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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri May 9 10:43:06 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Thu May 8 20:09:51 2014. Well done but why waste your time on him? |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri May 9 11:00:04 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri May 9 10:43:06 2014. SIWOTI |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri May 9 11:00:19 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by AlM on Fri May 9 09:52:43 2014. You are correct. How he quadrupled that population I don't know. But as we all know he's a know-it-all that actually knows very little other than word theater. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 11:47:21 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 18:58:23 2014. Really? What is the disconnect?Palestine isn't a country, but that shouldn't stop the entities that oversee the territory from building up infrastructure within said territory. They are being provided with lots of money to do that sort of thing, but it doesn't seem to go to anything other than corrupt leaders, who then convince people like you that Israel is the source of all their misery because their land lacks proper infrastructure. You're just a tool of the Palestinian propaganda machine. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 11:48:20 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 19:25:01 2014. You seem to be denying all those underlying issues in your relentless defense of your idealistic worldview. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:06:22 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 18:22:08 2014. I don't have strong opinions about 1, but I'm not sure that birthright citizenship is obsolete.I think 2 is the crux of many of your problems here. I don't give a damn if you are religious or not, but I am religious, and provided my religious choices don't negatively impact your life (and they don't in this case, and they sure as hell don't in the case of your Passover thread), you should respect my choices in the way I respect yours. Once you grasp this concept, you might find you have fewer adversaries here, especially since the religious posters here have a live and let live attitude when it comes to how others practice for the most part. If a state wishes to maintain policies such as Israel's (Jewish and Democratic), then it does need to manage its demographics in a way you find objectionable, or else it has to engage in policies that are far worse (i.e. an apartheid style system to ensure a minority rules over a majority). Israel seeks to live in peace with its neighbors, its neighbors need to demonstrate that they wish to live in peace with Israel. Judaism agrees with you on number 4, however, security and other issues sometimes have to trump this priority. Israel is not creating poverty within the disputed territories, the poverty is the result of a group of people being abandoned by the countries and people who are best suited to help that population, leaving Israel "responsible" in the eyes of many (such as yourself, who have been deluded by the Palestinian propaganda against Israel) for neglecting a population that it doesn't want to be part of its own country and that doesn't want to be part of Israel. See the problem here? Point 5 is reasonably fair. By your own admission on point 6, Israel's policies in the disputed territories are justified. Israel has been at war with some countries and entities for 66 years, including Hamas, which is the governing power in the Gaza Strip. By this logic, Israel is justified in its policies in both Gaza and the West Bank. Furthermore, while you claim it is a disproportionate response for Israel to bomb mosques in the Gaza Strip in response to the rockets sent over from Gaza to Israel by Hamas, you make no mention of the fact that Hamas uses human shields and purposely places its weapons infrastructure in densely populated areas in order to maximize civilian casualties. In other words, Israel's policies are much closer to your ideals than those of the PA or Hamas. I guess Israel isn't that horrible of a country after all... |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:08:06 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 19:22:30 2014. What about the Palestinians in refugee camps in Syria and Jordan who are not allowed to apply for citizenship in the countries that they presently live in and have infrastructure? Why no pressure on them for their unjust policies that impoverish the Palestinians who are unable to assimilate into the countries they now find themselves? |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:09:56 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 18:50:37 2014. You seem to have no problem with Hamas firing rockets at Israeli civilians or blowing up public buses that transport Israeli civilians, yet demand that Israel not drop bombs on Gaza or stop committing other terrorist attacks against innocent Palestinians. Your words say plenty about where you stand and how deluded you are. |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 12:15:06 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 11:47:21 2014. +++++11111111 Great seller! Would buy from again. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:16:26 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 18:56:21 2014. You do single out Israel for special treatment in your posts. Change what you write or accept the fact this is in fact what you believe.The Syrian border with Israel has effectively never been open to anything aside from select Druze, limited apple exports, and humanitarian emergencies. I hear Damascus is really pretty, but I can't visit. Doesn't seem to perturb you at all. Israel lets plenty of supplies in to Gaza on a daily basis. They don't allow things that might be used as weapons because Hamas has demonstrated they will use each and every one of those items for that purpose, not the item's intended purpose. Why should Israel allow that? Israel does not control Gaza's internal affairs. They are therefore disengaged. Israel doesn't control Syria's internal affairs but they share a border, is Israel engaged in Syria? Or does the supposed occupation of the Golan Heights mean that Israel is somehow engaged? Your double standards aren't being missed by the rest of us. |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 12:17:22 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:06:22 2014. Great post. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:17:38 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 19:00:47 2014. The center moves, as I suggested in my last post. These are also terms that change over time and from country to country. You might be appalled to know what most of the "left" thinks Israel should do vis a vis the Palestinians. |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 12:17:52 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:08:06 2014. Zing zing zing! |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:18:51 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 19:27:50 2014. No it is not. As 3-9 said, you strongly imply that Israel's policies are the sole cause of Palestinian impoverishment, which is very far from the truth. If you think otherwise, you need to say so. |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 12:18:58 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:16:26 2014. You're on a roll! |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:21:55 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 19:31:13 2014. Quite a few, but that's not particularly relevant—Actually, it is very relevant to the point of this thread, which way back when, started with an article about the need for mutual understanding. Maybe when you've had to find shelter from incoming Hamas rockets while at work or in your apartment, as I have, or when you've met a group of Palestinians in Bethlehem who tell you what they really think of their leaders and of the Israeli leadership, I can pay more attention to you. personal familiarity with individuals of a particular nationality is hardly the best gauge of knowledge of international issues. Olog uses this argument when he is on the verge of defeat, too. It just goes to show that no matter the "flavor" of extremist, they are all the same at the end of the day. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:25:50 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Thu May 8 19:51:36 2014. Well done yet again |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:27:20 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 21:28:53 2014. No, go read history as Gamera suggested. You'll realize that not keeping kosher did NOT change your status in the eyes of the Nazis. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:38:43 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 20:05:21 2014. Ah, so we finally get to the substance of what you believe. And lo and behold, I've been right this entire time!but it's a bit hypocritical of them to declare they exist for the purpose of accepting Jews who will be turned away elsewhere and then turn away every other oppressed group in exactly the same fashion This is an argument that many Jews and Israelis make, and Israel does take in many refugees for humanitarian reasons, assuming they can make it from Africa to Israel without getting killed for one reason or another. However, Israel does not have the resources to accept every single refugee from every single demographic in need of humanitarian aid, the country would be overwhelmed by that. Living in places such as Sderot, Dimona, Yeruham and Eilat isn't exactly like living in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, and while I'm sure Israel could manage to find a way to absorb hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees if the need ever arose (and let's hope it doesn't), life isn't going to be easy for everyone, refugees and current residents of Israel alike, if that were to happen. the crap they're pulling in Palestine (though not as bad as the crap America is pulling in Pakistan) seriously needs to end. The fact that you call out Israel for the crap it is supposedly pulling in Palestine (which I need to remind you yet again is not a country) while saying nothing about the other countries that contribute to the problem proves my point, you see Israel as the country that began all this, and somehow, Israel is also going to single-handedly end it. Is this because, as you claim, the other countries in the region are fucked up beyond repair? In that case, maybe the world needs to set out to repair those countries instead of fixating on Israel's relatively benign problems. That isn't to say that Israel isn't without flaws, it certainly isn't. But they are blown way out of proportion compared to what is going on in the rest of the world. And the plight of the Palestinians is not all that bad compared to some other impoverished, persecuted populations on this planet, let's put this in perspective. It isn't good, but it could be much worse. It's about as stupid and bullshit as every other religion, but deserves