|
|
| Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar (1173451) | |
 |
|
| Home > OTChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
Page 15 of 22 |
||
|
| (1182134) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Fri May 9 17:05:50 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Fri May 9 13:22:04 2014. Nope. Still racist.Where does it say that a country is obligated to take in a people extremely hostile to it? Yes, two warring populations divided their homeland. However, in a separate decision at best tangentially related to that, one country decided to declare itself a home for one limited and arbitrary demographic at the expense of any other. Which you can't seem to wrap your head around. It's actually seriously related, since you'd probably want to keep the people trying to destroy your new country out of said country, and at least in the beginning want to focus on your original task. And please define "at the expense of any other". By that your implying Israel closed existing doors to emigrants or otherwise took away something from them. Good. Then it should have no trouble accepting, say, a tenth of that. Regardless of their religious persuasion. That's something that Israel's Interior Ministry (or whatever the department is called) will have decide. Sigh, I keep forgetting that you can't understand anything less subtle than an anvil to the face. The point is, in 2014 there is no holocaust underway, so your hypothetical is irrelevant. If you modify your hypothetical to assume I'm in 1940, then it's irrelevant to the topic of this debate, as Israel didn't exist in 1940 and I'd have no problem with it prioritising refugees fleeing from the Nazis if it did. You better hold on to that anvil, because you need it for own head. I was commenting on your total lack of empathy and possibly imagination, which explains your overly idealistic views and in your inability to respond to the situation I proposed. Not to mention I excluded Israel's right of return, so Israel was already off the table as a surefire haven. After all, racism, sexism, and many other forms of prejudice are commonplace, religious schisms are hardly unheard of, and democracies do sometimes become dictatorships, especially when they have a lot of government secrecy and a habit of "targeted killings" of anyone they deem a threat. Since you admit that such attitudes are still a problem, why, again, do you propose torpedoing an existing working solution for one that has much less chance of working, especially in the long term? In fact why don't you try putting out more working examples of your solution (in places which can actually handle the numbers) before trying to fix something as complicated as Israel? If you're making long-term disaster plans for a potential genocide, then relying on the continued existence, stability, and acceptance of/from one particular country is probably not a good idea anyway. It's better than trying to change the immigration policies of every country in the world, at the very least a damn sight more achievable. You keep missing the point, that after being rejected by other countries, it's a bit hypocritical to build your own country and start rejecting others. Unless, of course, you're willing to admit to a double standard, but that's also wrong. They voted to create a Jewish state primarily for Jews, since none existed, and never said otherwise. Unless they start abusing the non-Jewish citizens of their country, I'm more than satisfied to leave it at that. |
|
|
| (1182150) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Fri May 9 17:47:36 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Fri May 9 14:02:15 2014. No country has ever been completely accepting of immigrants. It's doubtful Jews were singled out specifically.Maybe or maybe not, but a lot more of their demographic was targeted than the Japanese. The problem that persecuted refugees need somewhere to go when no one else will take them? Yeah, they can probably solve that one. And what's the basis for this optimistic viewpoint? Oh that's a fun argument. Yeah, slavery was definitely mitigated by the fact that we openly declared the slaves to be inferior. You know, I'm actually inclined to draw the parallel to the Nazis themselves— they were largely unashamed to admit to their double standard, so I suppose they weren't hypocrites either. It's better to know what the policy actually is than having to find out after having blown your one and only chance of escaping on a closed door or worse. |
|
|
| (1182155) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 18:31:08 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Fri May 9 14:02:15 2014. The Law of Return grants the rights of CITIZENSHIP to all Jews, no questions asked. Furthermore, the Law of Return does not permit the deportation of Jews from Israel, and if a Jew shows up at the airport without a passport, he or she can still be admitted to the country as it is that person's right to do so.Refugees are not necessarily turned away upon arrival, but they are not entitled to all the benefits of citizenship. |
|
|
| (1182157) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 18:35:21 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 18:31:08 2014. Not all Jews. |
|
|
