I was studying this photo, and notice that something even odder comes up....this photo is from the early 40's, when the track was still in, taken from the Wyckoff station looking to Knickerbocker, but notice not only was the track probably out of service in this photo, but notice there's no third rail! But what's odder, is that there's no evidence that there was ever third rail either, which makes it even odder. Was the track ever even electrified? This track seems to be one of the oddest tracks in the whole system. Or is that a third rail uncovered on the right? I can't tell if it's a running track, or a third rail with no cover on it. 
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Allan on Wed Sep 29 09:05:33 2010, in response to Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 08:39:44 2010. I see 2 running rails and a 3rd rail (at the far right) with no cover on it which was standard for elevated lines at the time. |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by mike cruz on Wed Sep 29 09:36:54 2010, in response to Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 08:39:44 2010. no signals either, it looks like a third rail but i dont see any insulators. |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by mike cruz on Wed Sep 29 09:38:03 2010, in response to Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 08:39:44 2010. nevermind i see the insulators. |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Sep 29 10:36:17 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by mike cruz on Wed Sep 29 09:36:54 2010. They're there, the shadows and shading of the photo make it hard to make out. |
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| (984291) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Sep 29 10:36:27 2010, in response to Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 08:39:44 2010. Yes, that looks like a third rail to me as well. Oddly, it would seem that this track may have been disconnected from any other track by as early as the 1930s, but not torn up for some time after. |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Wed Sep 29 12:30:15 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by mike cruz on Wed Sep 29 09:38:03 2010. There was no cover even in the 60's, when the ice would be on the 3rd rail you could see the flashes at night from far off it lit up the sky, and if you would be under the elevated at night sometimes you would see what looked like welders sparks fall to the street below, saw that on the trolley ROW under the Fresh Pond Rd station I wish I caught that on film. Karl M |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 12:46:42 2010, in response to Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 08:39:44 2010. The reason the third rail is hard to see is because it, like the running rails are caked in rust as if the track has not been used in ages. Given it's likely configuration, it's easy to understand why nothing used it. |
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| (984311) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 12:48:00 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Wed Sep 29 12:30:15 2010. The Broadway and Myrtle Ave lines got the covered third rails in the early 60's. Oddly enough, they also installed it on the lower Myrtle, only a few years before abandonment. |
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| (984322) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Sep 29 13:37:12 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by SLRT on Wed Sep 29 10:36:27 2010. Oddly, it would seem that this track may have been disconnected from any other track by as early as the 1930s, but not torn up for some time after.This may prove youre point.  Line: BMT Myrtle...Location: Broadway/Myrtle Avenue (Upper Level)... Car: Brooklyn Union Elevated... Collection of: George Conrad Collection...Date: 8/30/1948...from nycsubway.org Bill Newkirk |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 13:42:49 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Sep 29 13:37:12 2010. I still believe this track was meant more to connect the Myrtle Ave line to the original elevated 14th St. line through the area. Once the plan was changed to a subway, it served no purpose and was probably never used. I have never seen a picture with a train on it. |
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| (984326) | |
Question about BU's with middle doors: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 13:44:54 2010, in response to Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 08:39:44 2010. How did conductors open them from their positions at the "gates"? |
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| (984334) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Dan on Wed Sep 29 14:04:45 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by SLRT on Wed Sep 29 10:36:27 2010. Was the Myrtle express track ever used in revenue service? |
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| (984340) | |
Re: Question about BU's with middle doors: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Sep 29 14:24:41 2010, in response to Question about BU's with middle doors: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 13:44:54 2010. From what I was told, the center doors on those BUs so equipped were opened from the OUTSIDE of the car only at Sands St and Park Row by platform C/Rs assigned to those locations. |
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| (984343) | |
Re: Question about BU's with middle doors: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 14:29:00 2010, in response to Re: Question about BU's with middle doors: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Randyo on Wed Sep 29 14:24:41 2010. Ah, that would make sense. Those were probably the two highest demand stations, especially Park Row.So this means they were never used after 1944? |
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| (984344) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Sep 29 14:33:34 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Sep 29 13:37:12 2010. What I find interesting about this picture is that it appears that trains using the middle track had no way to access the outer tracks that head toward the upper level station and the Myrtle Avenue line, unless there were switches located somewhere else not shown in this picture.This picture seems to suggest that the middle track could only be accessed by trains that use the inner tracks, I believe that ones that connect to the Brooklyn Broadway line, our current M train. Again, unless there are other switches not shown in this photo. When I look at this picture, it reminds of the junction used by the current #2 and #5 trains, with a similar track-junction that lead to and from the Third Avenue El in the Bronx, near the 149th Street-Third Avenue station. There are some remains of the trackage and support structures, although the whole Third Avenue El in the Bronx, and its connecting tracks were removed decades ago. In this case, the tracks that the current #2 and #5 trains use is the outer tracks, while the tracks leading to the Third Avenue El were the inner set. Another difference is that the middle track splits into switches for the both the uptown and downtown direction tracks, resulting in two tracks, then those two tracks divide into four tracks for the different levels. Thus trains that use the middle track could come from either level or line. Just a thought. Mike |