some credit for being much less virulent than, say, Christianity or Islam, and for having at least some self-awareness as to the fact that its laws were made up by dudes rather than handed down by gods. Keep on displaying your ignorance, it's all you seem to be good at. There are plenty of Jews who believe that the Torah was written by Moses with G-d's dictation at Sinai and cannot be changed in any way. Depending on what texts you read, Judaism is no less virulent than Christianity or Islam, and you have people such as Meir Kahane, Yigal Amir and Baruch Goldstein who prove that. Finally, you let your hatred of all organized religion show yet again, even though no one else here is forcing you to be religious or not. Learn to live and let live, you might find yourself with fewer issues here. |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 12:39:59 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:27:20 2014. Pwn3d |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:40:18 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 17:50:23 2014. If it isn't, yihiye bseder. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:40:52 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri May 9 10:43:06 2014. Because it is important that people who think he might be right about the issues at hand see otherwise. |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 12:41:24 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:38:43 2014. Home run. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:42:02 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 20:24:46 2014. The Palestinians can have the right to return to their own country once they establish it, they can't have the right to return to another country they are seeking to undermine and destroy. |
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Posted by AlM on Fri May 9 12:42:34 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:27:20 2014. You had to produce all four of your grandparents' baptismal certificates. And if any of the grandparents were baptized at an age much after birth you might be in trouble too. |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 12:42:38 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:40:52 2014. Usually, yes, but not this time, as it seems that no one of consequence here takes him seriously. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:43:08 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 20:25:20 2014. Then please explain it to me, because I've explained it to you already. And be sure not to leave out why Gaza needs piping, concrete, and nails that just wind up back in Israel in the form of rockets fired at Sderot, Ashkelon, and Be'er Sheva. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:53:04 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 20:22:21 2014. Neither the Czech Republic nor Slovakia is willing to admit anybody on the planet who is willing to deny the tastiness of cheeseburgers and mutilate their kids' genitals.Guess what? If you want, you can walk into an unkosher McDonald's (of which there are many in Israel) and order a cheeseburger if you really want it. If that's what you really want to do, by all means, go and do it, no one is going to stop you. But stop being an asshole because no one here is saying you need to be religious, those of us who are religious are merely asking you to respect our choices. I think it went swimmingly. I made a joke, a bunch of fools threw massive tantrums, and then I mocked them for it and much fun was had by all (except the fools). It wasn't a joke, it was downright insulting and rude. Again, once you realize that, you'll have far fewer problems in this community. Chris Cohen was born in Canada and has never been to Israel. However, at some point, he thinks he'd be able to find a better job in Tel Aviv. Will he be able to move to Israel? What factors might potentially prevent him from doing so? Chris isn't exactly a popular Jewish name, so I'd hope the Interior Ministry and Jewish Agency look into how he got that name and ensure he has the proper documentation as he tries to apply for citizenship or a work visa (the documentation requirement are basically the same). But provided he has a letter from a recognized rabbi indicating he is Jewish, money to pay his fees, shows up for his interview with the Jewish Agency if he is making aliyah as opposed to just applying for a work visa, etc., he should be good to go. And having gone through that process (and being told I needed an updated letter proving I was Jewish because the one I brought to a visa renewal appointment was two years old, like I was somehow not Jewish anymore), it is cumbersome, even for those of us who should breeze through it. The need is substantially less than that of people who face oppression but aren't rich or powerful or connected enough to build their own countries to escape it. Accepting them would be the decent thing to do. As I wrote elsewhere, it might be the "decent" thing to do, but Israel is not set up nor can it serve as a refuge for every single persecuted person on the planet. Israel takes in lots of refugees who aren't Jewish. How many Jews fled to how many countries in the 1930s and 40s only to be turned away because those countries couldn't possibly hold the doors open for everyone and anyone who needs to flee something, at least not to settle permanently? Many of them fled to one country only to find it subsequently conquered by the Nazis and now they were no better off than before. And as Gamera wrote, lots of countries didn't open the door at all, never mind holding it open even. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:53:36 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 21:35:28 2014. Although it's highly ironic that you'd call me "antisemitic" given your comments about Arabs— last time I checked, Arabs are a Semitic people, while Judaism, being a religion that anybody can join, has no specific ethnic character.You're technically correct, but the word has evolved and isn't used in the way you describe. |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 13:00:39 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:40:18 2014. That should have been a yes or a no, not a link. |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 13:02:57 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 09:39:45 2014. TerrApin Station, I'm going to presume you too are Jewish. What is YOUR opinion on a 2 state solution? |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 13:05:59 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 19:18:32 2014. See there you go again with the "but other countries do it too!" Genug! I'm sick of hearing it!I'm sick of you blaming Israel for singlehandedly creating the Palestinians' plight while making no mention of the refugees in camps in countries such as Syria and Jordan who deny those refugees the right to become citizens, get jobs, and otherwise integrate into the countries they find themselves, especially when the Palestinians have more in common with the residents of those other countries than with Israel. And that's just for starters... Which confirms my previous point that they are irrelevant to the current political calculations. They are most definitely not irrelevant, I guess you don't read or care what the Jordanians and Egyptians on the street feel about Israel. What, you need a list of all of the "targeted killings" that Israel has done without oversight? Mosques hit by Israeli missiles? Israel targets terrorists, not civilians. Hamas targets civilians and uses them as shields, such that mosques are occasionally hit. Israel regrets doing so, but Hamas doesn't follow the rules of war. Perhaps you should call them out for it. Even if they did begin serious peace negotiations, it wouldn't change their state of limbo except to the extent that Israel might offer them greater independence. Actually, Israel and the Palestinians might reach a peace agreement if they started serious negotiations, oddly enough. Did you ever consider that possibility? Now, I can understand if you're trying to say Palestine is not a country because Israel exerts control over it on a scale comparable to its "nominal leaders" since that's sort of what I've been commenting on. Actually, Israel exerts little to no control in various parts of the West Bank, per the Oslo Accords, and in Gaza where they have fully disengaged. However, when this is pointed out to you, you insist otherwise. "Terror state?" Seriously? Seriously, a terror state. Is Gaza under Hamas not already one? Ah, so according to you, I'm both an "anti-Israel protestor" who is suing a French company and a completely hypothetical person you just made up who, if he existed, would complain about denying transportation access. I never said you were such a person. My point is people like you who who insist Israel can't have it both ways are the ones setting the ridiculous double standards that Israel can't possibly overcome because no matter what decision it makes, it makes the wrong one in your eyes. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 13:06:12 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 09:21:47 2014. I'm glad someone understands me. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 13:07:18 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 19:41:11 2014. It is far easier to be atheist or agnostic and claim to be an adherent of the local religion than to be Jewish and claim to be an adherent of the local religion. And I thought everything before 1967 or some other date you chose arbitrarily was irrelevant anyway. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 13:10:32 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 13:00:39 2014. Did you read the link? |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 13:11:31 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 13:10:32 2014. no. I'll do it now. |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 13:19:20 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 13:11:31 2014. I read it. What was the point? I asked you a simple question. I will rephrase it. You live in Israel, I have never been there. You have a better sense of it's geography than I do. Does Israel have enough room for all the world's Jews? |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri May 9 13:22:04 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Fri May 9 01:58:13 2014. Israeli Arabs seem to live relatively peacefully in Israel. If all the other Arabs want to wipe out Israel, that's their fault.Nope. Still racist. No you're trying to MAKE a difference between two warring populations dividing their homeland and ... two warring populations dividing their homeland. Yes, two warring populations divided their homeland. However, in a separate decision at best tangentially related to that, one country decided to declare itself a home for one limited and arbitrary demographic at the expense of any other. Which you can't seem to wrap your head around. It would be a strain, but they would certainly try. Good. Then it should have no trouble accepting, say, a tenth of that. Regardless of their religious persuasion. So it didn't happen to