| (1182173) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Edwards! on Fri May 9 20:27:33 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 16:40:36 2014. never had any use for a lying sack of jew hating shitbags.if what you say is true..that fairly drives home my disgust with you.. since THAT IS YOUR M.O. |
|
|
| (1182299) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 10:13:13 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:38:43 2014. Ah, so we finally get to the substance of what you believe. And lo and behold, I've been right this entire time!Oh please. You've never even been in the same postal code as right. This is an argument that many Jews and Israelis make, and Israel does take in many refugees for humanitarian reasons, assuming they can make it from Africa to Israel without getting killed for one reason or another. Ah good. However, Israel does not have the resources to accept every single refugee from every single demographic in need of humanitarian aid, the country would be overwhelmed by that. "Every single one?" Of course not. But giving decidedly non-oppressed people priority simply because of their religion isn't right. The fact that you call out Israel for the crap it is supposedly pulling in Palestine (which I need to remind you yet again is not a country) while saying nothing about the other countries that contribute to the problem proves my point... No. This is the point you consistently fail to grasp: Criticising one contributor to a problem does not imply endorsement of the others. I call out America for the crap it pulled in Iraq— that doesn't mean I ever supported Hussein. I call out America for the crap it's pulling in Afghanistan— that doesn't mean I support the Taliban and/or whichever faction is currently in charge. I criticise Israel for the crap it's pulling in Palestine— that doesn't mean I support Hamas, Egypt, Jordan, or any other entity that's contributing to the problem. The reason I call out America, America, and Israel respectively is because in each of those problems, the nation I'm calling out is the one I'm best equipped to change the policy of. Moreover, sort of like in an OTChat debate, Israel is the only country worth calling out because they're the only country with the potential to realise what they're doing is wrong; I doubt Hamas will respond to anything except removal. ... you see Israel as the country that began all this... Swing and a miss! Well, you missed the ball at any rate. You hit another straw man with great force. You know, if you would stop making ridiculous assumptions about what I "must" believe, then you would make a lot more sense. ...and somehow, Israel is also going to single-handedly end it. Well the problem of non-oppressed Jews getting priority over oppressed refugees in immigration permission is exclusively Israel's problem so it's exclusively theirs to fix. The Israel/Palestine problem is unlikely to be fixed any time soon, so I'm not expecting anyone to do it. That doesn't mean Israel's current policy can't be improved on. Is this because, as you claim, the other countries in the region are fucked up beyond repair? "Beyond repair" is a bit absolute, but I wouldn't hesitate to imply it to Syria at the moment. In that case, maybe the world needs to set out to repair those countries instead of fixating on Israel's relatively benign problems. You do realise that the world is capable of working on more than one problem at a time, right? It's not like convincing Israel to change its policies on immigration and/or Palestine somehow precludes efforts to establish a stable democracy in Egypt or end the civil war in Syria or solve global warming (which apparently kicked off the civil war in Syria). Somehow, I manage to protest America's policy of torturing political prisoners and New York City's policy of "stop and frisk." And you know, the latter seems to have ended. It's almost as if relatively benign problems are also relatively easy to fix! That isn't to say that Israel isn't without flaws, it certainly isn't. Then why have you been throwing a fit over my fairly mild criticisms of its current policy? But they are blown way out of proportion compared to what is going on in the rest of the world. I can name at least a dozen countries much worse than America and yet, I criticise it. That there are worse problems in the world doesn't excuse yours. And that some people want you destroyed for bullshit reasons does not mean everyone who criticises you is one of them. And the plight of the Palestinians is not all that bad compared to some other impoverished, persecuted populations on this planet, let's put this in perspective. It isn't good, but it could be much worse. "It could be worse" might make you feel better about your predicament, but it hardly excuses it. There are plenty of Jews who believe that the Torah was written by Moses with God's dictation at Sinai and cannot be changed in any way. Yes, plenty of. However, I said "at least some self-awareness" not "complete self-awareness." Everyone I know (even the ones who keep kosher) admit that most of the rules were made up by dudes and even take pride in that. Depending on what texts you read, Judaism is no less virulent than Christianity or Islam, and you have people such as Meir Kahane, Yigal Amir and Baruch Goldstein who prove that. My apologies; I said "virulent" but I probably should have said "contagious." Judaism is not known for its efforts to force conversions en masse and so its ability to cause harm is limited by the tiny size of its fanbase. Finally, you let your hatred of all organized religion show yet again, even though no one else here is forcing you to be religious or not. Organised religion has held humanity back for centuries. It corrupts scientific research and education and inspires mass murder. Even its peaceful adherents contribute to the atrocities indirectly by providing an atmosphere in which doing things for stupid reasons is considered socially acceptable and expected. And just a few decades ago, I would have been forced to become religious in my own country— and I would today in many parts of the world. At the moment, my country is in the grip of a political party intending to dismantle it for their personal profit but which remains politically viable because religious people have programmed reactions to buzzwords and displays of piety, and their religions discourage thinking lest they see their holy books for the ancient myths that they are. So being a little miffed at organised religion is expected. Learn to live and let live, you might find yourself with fewer issues here. I'm pretty sure I'm doing exactly that. Unless, of course, your idea of "live and let live" includes immunity from criticism, in which case that's not going to happen and no one should expect that it would. |
|
|
| (1182300) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 10:13:35 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 12:41:24 2014. It's a pity my team was at bat. |
|
|
| (1182302) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 10:15:21 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 16:10:08 2014. It's an insistence I hear a lot. I'll have to save the "baptismal certificate" thing for another argument in another place at another time. |
|
|
| (1182303) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 10:16:12 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 16:36:47 2014. You still haven't explained exactly how I'm antisemitic. |
|
|
| (1182304) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 10:16:48 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 16:10:28 2014. I believe it, but it has nothing to do with what I said. |
|
|
| (1182306) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 10:37:56 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:53:04 2014. Guess what? If you want, you can walk into an unkosher McDonald's (of which there are many in Israel) and order a cheeseburger if you really want it. If that's what you really want to do, by all means, go and do it, no one is going to stop you.That's rather a lot of noise and yet it took a rather circuitous route around my point and failed to address it entirely. My point was this: Israel will accept any Jew from anywhere at any time (but doesn't extend the same welcome mat for other people). Neither the Czech Republic nor Slovakia do anything comparable, and so they don't demonstrate your claim that Israel is hardly unique in that respect. But stop being an asshole because no one here is saying you need to be religious, those of us who are religious are merely asking you to respect our choices. I do. Unfortunately, it's becoming increasingly clear that you don't want "respect," you want a free pass on criticism. No one gets that and no one should expect it. It wasn't a joke, it was downright insulting and rude. Case in point. The only way it could be considered "rude" and "insulting" is if you consider it inherently rude an insulting that I don't subscribe to your religion or that I practice its rituals "incorrectly" or that I mention doing so. I mentioned this in that thread itself, but I don't think I got a response so I'll repeat it. I have, on several occasions, been invited to a Seder that was not kosher and which included readings from a homemade Haggadah that deviated significantly from the standard text. Was that "rude" and "insulting?" Even "antisemitic?" Chris isn't exactly a popular Jewish name, so I'd hope the Interior Ministry and Jewish Agency look into how he got that name and ensure he has the proper documentation as he tries to apply for citizenship or a work visa (the documentation requirement are basically the same). But provided he has a letter from a recognized rabbi indicating he is Jewish, money to pay his fees, shows up for his interview with the Jewish Agency if he is making aliyah as opposed to just applying for a work visa, etc., he should be good to go. And there it is. He should be good to go— as long as he has a letter from a rabbi to prove he's Jewish. No letter? Not so good to go. The choice of "Chris Cohen" was deliberate— combining a seemingly Jewish name with a non-Jewish one makes it ambiguous as to his religious persuasion and background. It obviously worked, since you've provided more detail than I was expecting about the need to prove one's Judaism in order to get entry permission. And having gone through that process (and being told I needed an updated letter proving I was Jewish because the one I brought to a visa renewal appointment was two years old, like I was somehow not Jewish anymore), it is cumbersome, even for those of us who should breeze through it. Admittedly, it is possible to convert (or deconvert) within the