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| (984347) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 14:41:38 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Michael549 on Wed Sep 29 14:33:34 2010. I think the fact that it appears to be little used is evidence enough to suggest there were no switches on the northern end. If there was, it would have allowed Wyckoff Ave to act as a terminal, something I am sure would have been done during rush hours when both el and subway trains served this line. Ending some el trains at Wyckoff would probably reduce congestion at Metropolitan Ave. |
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| (984355) | |
Re: Question about BU's with middle doors: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Sep 29 14:55:25 2010, in response to Re: Question about BU's with middle doors: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 14:29:00 2010. From what I understand their use was discontinued long before Sands and Park Row were abandoned and I believe the doors were permanently sealed and seats installed by the doorways. It probably had to do with the fact that only a limited number of BUs had center doors and they were probably mixed in so randomly with other classes of gate cars that their use was rendered impractical. |
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| (984376) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Sep 29 16:21:25 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Dan on Wed Sep 29 14:04:45 2010. Not AFAIK. |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Mellow One on Wed Sep 29 16:26:23 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Michael549 on Wed Sep 29 14:33:34 2010. St Ann's Jct looking East on the IRT Westchester Ave Subway structure in 1904 showing the two track 3rd Ave El ramping down to the junction. The outer tracks are the subway tracks. The 3rd Ave El junction at 150th St was two-track level double crossing at this time. The Harlem River Tunnel was not complete when the 2nd and 3rd Ave Els started service on the line to the Bronx Park Zoo Terminal at East 180th St on Nov 26, 1904. IRT Subway service began on July 10, 1905 and superceded the the El service until the 2nd Ave El began the Freeman St Express rush hour sevice on Oct 1, 1907. |
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| (984381) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 16:31:29 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 12:48:00 2010. Well originally, they weren't intending to abandon the lower Myrtle, so it would have made sense to add the covers. |
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| (984382) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 16:33:09 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 13:42:49 2010. I haven't seen a picture with a train on it, but it's also hard to find any picture of it to begin with! The photo in the original post, and this one at the interlocking of the lower and upper Myrtle are the only two photos I have every seen with the actual track in, much less with a train on it. |
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| (984383) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 16:33:33 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Sep 29 13:37:12 2010. Well, that photo was taken in 1948, about the time they ripped up the center track. |
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| (984384) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 16:34:49 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Sep 29 13:37:12 2010. It appears only the Broadway El trains had access to the center track, the Myrtle Trains didn't appear to have access judging by the angle of the pulled out interlocking. |
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| (984385) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 16:36:44 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 13:42:49 2010. I still believe this track was meant more to connect the Myrtle Ave line to the original elevated 14th St. line through the area.Yes, all signs lead to the track being built in anticipation of the Canarsie line being built as the Wyckoff El, as originally intended. It appears from the photo Newkirk Bill posted, that the trains from the Broadway El Chambers Route, may have been intended to run express to Wyckoff, and then probably onto the Canarsie line that would have connected with the Myrtle Line at grade. |
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| (984387) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 16:39:08 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 14:41:38 2010. I still find it hard to believe that there were no track connections between express track and the local tracks at Wyckoff. There may have been switches there, with a tail track going to Seneca for lay ups.I would have to see physical proof that there was no switch at the north end of the Wyckoff station for this track, as it seems so asinine otherwise, even if they were anticipating the Canarsie line being at grade. |
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| (984390) | |
Re: Question about BU's with middle doors: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Sep 29 16:41:49 2010, in response to Re: Question about BU's with middle doors: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 14:29:00 2010. The center doors on those gate cars were sealed long before 1944. Park Row was pared down to one island platform in 1935, beginning on March 31st, 1935, when the other platforms were closed. Actual demolition began in August. My guess is the center doors were sealed in the 1920's, after the Dual Contracts subway tunnels and bridge routes connected Manhattan and Brooklyn. |
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| (984405) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 17:52:01 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 16:39:08 2010. You'd think they'd have installed them after the fact to make the middle track useful. Maybe this was one of those things the city was supposed to pay for and the BMT refused to do itself (like replace Marcy Ave or fund the Ashland Place connector). |
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| (984406) | |
Re: Question about BU's with middle doors: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 17:53:20 2010, in response to Re: Question about BU's with middle doors: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Sep 29 16:41:49 2010. I suppose demand for service to Park Row nosedived after the subways were fully operational. |