you, therefore you have no idea what it's like, and it doesn't matter. Got it. Sigh, I keep forgetting that you can't understand anything less subtle than an anvil to the face. The point is, in 2014 there is no holocaust underway, so your hypothetical is irrelevant. If you modify your hypothetical to assume I'm in 1940, then it's irrelevant to the topic of this debate, as Israel didn't exist in 1940 and I'd have no problem with it prioritising refugees fleeing from the Nazis if it did. Considering how anti-Semitism is still present around the world and even in the US to a degree, you've finally found a plausible scenario. A genocide campaign happening in the US is no more plausible than Israel deciding that one sect are Real Jews™ and others aren't, or becoming a dictatorship or discriminating on a basis other than religion. After all, racism, sexism, and many other forms of prejudice are commonplace, religious schisms are hardly unheard of, and democracies do sometimes become dictatorships, especially when they have a lot of government secrecy and a habit of "targeted killings" of anyone they deem a threat. If you're making long-term disaster plans for a potential genocide, then relying on the continued existence, stability, and acceptance of/from one particular country is probably not a good idea anyway. I figured you just didn't have an answer as to how Israel, with its relatively limited resources, should suddenly pretend it has the size and resources of the United States. You keep missing the point, that after being rejected by other countries, it's a bit hypocritical to build your own country and start rejecting others. Unless, of course, you're willing to admit to a double standard, but that's also wrong. |
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Posted by AlM on Fri May 9 13:25:29 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 13:19:20 2014. It was clear to me. The answer is yes. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 13:27:04 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by AlM on Fri May 9 13:25:29 2014. Show me where? I'm not that sophisticated. |
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Posted by AlM on Fri May 9 13:37:25 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 13:27:04 2014. How is "It will be OK" not an answer of "Yes"? |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri May 9 13:37:45 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:40:52 2014. Yes I felt the same way when he first came to this side....but soon realized it wasn'tnecessary as most seen him for the ass he is all on hhis own. No one of any consequence here takes him seriously and the I news that appear to are ones that are humoring him. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 13:49:38 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by AlM on Fri May 9 13:37:25 2014. I guess that makes you more sophisticated than me. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri May 9 14:02:15 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Fri May 9 02:44:38 2014. Yeah, countries that said they were willing to take immigrants...except when it came to all those Jews. Turn them back.No country has ever been completely accepting of immigrants. It's doubtful Jews were singled out specifically. Just off the top of my head, I can remember America and Canada turning away Chinese immigrants, and of course America would never accept black immigrants, and I'd have a hard time naming any country at the time that would have accepted Romani (or gay) immigrants. Then there was America's imprisonment of anybody of Japanese descent— not exactly the best welcome wagon for Japanese people fleeing their home country because they don't support the war and don't want to fight in it. They have enough resources to solve one problem, that others failed to address. Try to solve all of them, they'll end up solving none. It's called overreaching. The problem that persecuted refugees need somewhere to go when no one else will take them? Yeah, they can probably solve that one. Pity they're not even trying. And how does that hypothetical problem fit with the goal that Israel set for itself? Oh come on, you can't seriously be that stupid. The whole point of this debate is whether Israel should have a double standard. Asking how my hypothetical problem is inconsistent with the double standard is the most irrelevant nonsense you could have spewed without ignoring my argument entirely. Still better than hypocrisy. Oh that's a fun argument. Yeah, slavery was definitely mitigated by the fact that we openly declared the slaves to be inferior. You know, I'm actually inclined to draw the parallel to the Nazis themselves— they were largely unashamed to admit to their double standard, so I suppose they weren't hypocrites either. No, you put out a situation where the Israeli Christians started acting like comical fundies. (a) There are Christians who act like comical fundies, so it's hardly impossible that they might infringe on Israel at some point— after all, a good chunk of America's support for Israel is based on the Christian right's belief that they need all the Jews to go there in order to start the apocalypse. (b) Even if they were generally tolerant and accepting, what would happen if the Christians became a majority and started demanding their holidays be recognised as official and opening businesses on Shabbos and so forth? Israel would lose its Jewish character you seem so protective of; are you OK with that? See above about trying to solve all the world's problems. The problem of refugees needing a country