space of two years so, while I think the special-consideration-for-Jews thing isn't so great I can see why they'd ask for a more recent letter. As I wrote elsewhere, it might be the "decent" thing to do, but Israel is not set up nor can it serve as a refuge for every single persecuted person on the planet. Israel takes in lots of refugees who aren't Jewish. Which is good. I'm glad we agree on that then. I still don't think non-persecuted Jews should take priority over persecuted goyim though. And I suspect Israel takes in fewer refugees than it should. Many of them fled to one country only to find it subsequently conquered by the Nazis and now they were no better off than before. And as Gamera wrote, lots of countries didn't open the door at all, never mind holding it open even. Yes, many nations closed their doors. My point was it's hypocritical for Israel to do the same thing. |
|
|
| (1182307) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 10:39:27 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:53:36 2014. So now it means criticising Judaism? You're out of luck, I'm afraid— I criticise bad ideas without regard for what their proponents think of them. |
|
|
| (1182311) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 10:53:34 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 13:05:59 2014. I'm sick of you blaming Israel for singlehandedly creating the Palestinians' plight...And that's another straw man beaten. I don't think anybody here believes Israel has "singlehandedly" created the Palestinians' plight. while making no mention of the refugees in camps in countries such as Syria and Jordan who blah blah blah blah blah How many times have I had to tell you this? Criticising one problem does not imply endorsement of any others. Criticising one contributor to a problem does not imply endorsement or denial of any other contributor's actions. They are most definitely not irrelevant, I guess you don't read or care what the Jordanians and Egyptians on the street feel about Israel. OK, so we've gone from "Egypt" to "some random dude in Cairo." What he thinks doesn't particularly matter. Egypt is keeping to itself. Israel targets terrorists, not civilians. Yes, and Guantanamo locks up terrorists, not civilians. If you're willing to take a government's word that all the people it kills are "terrorists" then you really haven't gotten the hang of democracy. Israel regrets doing so, but Hamas doesn't follow the rules of war. Wait, I thought you said Palestine was not a country? Would you make up your mind on whether it's a country or not? Incidentally, Israel isn't following the rules of war either since their blockade targets civilians. Perhaps you should call them out for it. I have. Repeatedly. You don't seem to have noticed, because you're married to the assumption that I somehow support them. Actually, Israel and the Palestinians might reach a peace agreement if they started serious negotiations, oddly enough. Did you ever consider that possibility? Repeatedly. You're the one who dismissed it. Unfortunately, peace negotiations are unlikely to happen— Hamas doesn't want peace, and Israel doesn't want to get rid of Hamas. Actually, Israel exerts little to no control in various parts of the West Bank, per the Oslo Accords, and in Gaza where they have fully disengaged. However, when this is pointed out to you, you insist otherwise. So the blockade is simultaneously justified and nonexistent. Got it. Seriously, a terror state. My point is, "terror state" is one of the meaningless buzzwords politicians made up to drive unthinking outrage. My point is people like you who who insist Israel can't have it both ways are the ones setting the ridiculous double standards that Israel can't possibly overcome because no matter what decision it makes, it makes the wrong one in your eyes. How am I setting a "ridiculous double standard?" I'm the one criticising Israel for its double standard. Your argument that I'm setting a double standard is based on the assumption that I hold beliefs that I don't. |
|
|
| (1182316) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 11:04:01 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 15:47:39 2014. Israel DOES act better!!That's my point. An student with an A+ average who gets a B on one test by cross-multiplying when he should have multiplied would probably get more criticism than a failing student who got (yet another) F on the test by declaring the answer to the same question is "polka dots." The latter student did much worse, but he doesn't face as much criticism because by this point the teacher knows he's going to drop out anyway and simply doesn't bother. I don't care what day of the week you put it on my desk. Why do you insist on making these Jewish references, especially since they don't even make sense? If you want to come to SubChat on Shabbos to read this, be my guest. I figured it was your choice not to. I'm not asking for the list of secret stuff they've done. I'm asking for the list of the obvious stuff you claim they've done like bombing buses full of civilians, just like what the Palestinians have done. So where's the list you offered? I've never claimed all of their stuff was "obvious." Bombing a bus is the tactic of a desperate underdog. Israel has the money and the military to employ tactics that don't result in the demise of the agent carrying them out. Unfortunately, that also means they're better able to cover their tracks. Like I said. 10 minutes with Mossad's files and I'll have the list for you. Yes, a terrorist state. Which means...? Please provide your working definition of the phrase "terrorist state." |