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| (984409) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 18:00:18 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Mellow One on Wed Sep 29 16:26:23 2010. Freeman St. express? I know there was 2nd Ave el service to 180th St until the subway and then Freeman St afterwards, but I assumed it was local. |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Sep 29 18:01:23 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 12:48:00 2010. Myrtle between Bway/Myrt and Bridge St never had covered 3rd rail.It retained open elevated type rail to the end. I worked Myrtle as a C/R in 1967 and as a M/M in 1969 and in that time the 3rd rail was always open el type. I also checked photos of the el from 1969 and they all show open elevated 3rd rail with the subway shoes on the Qs riding in the up position characteristic of subway shoes on el type 3rd rail in all BMT locations that had it. |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 18:03:32 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Randyo on Wed Sep 29 18:01:23 2010. You are correct, I was probably thinking of the Third Ave el, which did get the covered rails. |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Sep 29 18:04:45 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 18:00:18 2010. The Freeman St service was express on 2 Av and at that time all IRT services were local in the Bronx with the exception of the 3 Av Thru Expresses which were express all the way to Tremont. After the 2 Av El was demolished some 3 Av Expresses took over the Freeman St service until 1946 when Freeman St El service was discontinued. |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Sep 29 18:09:43 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 18:03:32 2010. 3rd Av only got subway 3rd rail on the Bronx portion only after the Steinways were transferred there. |
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| (984431) | |
Re: Question about BU's with middle doors: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Wed Sep 29 19:13:25 2010, in response to Re: Question about BU's with middle doors: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Sep 29 16:41:49 2010. There is one surviving car, #659 at Branford. I suppose we couldchip away at the concrete floor around the seat risers at the former center doorway. If the floor goes under the seats, it would suggest that the doors were sealed after the concrete was poured. From photo evidence, it seems that the concrete floors were done ca 1929-1931. |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 19:35:44 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Randyo on Wed Sep 29 18:09:43 2010. I took this photo in 1990 of the leads to the Myrtle El at Bushwick Ave, and it appears the third rails have covers, and I remember them having covers there: |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 19:38:06 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 18:03:32 2010. I wonder how far the covers went, as I remember them on the leads up to the upper level, but perhaps it only went into that station, as all the other photos don't have the covers further down the line. |
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| (984438) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 19:40:16 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 19:35:44 2010. They did have them into the Broadway station, but they must have stopped somewhere between Broadway and Sumner:
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| (984445) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Sep 29 20:28:34 2010, in response to Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 08:39:44 2010. I did some research on the abandoned express track on the Mytle Avenue Line and came up with the following.The late David Rogoff wrote an article entitled "BRT-BMT Eastern Division Abandoned Trackage" which appeared in the April, June and August 1968 issues of the NYD Bulletin. In this article he states that as part of the Dual Contract rebuilding of the Myrtle Avenue El north of Broadway a third track was installed. This track was never used in revenue service and was removed sometime after World War II. Mr Bernard Linder wrote a series of articles about the Myrtle Avenue including track plans which ran in The Bulletin from November, 1996 to February, 1997. The December. 1996 issue has detailed track plans of the el both before and after the Dual Contracts. The center express track is shown as extending from a point south of Central Avenue through Wycloff Avenue to a point just south of the Seneca Avenue Station. The only switches were at the southern end so the center track could only be used for layups. Also the center tracks could only be accessed by Myrtle Chambers trains and not those coming from Jay Street. According to Mr Linder the third track was removed by 1949. I seem to recall the bumping block at Seneca Avenue but I'm not sure if its still there. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Sep 29 20:35:34 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 18:00:18 2010. The Second Avenue El actually had three express services; Freeman Street, Bronx Park and Corona. The first two ran rush hours only but the Corona Express ran middays as well. All three ran on Saturdays as well for the half-day work day.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (984465) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Sep 29 21:21:49 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 19:40:16 2010. That's correct. |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 21:25:41 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 19:35:44 2010. Wow, I really miss the beige/gold color the els were, I really don't like the green, it makes everything look darker underneath the el. I don't know why they went back to green. |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 21:27:03 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Sep 29 20:28:34 2010. Thanks a lot for your research Larry! |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Wed Sep 29 21:28:16 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 29 17:52:01 2010. OK, so what was the reason that there was that tower at Wyckoff Ave staton ? could there have been swtch tracks after the curve intoWycoff Ave ? Karl M |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Sep 29 21:29:14 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 21:27:03 2010. Anytime. Glad to help.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Sep 29 21:32:12 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Sep 29 20:28:34 2010. Mystery solved.Seemed like a total waste of money to build that track. I wonder how often it was actually used? We'll never know. |
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Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Sep 29 21:33:22 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Wed Sep 29 21:28:16 2010. Another mystery but the building was used by support staff: like track dept. |
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| (984476) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Sep 29 21:33:37 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 21:25:41 2010. I suppose they thought it looked rather too close to the color of corrosion. |
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| (984483) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Sep 29 21:53:45 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 21:25:41 2010. The green blends in with the trees and disguises the fact that the el is even there. Just a nice shady lane...
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| (984487) | |
Re: Myrtle Line Express Track |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Sep 29 22:04:55 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Line Express Track, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Wed Sep 29 21:28:16 2010. Another mystery, but it was probably also built at the same time as the center track, and in anticipation of the Canarsie line being a Wykcoff El instead of being a subway. |
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