that won't kill them is not all of the world's problems. If they have a relative in CR, they can return. If you have a relative living in Israel, then presumably you can "return" there whether you're Jewish or not. I asked about someone who just decided to move there, but whose sole connection to the country is distant ancestry or a self-declaration that he's Czech (which doesn't work so well with regard to a nationality but that's a flaw in the analogy rather than the argument, since anyone can declare themselves to be Jewish with relative ease). Has there been a chronic problem with anti-Czech sentiments? Does it matter? If Israel's policy was that any Jew fleeing persecution was welcome, that would be understandable— a double standard, perhaps, but not a thoroughly odious one. However, that's not the case. Israel's policy is that any Jew is welcome for any reason even while people fleeing persecution are turned away. That's what I have a problem with. Actually in some ways it has. Ever heard of something called Sharia law? Wasn't so popular before, seems to be more popular now. There's been some fun curb stomping in Asia too. Western countries don't occupy as much of the world you think it does. No, but ideas like democracy and equality have been consistently gaining traction— in an area that has never had either, the difference between bloodshed and tension likely to cause bloodshed hardly registers. You're right about Asia, though— a good chunk of the continent is controlled by the Soviet Union which is highly unpleasant and... ...no, wait, the Soviet Union collapsed. The countries carved out of its former territory are hardly paradises but all to most of them are doing better than in Soviet days. Places like Georgia are approaching "reasonably tolerable," Poland seems to be doing pretty well, and the Soviet half of Germany seems to have nearly caught up. Who ever said I'm not? The point is, you used the Republicans as an example to show that historical progress is being reversed and I pointed out it shows the opposite. Yeah, the Nazis were defeated with military power. We didn't so much change their nature as smashed and hunted them down. You mean we should do that to change human nature? You missed the point entirely. Dictators can't come to power without, at minimum, the tolerance or passivity of the population. If more than a few Germans were willing to oppose him (or if other countries were less accepting of him, or if they hadn't squeezed Germany to bursting under the treaty of Versailles) then he'd never have had the chance to kill anyone. By the time military power is the only solution, humanity has already failed. Moreover, you did a nice job of confusing a subset of humanity defined by geography with a subset defined by an ideology. Last time I checked, Germany still exists and its nature has been quite definitively changed since the 1940s. In fact, they've actually banned statements in support of Naziism. Why it's almost as if some people who didn't accept Naziism as an inevitable product of human nature stepped in and changed the prevailing beliefs and habits of a lot of people. Since they apparently have a naturalization process, it would depend on how many people would make it through. So an Afghan atheist, a Saudi Christian and a Canadian Jew all have to go through the same naturalisation process and risk not making it through? Maybe the brains to make sure they have an achievable goal? Nice dodge. I asked how the religious persuasion of a given number of refugees determines whether or not it's an achievable goal to take them in. Try answering that. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 14:10:45 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 9 12:43:08 2014. +1 |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 14:16:10 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 13:02:57 2014. Cheesecake. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri May 9 14:17:39 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 14:16:10 2014. ? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri May 9 14:18:50 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 08:43:19 2014. At one time I even owned the site.PROFF OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. By the way, I bookmarked this post for the next time you try to deny the filter that changes your name. |
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Re: “Palestinian” university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri May 9 14:21:06 2014, in response to Re: “Palestinian” university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 08:44:26 2014. Those aren't winners. *revokes confetti from Gaza*However, I was referring to SubChatters, as the context of my post indicated. If anybody here wants to see Israel destroyed, I have yet to meet them. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Fri May 9 14:21:10 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Fri May 9 13:22:04 2014. "Yes, two warring populations divided their homeland. However, in a separate decision at best tangentially related to that, one country decided to declare itself a home for one limited and arbitrary demographic at the expense of any other. Which you can't seem to wrap your head around."LOL. That's not what happened. "You keep missing the point, that after being rejected by other countries, it's a bit hypocritical to build your own country and start rejecting others. Unless, of course, you're willing to admit to a double standard, but that's also wrong." LOL. No it's not. |
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