|
|
| (1182319) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 11:08:59 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 13:07:18 2014. It is far easier to be atheist or agnostic and claim to be an adherent of the local religion than to be Jewish and claim to be an adherent of the local religion.Both require the use of time and money which is at best wasted and at worst, used to support a cause you oppose. Both involve living a lie, where you deny who you are and what you believe day in and day out, which is extremely stressful. (Just ask a formerly closeted gay person or, for that matter, a formerly closeted atheist.) That Judaism requires its own suite of pointless rituals that are hard to hide from the Religion Police is a self-imposed handicap. And I thought everything before 1967 or some other date you chose arbitrarily was irrelevant anyway. OK, now you're being deliberately obtuse. I think at this point you know damn well what I believe and are just trolling. |
|
|
| (1182323) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 11:11:56 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 15:53:02 2014. Gish Gallop: A debate tactic pioneered by creationist Duane Gish that entails stating a large number of lies in very quick succession, such that your opponent doesn't have time to rebut all of them, then using the unrebutted lies as proof of your point.My question is obvious: Am I led to believe that you are conceding humanists have faced at least as much oppression as jews and are thus just as entitled to their own dedicated state? |
|
|
| (1182327) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 11:18:26 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 14:21:10 2014. When at a loss, denying always works. Remember, posting "LOL" means you're right. |
|
|
| (1182329) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Sat May 10 11:23:01 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 11:04:01 2014. I've never claimed all of their stuff was "obvious." Bombing a bus is the tactic of a desperate underdog. Israel has the money and the military to employ tactics that don't result in the demise of the agent carrying them out. Unfortunately, that also means they're better able to cover their tracks.Like I said. 10 minutes with Mossad's files and I'll have the list for you. Ha. Here's your most serious accusation against the state of Israel, that they deliberately target civilians not connected to terrorists. And your substantiation is that if you had access to Mossad's files you be able to prove your accusation. Well, here's another example of this type of reasoning. Read this carefully. If you were an agent provocateur for the CIA, I could prove it if I had access to their files. |
|
|
| (1182330) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 11:41:31 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Fri May 9 17:05:50 2014. Where does it say that a country is obligated to take in a people extremely hostile to it?Irrelevant. You claimed all Arabs not living in Israel want to destroy Israel. That's racist. It's actually seriously related, since you'd probably want to keep the people trying to destroy your new country out of said country... What, so now everyone on the planet wants to destroy Israel except Jews? If someone shows up at the border and says "I'm from Syria and I want to come in to destroy your country," then obviously Israel wouldn't just open the gate. If someone comes to the border and says "I'm from Uganda and I want to come in because you won't kill me for being gay," then your statement is invalid. ...and at least in the beginning want to focus on your original task. "The beginning" was 1948. It is no longer the beginning. And please define "at the expense of any other". By that your implying Israel closed existing doors to emigrants or otherwise took away something from them. The aforementioned Ugandan is a lower priority for entry permission that the person who shows up at their border and says "I'm from Canada (and I'm also Jewish) and I want to come in because it looks like fun or summat." I was commenting on your total lack of empathy and possibly imagination, which explains your overly idealistic views and in your inability to respond to the situation I proposed. How am I supposed to have "empathy" for the hypothetical victims of the 2014 holocaust that isn't happening? You asked whether I'd trust other countries to take me in if I were in the late 1940s and had just watched my friends and relatives killed. I pointed out that it was moot, because Israel was set up for that specific purpose. I know that being told the situation you proposed is moot and irrelevant is not the answer you wanted to hear, but ignoring it and pretending I was "unable" to respond doesn't help your case. Although it's curious that you'd accuse me of lack of empathy when your own empathy stops abruptly at the in-group border. Jews were not the only people to be killed in the Holocaust (and turned away from other countries) so why wasn't