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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu May 8 14:46:00 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 09:09:39 2014. Which is? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Gamera on Thu May 8 15:32:03 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 09:55:00 2014. Cause and effect is not your strong suit, is it?It isn't your strong suit at all... My scenario is a lot more plausible than yours - If the Arabs were to take over control of Israel do you really think that they would allow Jews to remain there? Just look at Lebanon as an example - Lebanese Christians have been repeatedly harassed (if not killed) to the point that many were forced to flee the country By the way, since you think Arab people are inherently incapable of democracy, So - name one Arab democracy then... We're waiting.... |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu May 8 15:55:19 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:22:34 2014. There is no use talking to you |
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Re: "Palestinian" university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu May 8 15:57:05 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Thu May 8 15:55:19 2014. When it's his turn to be mugged by reality, it's going to leave some really bad scars. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 8 16:04:28 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Thu May 8 15:55:19 2014. Yep. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:30:12 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:18:24 2014. Why can't the Palestinians build up infrastructure and their country themselves the way other nations do? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:32:06 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:18:39 2014. Actually, I'm quite close to the center, especially compared to you. If you want to make an argument that as a whole, the political center in this country has slowly shifted right over the years, I can be convinced to agree with that statement. But you are an extremist, in the same way that Olog is, just on the opposite side of the spectrum from him. I bet I can get many people here from all sides to agree with that assessment. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:32:27 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:18:54 2014. I read and understand everything you write. Do you? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:34:24 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:19:25 2014. I'm not aware of any other country allowing shipments into a neighboring territory that are going to be sent back to the first country in the form of missiles, but let me know if that is going on somewhere else in the world.Does it bother you that the borders between Israel and Lebanon and Syria are sealed shut and there is no way to cross them? Goods do pass from Israel to Gaza on a daily basis. Israel does not have soldiers or citizens in Gaza right now. If that isn't disengagement, what is? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:43:01 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:19:54 2014. Palestine is being choked by an Israeli blockadePalestine isn't a country. The West Bank is not being blockaded. Both Egypt and Israel restrict the flow of both goods and people to/from Gaza, but you seem to conveniently ignore the fact that Egypt's policies aren't all that different than Israel's in this regard. Furthermore, Egypt has TIGHTENED the restrictions on what gets into Gaza since the military overthrew Morsi's goverment, a fact that I have not seen you mention anywhere in this thread. Jordan and Egypt seem to be keeping well enough to themselves Jordan and Egypt have peace treaties with Israel, not to mention their own internal strifes. just Israel and Palestine trading terrorist attacks back and forth. When was the last time Israeli terrorists blew up a Palestinian bus? Or committed any other sort of violence against Palestinians aside from price tag attacks? I don't condone price tag attacks, but I do want to put what you're saying into proportion. Palestine exists in a limbo state where its inhabitants are not Israeli citizens because it's a foreign country but Israel can control it because it's not a country. Again, Palestine is not a country, it exists in limbo because its nominal leaders have yet to bring themselves to serious peace negotiations with Israel for 66 years. My point is that Israel can't have it both ways— they need to claim the territories or leave them alone. They are trying to "leave them alone" as you put it, the only problem is if they did that right now, they would likely create a vacuum in which a terror state set on destructing Israel would likely rise in its place. Meanwhile, people like you can't have it both ways, where you condemn Israel for both trying to build up infrastructure and for trying to give the Palestinians self-determination. For example, the Jerusalem Light Rail passes through Arab neighborhoods. Anti-Israel protestors sued French companies for helping to maintain the "Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem", but would have also been upset had the line bypassed the Arab neighborhoods entirely, denying the Palestinians the same access to public transportation that the Israelis have. I know more about what you are saying than you do. Once you realize that, we'll make significant progress. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:44:06 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 03:16:45 2014. Hamas is not going to agree to Israel building anything in Gaza. Period. Next idea... |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:44:41 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 05:41:55 2014. While your idealism is to be commended, the real world doesn't work that way. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:45:36 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:20:46 2014. No such thing happened. Stop crying foul because the realities on the ground in Israel today and it's history leading up until now prove your points to be wrong. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:46:23 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:20:54 2014. I know more than most people. How many Palestinians and Israelis have you ever met in your life? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:59:37 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 10:51:10 2014. Excellent post. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 17:06:00 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 15:16:39 2014. And where, exactly are these million Jewish refugees coming from? One doesn't typically predict in advance when crises that result in refugee problems will pop up, one has to be ready for them. You can probably find a million members of a demographic being oppressed in a particular area right now— how come Jews are so special they get an artificially enforced country on the off-chance they might be oppressed in the future? Jews have been oppressed for centuries, perhaps they wouldn't have been if they had somewhere safe to flee to. Because there are individual rights not subject to majority vote. Come on, you know this. A majority of Americans might well vote to make America a Christian nation if they could but I doubt you'd support that. The state can have an official religion even if people are free to practice their own religion. No one is suggesting that non-Jews be denied freedom of worship within Israel's borders. OTOH, the United States has a different stance with regard to an official religion, so while yes, some number of fundamentalists might like to change the status quo, it is unlikely to happen. I'm not aware of humanists being persecuted the way that Jews have been over the centuries, but feel free to prove me wrong... |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 17:06:33 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 16:04:07 2014. Another excellent post. Well done! |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 17:13:32 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 16:57:06 2014. I ask again, where are these refugees coming from? Because I don't see any countries that Jews are fleeing from en masse.Anti-antisemitism in Europe is on the rise, aliyah to Israel from several countries has increased significantly in recent years. Jews are hardly the only demographic to have been oppressed in the recent past— I'd rather be Jewish in America in the 50s than black How about Jewish in Germany in the 1930s and 1940s? Care to try that one? Prejudice lingers, obviously, but Jews today face a lot less risk of oppression and violence than plenty of other demographics that aren't having artificially controlled countries set aside for them. Right, and this is why I had to provide all sorts of information to any Jewish community I wished to visit while traveling and then be subject to passport inspections, body inspections, and questioning once I arrived at the synagogue in Italy (the main Rome synagogue was the target of a terror attack in the 1980s), France, Germany, Portugal, and Brazil, all in the past few years. Oppressed demographics are getting together and doing something about their situation all the time, yet it's only the Jews who have demanded an artificially controlled country for their exclusive use. When you can point to the Romani State on a map or show me which chunks of North America have been set aside as nation-states in the modern sense of the term which are reserved for the exclusive use of various First Nations, then the insistence on a dedicated Jewish State will seem less odd. 3-9 did this very well already. At least tens of thousands of Romani were killed in the same places by the same people for the same reasons. Meanwhile, America had segregation (and de facto semi-slavery) as a matter of course, plus the racially motivated imprisonment of anybody with Japanese descent. Worldwide, women were considered servants, domestic workers, and fetus incubators. If you came out as gay, being declared mentally ill was probably the best outcome that you could expect. I'm not condoning any of those things, but do you not see how your ideas just put the Jews back into the same category with all these other people? antisemitic genocide campaigns that are not currently happening might potentially happen again in spite of 70 years of gradual historical progress, and if they do then we can't trust any other countries to accept refugees because the relatively primitive people of the 1940s didn't. You're naive. Listen to what Abu Mazen says when he speaks in Arabic. Or Hamas. Or the mullahs in Iran. So then, you admit that Israel is a product of money and connections - effectively, a "might makes right" approach - and not because there is any genuine legal or moral need for a dedicated Jewish State™ after all? Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel about Israel and the Jews? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 17:14:02 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 18:50:28 2014. Israel isn't a theocracy, there is no official state religion. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 17:19:01 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 09:09:12 2014. Apples to oranges. In all of those cases, two demographics living in one geographical area didn't like each other, so they drew a line down the middle of the area to create one country for one demographic and a second for the other. Israel is a geographical area set aside for an entire demographic's worldwide population— a house party to which all of Demographic A is invited, not merely a line down the middle of the house to prevent disputes between its two residents.I guess this wouldn't interest you since it occurred prior to 1967, which seems to be your marker for history, but in 1947, the UN did just what you describe in the British Mandate area of Palestine. The Jews accepted the proposal. The Arabs did not and went to war, they wanted the whole region for themselves. I wrote what happened next somewhere else in this thread. How come that isn't of interest to you? You're nitpicking. "Exclusive use" is a deliberate exaggeration for dramatic effect. Muslims, Arabs, and Christians are allowed to live there, but their right to do so is curtailed so as to preserve a majority population of a decidedly unpopular religion. We're back to drama and exaggeration now? Remember the Passover thread, that didn't go well. The rights of Muslims and Christians to worship and live as they please is not curtailed in any way within Israel's borders. They do not have the right to murder innocent Israelis in the name of terrorism however. The "genuine need" for said Jewish state is the supposed oppression faced by Jews. This oppression isn't supposed, it was quite real and Israel was created as a result. The need isn't gone now that Israel exists, either. Maybe Israel should open its doors and welcome demographics facing enough oppression that they can't go build their own country. Israel is meant to be a state for Jews to flee to when they face persecution, it can't possibly hold the doors open for everyone and anyone who needs to flee something, at least not to settle permanently. An unfortunate reality but one that is necessary in today's world. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 17:20:26 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 13:59:57 2014. After all, if Israel is set up as the Jewish State™ and all other countries turn away Jews, then where do the Reform Jews go if Israel decided it's now Orthodox-only?Judaism doesn't work that way, moot point, next... |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 17:21:13 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 02:25:29 2014. And their arguments don't hold water because the primary reason they want right of return is to upset the demographics within Israel. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 17:22:13 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 09:09:39 2014. Perhaps you ought to start sharing what you ACTUALLY believe with us. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 17:22:40 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 13:08:01 2014. You don't understand why the blockade is there, do you? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 17:35:25 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:30:12 2014. You back home? How was your trip? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 17:38:46 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:44:41 2014. I dont commend it. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 17:41:25 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:46:23 2014. I have met Israelis and arabs. Never met a palestinian. I have met arabs who said they were palestinians. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 17:43:14 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 17:20:26 2014. Believe it or not iawtlp. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 17:44:44 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 17:14:02 2014. Really? If not, then it should be. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu May 8 17:45:46 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 17:43:14 2014. I'm following this thread to see who wins. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 17:50:23 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 17:19:01 2014. Is Isreal big enough to hold all the world's Jews? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 17:56:00 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by LuchAAA on Thu May 8 17:45:46 2014. Why? Are you the referee? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 17:56:24 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 17:20:26 2014. Believe it or not iawtlp. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 17:56:25 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:46:23 2014. I have met Israelis and arabs. Never met a palestinian. I have met arabs who said they were palestinians. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 17:56:26 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:44:41 2014. I dont commend it. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 17:56:27 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:30:12 2014. You back home? How was your trip? |
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Re: “Palestinian” university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu May 8 17:56:51 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by LuchAAA on Thu May 8 17:45:46 2014. Anyone who recognizes Israel's right to exist wins. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu May 8 18:02:23 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 17:56:00 2014. i do like to see who wins a thread.SMAZZA was an ok referee. Terrapin Station too. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 18:22:08 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 17:22:13 2014. Very well.1. Exclusive birthright citizenship is obsolete and needs to be abolished. 2. Theocracies are wrong and no state should be associated with a religion. (In fact, no one should be religious, but baby steps here.) 3. It is certainly not the business of a state to be artificially controlling its population demographics. 4. Poverty should be alleviated (and never deliberately caused). 5. No government should exercise any control over the affairs of a territory whose residents are not able to exercise any control over that government. That means no dictatorships and no colonialism. 6. If a war occurs, then any party to the war which is not an aggressor may suspend (5) for the duration of the war, and for a short time after its end in territories left without a legitimate government as a result of the war. Note that a war requires a declaration or act by one national entity against another, and thus at least two must be involved in its conduct. For the purpose of this explanation, a "national entity" is the government of a country or an entity that asserts a claim to a country or part of its territory such as rebellions, separatist groups, and so forth. It does not include entities that have no intention to govern such as terrorist groups who want to alter a nation's government but not become it. -6a. If a war occurs, it should be ended as expediently as possible with a minimum of loss on both sides. Tactics such as attacking civilians or impoverishing civilian populations are strictly prohibited. I don't see anything in there about Israel being at fault for the problems in the Middle East or Hamas not being a bunch of terrorist thugs. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 18:27:10 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by LuchAAA on Thu May 8 18:02:23 2014. Whats the upsession over Smaz? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 8 18:27:54 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:44:06 2014. Let's not forget the infrastructure they destroyed that Israel left when they withdrew. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 8 18:28:29 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu May 8 17:56:26 2014. Me, neither. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 18:50:37 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:32:27 2014. Given that you claimed I support Hamas, you've obviously made a grave error in comprehension. Please go back and try again. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 18:56:21 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:34:24 2014. I'm not aware of any other country allowing shipments into a neighboring territory that are going to be sent back to the first country in the form of missiles...Right, because all goods passing into Gaza are missile parts. It's not a real territory that people live in, it's just one big weapon factory. Does it bother you that the borders between Israel and Lebanon and Syria are sealed shut and there is no way to cross them? Yes. Syria not so much due to the civil war (who'd want to cross that border?) but your insistence that I'm somehow singling out Israel for special treatment is getting on my nerves. Although I'm a little amused by the fact that you keep comparing Israel to dictatorships, theocracies, and failed states. I think you're letting slip a little more than you intend. Israel does not have soldiers or citizens in Gaza right now. If that isn't disengagement, what is? Yeah, and America doesn't have soldiers in Iraq. If you control a territory's affairs, you're not "disengaged" from it. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 18:58:23 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:30:12 2014. Didn't you tell me that Palestine wasn't a nation?I'd make some remark about countries like Mali and Pakistan having a hard time building up infrastructure, but the simple fact is that your comment is completely unrelated to the matters at hand. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 19:00:47 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:32:06 2014. I can't help but notice you failed to answer the questions I asked, namely:If Obama is liberal, then how come we don't have single payer health care? You reasserted that you're close to center and I'm extreme, but that assertion is meaningless in light of my completely unchallenged argument that you don't have the foggiest idea where the center actually is. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 19:18:32 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:43:01 2014. Palestine isn't a country.You just said it was. Both Egypt and blah blah blah blah blah See there you go again with the "but other countries do it too!" Genug! I'm sick of hearing it! Either point to a murderer who was acquitted on the grounds that other people commit murder too or knock it the fuck off. Jordan and Egypt have peace treaties with Israel, not to mention their own internal strifes. Which confirms my previous point that they are irrelevant to the current political calculations. When was the last time Israeli terrorists blew up a Palestinian bus? Or committed any other sort of violence against Palestinians aside from price tag attacks? What, you need a list of all of the "targeted killings" that Israel has done without oversight? Mosques hit by Israeli missiles? As if the blockade wasn't enough. Again, Palestine is not a country, it exists in limbo because its nominal leaders have yet to bring themselves to serious peace negotiations with Israel for 66 years. The second part of your sentence is unrelated to the first. Even if they declared war on Israel, it wouldn't make Palestine not a country. Even if they did begin serious peace negotiations, it wouldn't change their state of limbo except to the extent that Israel might offer them greater independence. Now, I can understand if you're trying to say Palestine is not a country because Israel exerts control over it on a scale comparable to its "nominal leaders" since that's sort of what I've been commenting on. They are trying to "leave them alone" as you put it, the only problem is if they did that right now, they would likely create a vacuum in which a terror state set on destructing Israel would likely rise in its place. "Terror state?" Seriously? Meanwhile, people like you can't have it both ways, where you condemn Israel for both trying to build up infrastructure and for trying to give the Palestinians self-determination. Sigh. What a senseless waste of straw and cloth. What did that scarecrow do to you? Anti-Israel protestors sued French companies for helping to maintain the "Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem", but would have also been upset had the line bypassed the Arab neighborhoods entirely, denying the Palestinians the same access to public transportation that the Israelis have. Ah, so according to you, I'm both an "anti-Israel protestor" who is suing a French company and a completely hypothetical person you just made up who, if he existed, would complain about denying transportation access. How many straw men do you plan to shred before this is over? I know more about what you are saying than you do. Considering your previous statement, I tend to doubt that. You can't even figure out what I'm saying. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 19:22:30 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:44:06 2014. OK, then give Israeli citizenship to Palestinians. Offer assistance to those who want to get out of Gaza. If they want infrastructure, they can move to Israel which has it. If they stay in Palestine to spite Israel, it's their own problem. Since Israel is no longer denying anything to anyone, the blockade becomes less indefensible.The point is, there are a lot of ideas and options that don't involve impoverishing people. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 19:25:01 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:44:41 2014. It has and does.If you want to argue that this approach won't work with regard to Israel/Palestine due to underlying issues, that position would be less ridiculous. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 19:27:50 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 8 16:45:36 2014. Did you not see the red highlighting?I said Israel's actions are causing economic suffering in Palestine. You made an argument against the position that Israel's actions are the sole cause of economic suffering in Palestine, and then tried to conflate that with my position. That's the definition of a straw man argument. |
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