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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Mar 9 23:28:04 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Easy on Sun Mar 9 23:05:50 2008. I think it's one of those quotes attributed to many people. Disraeli is another such figure. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Mar 9 23:30:26 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 9 23:27:06 2008. Credit where credit is due, Terrapin - Chris has taken it a ton more seriously! |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by JohnL on Sun Mar 9 23:43:59 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 9 22:35:25 2008. True. However Brian has a point that the AirTrain could be even more successful under a different pricing policy (however it is interpreted!)And, yes, there are anomalies in the PA’s pricing for airport access—the most glaring being that there is no separate charge for driving onto the airport and using the airport roads. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Mar 10 00:47:07 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by JohnL on Sun Mar 9 23:43:59 2008. It would be instructive to construct a revenue/fare curve for AirTrain, as well as to examine the elasticity of demand. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 09:23:25 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by JohnL on Sun Mar 9 23:43:59 2008. However Brian has a point that the AirTrain could be even more successful under a different pricing policy (however it is interpreted!)So would any transit system if it was "free". the most glaring being that there is no separate charge for driving onto the airport and using the airport roads. It's not an anormality at all. Not that it matters on this airport, but most airports don't charge for road access into the airport, unless the only roads leading to it happen to be toll expressways (as I think is the case at Dallas, but not sure). And besides, parking at the airport went down almost 20% since Airtrain was started , at least by 1996 anywyay we don't have the current year's stats. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 09:24:14 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 09:23:25 2008. at least by 1996 anywyay we don't have the current year's statsUgh, I meant 2006. It's early yet, and I have "jetlag" from the new time, heh. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 09:40:28 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 09:23:25 2008. So would any transit system if it was "free".Other transit systems can justify a fare. AirTrain can not. It's not an anormality at all. Yes it is. Not that it matters on this airport, but most airports don't charge for road access into the airport, unless the only roads leading to it happen to be toll expressways (as I think is the case at Dallas, but not sure). You can't use that argument, since no airports charge for their on-property circulator. So if you say it's ok not to charge for driving onto the airport, then you also have to say it's ok not to charge people to ride HB airtrain. But you won't say it, because you are being hypocritical and because you favor cars over mass transit. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Mar 10 09:48:46 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 09:40:28 2008. ...because you favor cars over mass transit.We all know he hates trains. Olog said so. your pal, Fred |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 09:59:44 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 09:40:28 2008. Other transit systems can justify a fare. AirTrain can not.That is your opinion. So if you say it's ok not to charge for driving onto the airport, then you also have to say it's ok not to charge people to ride HB airtrain. I said "not that it matters" in that phrase. I said multiple times that it makes no diffrerence what one airport does. All of them have different sets of circumstances. But you won't say it, because you are being hypocritical and because you favor cars over mass transit. Huh? Every single time I have used JFK (except once) since AirTrain has been at JFK, I have used AIRTRAIN to get to my flight. Every time except ONCE, and that's one time I was planning to take AirTrain, but my friend offered to drop me off as he had to go that way anyway. (LaGuardia is a different case, but they don't have AirTrain so it's irrelevant, and I use Kennedy more anyway). So I don't know where you said I "favor" cars instead of mass transit. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 10:00:03 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 9 11:56:18 2008. What RIPTAHope fails to see with his percentage chart and graph for Howard Beach is that with Jamaica taking 226,769 passengers into the airport, that is a MAJOR percentage that didn't exist before, so of COURSE Howard Beach's percentage will be lower than it once was before Jamaica was there. You can't look at the percentages without considering the fact that Jamaica added a major slice of pie to the mix. People that say "Jamaica is irrelevant" are completely wrong, it MAJORLY skews the percentages, and passenger counts. And even through all that, Howard Beach STILL holds as many passengers as it once did, and PARKING went WAY down.Jamaica is irrelevant, because we're only looking at the effect of the $5 fare on ridership at Howard Beach. We don't have sufficient O-D data to determine if riders switched to Jamaica, buses, taxis, or LaGuardia. Moreover, we don't know how many riders who switched to Jamaica wouldn't have if Howard Beach were free. Why pay $7 for the old crappy way when the new, premium service is the same $7? (It's all marketing, of course; I think it was the Wall Street Journal that discovered the A to Howard Beach is still faster). If the Howard Beach connection remained free, the ultra-expensive Jamaica branch could have been an embarrassment. The core problem remains: charging transit users to access the airport and not charging non-transit users is poor transportation policy. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:00:45 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Fred G on Mon Mar 10 09:48:46 2008. Hahahahaha! Yup, I just hate trains..... |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by kp5308 on Mon Mar 10 10:03:35 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Fred G on Mon Mar 10 09:48:46 2008. Is this thread setting a record of some sort? :o) |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 10:08:09 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 09:59:44 2008. That is your opinion.Based on fact. You have no facts with which to base your opinion. I said "not that it matters" in that phrase. I said multiple times that it makes no diffrerence what one airport does. All of them have different sets of circumstances. JFK has no different circumstances that I am aware of. Huh? Every single time I have used JFK (except once) since AirTrain has been at JFK, I have used AIRTRAIN to get to my flight. Every time except ONCE, and that's one time I was planning to take AirTrain, but my friend offered to drop me off as he had to go that way anyway. (LaGuardia is a different case, but they don't have AirTrain so it's irrelevant, and I use Kennedy more anyway). So I don't know where you said I "favor" cars instead of mass transit. You used JAMAICA AIRTRAIN all those times (except once, IIRC). We're talking about HB AirTrain. Anyhow, you favor cars because you see nothing wrong with allowing them to access the airport for free, and for their passengers to ride AirTrain from the parking lot for free, yet you see no reason to drop the fare for the free circulator for people coming from mass transit. You see no reason to end the blatant inequity. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 10:08:55 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 10:00:03 2008. Thank you. Excellent post. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:11:11 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 10:00:03 2008. Jamaica is irrelevant, because we're only looking at the effect of the $5 fare on ridership at Howard Beach.Jamaica is NOT irrelevant. I already stated why you can't use your "percentage" chart because of Jamaica. Jamaica, just by being added skews the statistics, and takes away percentages....major percentages....so OF COURSE, it will show Howard Beach holding a lesser percentage than Howard Beach had before airTrain. Again, remember the slice of pie analogy. Adding a whole extra slice will make all the percentages for everything else prior go down, just by being added. And yes, we don't know how many people went to Jamaica instead of Howard Beach, but we know they DID. You can't say "Hey look at how much Howard Beach went down after AirTrain started" for the SAME reason, as you don't know how many people left Howard Beach for Jamaica once it was another alternative with a similar timed train there. So don't tell me that "Jamaica is irrelevant" when it's taking people away from Howard Beach, but then try and flip it around and use the same stats to say "Hey, look how much HB decreased after AirTrain" knowing that Jamaica cannibalized some of HB's riders. Jamaica is VERY relevant. It carries 2 to 3 times the amount of people that Howard Beach does, and it's a MAJOR source of percentage of people coming in using mass transit. Because of Jamaica taking such a large percentage out of the pie, you can't use your percentage stats to say, "Look how much the percentage dropped at Howard Beach". (It's all marketing, of course; I think it was the Wall Street Journal that discovered the A to Howard Beach is still faster). There are MANY people that would not even use the connection if not for the fact that the train is there. People are WAY less likely to use mass transit if a bus is involved than if a train is involved, and HB's time is only about 1.5 minutes less than the Jamaica leg. And yes, that is probably because of the speed of Jamaica, and also because HB requires an extra stop, however, for anyone looking at the the schedule, BOTH show about 10 minutes. The one or two minutes will not make someone use Howard Beach instead of Jamaica if the E is more convenient for them, as the airtrains times are about the same (and the E is a lot faster for many people). That option didn't even exist in the Holy HB free shuttle bus days. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Mar 10 10:16:01 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by kp5308 on Mon Mar 10 10:03:35 2008. Haha, I'm sure it has, beating 76th Street even.