Israel just as inclined to welcome them? Since you admit that such attitudes are still a problem, why, again, do you propose torpedoing an existing working solution for one that has much less chance of working, especially in the long term? I wouldn't exactly call the current Israel/Palestine arrangement a "working solution." And that racism and sexism are problematic hardly helps your point— you've dismissed "the Arab race" as evil and I recall hearing that Israel has a pretty big problem with sexism. It's better than trying to change the immigration policies of every country in the world... On the contrary. Trying to make sure there are a few places you can flee to in a pinch is a more robust solution than declaring that you can absolutely rely on one country that may be gone, no longer accepting, or no longer safe when you actually need to flee. ...at the very least a damn sight more achievable. OK, you got me there. Doing nothing and assuming everything will be OK is a damn sight more achievable than actually improving matters. They voted to create a Jewish state primarily for Jews, since none existed, and never said otherwise. I've had to say this before— declaring you intend to discriminate does not justify your discrimination. |
|
|
| (1182332) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 11:44:42 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri May 9 13:37:45 2014. Everyone of no consequence here fails takes him seriously...Fixed it for you. |
|
|
| (1182333) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 11:47:45 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 15:54:51 2014. You're leaving out Selkirk, Bingbong, and Fred, and those are just the first three that came to mind. I could give you a more detailed list, but you and your friends are extremely prolific (if not necessarily coherent) and my OTChat time is not infinite. |
|
|
| (1182336) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Sat May 10 11:53:26 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 11:41:31 2014. You claimed all Arabs not living in Israel want to destroy Israel.You need relearn the use of the subjunctive mood. |
|
|
| (1182337) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 11:53:28 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Fri May 9 17:47:36 2014. Maybe or maybe not, but a lot more of their demographic was targeted than the Japanese.Something like all the people of Japanese descent were locked up after the US declared an area theoretically vulnerable to attack. Meanwhile, there were Jews who got into the US (and Canada, and England, etc). And what's the basis for this optimistic viewpoint? The fact that they're a country which can set its immigration policy? How many persecuted refugees are there today who have already been turned away by most other countries? It's better to know what the policy actually is than having to find out after having blown your one and only chance of escaping on a closed door or worse. And knowing about which states allow slavery is better than blowing your escape attempt only to end up in another slave state. Announcing a policy does not justify it. |
|
|
| (1182340) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 11:54:26 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 18:31:08 2014. Exactly. That's the double standard I've been criticising. |
|
|
| (1182341) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 11:54:43 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 18:35:21 2014. Really? Which ones aren't? |
|
|
| (1182343) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Sat May 10 11:58:37 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 11:54:43 2014. Chaim Ben Pesach. |
|
|
| (1182352) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 12:08:59 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 14:42:58 2014. I don't need proff, LOL! It's a known fact.Dodging? Check. Declaring your position to be obvious despite complete lack of evidence? Check. Posting "LOL" like a 12-year-old? Check. Red 72-point font engaged. PROFF OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. And when have I ever denied that? Just here. |
|
|
| (1182353) | |
Re: “Palestinian” university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 12:10:21 2014, in response to Re: “Palestinian” university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 14:44:38 2014. An exaggeration combined with a qualifier. Come back when you have a real argument. |
|
|
| (1182356) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 12:11:33 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 14:30:08 2014. And the two Koreas are technically "at war."Which countries are doing the fighting you seem to think is happening today? |
|
|
| (1182357) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 12:12:32 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 14:47:33 2014. Which wars are currently being fought today? You guys keep implying them but can't seem to point to any. |
|
|
| (1182359) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 12:14:14 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by AlM on Fri May 9 15:18:38 2014. Not to ChicagoMotorman. He's a Jewish supremacist, so to him that's basically the driving factor that determines whether you're right or not. That and/or race. |
|
|
| (1182360) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 12:14:42 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 15:50:24 2014. Link to where I expressed antisemitic sentiments or shut up. |
|
|
| (1182361) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 12:16:15 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 16:01:03 2014. OK, I get the sentiment and I'd be the first to classify CHIMM as a stupid poster, but it didn't look like a stupid question to me. |
|
|
| (1182362) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 12:22:49 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 16:25:52 2014. My response to that question? Did I even post it specifically? Link to which post you consider my response please. |
|
|
| (1182363) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 12:23:37 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 16:37:31 2014. You disrespected me and the 12.999999999999999999999 million Jews on this planet.So the Jewish population of the Earth is 12,999,999.999999999999999? Who's the 0.999999999999999? A guy who's Jewish but shrugged and said "whatever" when he discovered leftover chametz in his kitchen during Passover? :) |
|
|
| (1182380) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 13:13:11 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 15:47:13 2014. I'm not supporting theocracy in either the US or Israel, so I'm not sure why you think that I am.I don't think that you are per se; I'm noting that it's one possible interpretation for your statements before moving on to more likely ones. It isn't inherently disrespectful for you to think my religion is wrong, it is disrespectful for you to express it in the way that you do. 1. In what way did I express my position "disrespectfully?" 2. On what basis do you call it disrespectful? 3. And what do you think I should have said? While you claim I'm disrespectful of your beliefs... I never claimed that. Meanwhile, you fail to see/understand why pointing out that you're going to contemplate having a bacon cheeseburger on matza on Erev Pesach is insulting and demeaning to those who keep the holiday. It isn't. Unless you assume that it's inherently offensive for me to not keep kosher, or to announce that I'm not keeping kosher, or to celebrate holidays in a manner you deem "incorrect" or if you consider keeping Passover to be shameful and feel demeaned that I call attention to the fact that you're doing it. Despite my repeated requests, neither you nor anybody else has managed to offer an explanation as to why my cheeseburger was supposedly "offensive" that didn't rely on an absurd enthymeme. You can think about doing that all you want without telling the world that's what you're going to do, because it is insensitive. And there we are. It's "insensitive" for me to express my beliefs that what you're doing is silly. Sorry, you're not getting a free pass on criticism. Nobody does. Israel shares borders with other countries besides Egypt and Jordan. Take a look at a map sometime. This would seem to be a further extension of your commonly applied fallacy that mentioning one thing inherently constitutes denial of another unrelated thing. If you think there isn't any unkosher meat or that no places are open for getting a drink or two (or many) on a Friday in Israel, I have news for you: you're wrong. You're just showing your prejudices against Israel by saying that over and over again. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think that. Best I can think of is a post where I mentioned a hypothetical example of Israel losing its Jewish character to encroaching Christians that you might have taken literally. I've said I object to aspects of Israeli policy vis a vis the Palestinians over the years here. Then why are you throwing such a screaming fit when I do it? I'm waiting for you to acknowledge the role that bodies other than Israel play in contributing to the Palestinians' current plight and that those bodies, arguably, are far better equipped to help the Palestinians than Israel is. Oh you have got to be kidding me. Either explain why you support Kim Jong Un or knock it off with the absurd assumption that criticising Israel's role in the Palestine fiasco somehow implies endorsement or denial of everyone else's. You have also yet to tell me why the blockade is not needed. Because there are better options available. Exactly which ones depends on whether or not Palestine is a country, which you seem unable to take a consistent position on. So let's start— Is Palestine a country? Note that if it has autonomy over its internal affairs and at least some autonomy with regard to foreign policy and a government generally recognised as being in charge of its affairs that is not installed by a foreign power, then the answer is "yes." As long as the Palestinian leadership maintains its current positions WRT Israel and the people don't get rid of said leadership, the thoughts of those people are less significant. "The Palestinian leadership" is a surprisingly flexible category and when a foreign government is at war with you, it is customary to remove them whether its people were planning to or not. While there are certainly Palestinians who would like to coexist with Israel (I've met them)... And they should be confined to blockaded Palestine? Palestine is not a country, but Hamas is the governing power within the Gaza Strip, which is a disputed territory as I've explained to you previously. If they're the governing power of a chunk of land with autonomy over its internal affairs and foreign policy, how is it not a country? Israel is trying to eliminate Hamas with minimal civilian impacts. Bullshit. You have yet to acknowledge that Hamas uses human shields, making it difficult for Israel to fight against Hamas without the occasional, inadvertent killing of innocent civilians who would not be at such a high risk if it weren't for Hamas's illegal tactics. You have yet to acknowledge that Israel uses missiles which are not known for their precise targeting or killing capabilities. Israel and Hamas are most certainly at war, even if Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip. If it's a war, then why did Israel withdraw from the Gaza Strip? I'm assuming the thesis you referred to is yours. Yeah, you do that a lot. Sorry, not my thesis. Just that of someone I know (who talked my ear off about Israel/Palestine relations). |
|
|
| (1182381) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 13:13:39 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 15:13:45 2014. Only if it's lactose-free. |
|
|
| (1182383) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 13:15:48 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 15:14:47 2014. 
|
|
|
| (1182385) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 13:17:15 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 15:51:20 2014. No need for Israel to build infrastructure for Gaza.Not unless they control it. If they don't control it, then building infrastructure would be nice but not necessary and Hamas would rather leave its people impoverished just to spite Israel so it wouldn't matter anyway. |
|
|
| (1182386) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 13:17:42 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 15:52:24 2014. I haven't sidestepped anything. |
|
|
| (1182390) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 13:21:13 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 15:49:59 2014. But they aren't being used for construction, they are being used to make rockets to fire at Israel.What, all of them? How are things constructed then? Israel faces other problems if it removes Hamas by force. Israel facing problems is pretty much guaranteed. |
|
|
| (1182391) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 13:21:30 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 16:08:18 2014. Self-defense is a fairly well-established principle. |
|
|
| (1182394) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 13:24:45 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 16:09:23 2014. Start here. |
|
|
| (1182395) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Sat May 10 13:24:57 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 13:21:13 2014. What, all of them?What if only half of construction material shipped to Gaza were made into bombs? Would Israel then be morally obligated to ship more? |
|
|
| (1182397) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 13:26:40 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 15:51:08 2014. The topic is Israel and its policies. Not Syria's policies. Not Jordan's policies. Whining that I don't explicitly denounce them is no different to whining that you don't explicitly denounce North Korea. |
|
|
| (1182400) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 13:28:39 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 16:12:47 2014. -777.777 |
|
|
| (1182401) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 13:29:05 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 15:52:32 2014. How about using tactics a little bit less indiscriminate than lobbing missiles from afar? |
|
|
| (1182404) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Sat May 10 13:32:47 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 13:29:05 2014. Like what? |
|
|
| (1182405) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 13:34:08 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Fri May 9 15:54:11 2014. How do you know that the attacks are not specifically targeted at Hamas outposts? Because the NY Times and CNN says that Palestinian civilians were killed? That's no proof and you know it.My original statement was a crack at the comments on "innocent" Palestinians in his awkwardly-worded statement. But thanks for admitting that the mainstream media is reporting Palestinian civilian deaths— that's not the sort of thing the right wing media would make up. And about those innocent Gaza Palestinians: I'm not seeing any popular uprisings there, as we saw in Egypt and Syria. I'm not seeing any popular uprisings in North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or, for that matter, America yet I doubt any of those places are happy and sunshine. Finally, if Hamas goons hide in mosques and churches and under women's skirts and behind children, how would you suggest Israel retaliate? More accurately than missiles allow. Seriously, it's like trying to perform surgery with a sledgehammer. |
|
|
| (1182407) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Sat May 10 13:34:56 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 16:16:53 2014. It's not Passover. |
|
|
|
Page 15 of 22 |
||