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:21:06 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 10:08:09 2008. Based on fact. You have no facts with which to base your opinion.The actual STATS are my factual information. It shows clearly that the fare has not been a hinderance on AirTrain, and certainly not to the effect your OPINION claims. Parking at the airport is almost 20% less even though there has been an increase in flights. Howard Beach's stats show similar to more than it once had, and Jamaica shows 2-3 times that of Howard Beach. JFK has no different circumstances that I am aware of. Every airport has different circumstances in location. Some have differnt rail access, some have NO rail access. Different roads, location to the airport's city, transportation. Access points. EVERYTHING is different at each airport. No two are exactly alike. You used JAMAICA AIRTRAIN all those times (except once, IIRC). We're talking about HB AirTrain. Correct. You said I favor road access. I showed you that is a completely FALSE statement. And I used to live within 3 stations of Broadway Junction, and used the airport often back then too. I rarely used the Holy Howard Beach connection back then as I didn't trust it. I even used that awful Q10 more than HB. Most of the time back then I used private Airport car shuttle service to get to Kennedy back then. I would have had the choice of TWO AirTrains at Broadway Junction, and would certainly use either of them if I still lived in that location. It would even have been more convenient than the private car shuttle service (at the mercy of traffic conditions). |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:25:31 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 10:08:09 2008. Anyhow, you favor cars because you see nothing wrong with allowing them to access the airport for free, and for their passengers to ride AirTrain from the parking lot for free, yet you see no reason to drop the fare for the free circulator for people coming from mass transit. You see no reason to end the blatant inequity. 307,000 cars parked at ALL the airport lots at JFK in Nov 2006. 116,000 people used HB AirTrain. About 2.5 times more cars parked at the ENTIRE airport than. That's "only" 2.5 times (and it used to be a much higher spread). Only a portion of those 307,000 cars parked in the Long Term parking lot, as there are MANY lots on the grounds. The Howard Beach Long Term Lot access is minimal nex to those Long term people that used the Lefferts lot. Me thinks you assumptions on the long term parking lot people vs the HB AirTrain people is also HIGLY exagerated just like all your other opinions in this thread. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:26:42 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:25:31 2008. The Howard Beach Long Term Lot access is minimal nex to those Long term people that used the Lefferts lot.To be clear, I mean the two stations that serve the lot. I didn't mean to imply there are seperate lots. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:27:09 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 10:08:55 2008. No it's flawed, like I explained. |
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Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 10:27:26 2008, in response to Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Mar 9 11:32:46 2008. The number of passengers has climbed enough so that AirTraiun's absolute usage has climbed with it. Even if AirTrain's % of arriving airline passengers remains below 4%, its impact on car traffic to the airport has been very tangible.I don't have access to traffic counts for the airport's internal roadways. You're welcome to produce them. Who picked 4% as a meaningful threshold? You? We should speak hypothetically, by the way, because your numbers are wrong. You cite 3.68% in 2002; AirTrain did not begin operating until 2003. Given that, I wouldn't trust any of your numbers. I picked 4% because it is near the low end of pre-AirTrain usage (note I said "between 3.5% and 6.5% per month) and the high end of AirTrain usage. The only month between opening and the end of 2007 that broke 4% is September, 2004. It isn't an indicator of anything except relative performance. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:31:22 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Fred G on Mon Mar 10 10:16:01 2008. Hey, and again....how many threads can boast this many posts without a flame war involved! Seriously, it may not seem like it, but I respect the two major people "on the other side of the AirTrain fence" in this thread very much....even if they are thick headed on this topic! :)I just can't agree with them on this topic. |
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Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:39:01 2008, in response to Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 10:27:26 2008. I picked 4% because it is near the low end of pre-AirTrain usage (note I said "between 3.5% and 6.5% per month) and the high end of AirTrain usage. The only month between opening and the end of 2007 that broke 4% is September, 2004. It isn't an indicator of anything except relative performance.Dude, Howard Beach will never break it's old % as long as Jamaica is there. Jamaica takes 2 times the amount of people that Howard Beach does. That's an access point that DIDN'T exist in your pre-Airtrain stats for Howard Beach. That's a MAJOR percentage of transit users. Again, once you add a new slice into a pie, that new slice takes away percentage numbers from the other slices, making them all go down just because it's there. Again - four slices at 25% automatically becomes 5 slices at 20% just by something being added that didn't exist prior. And then that is not even considering the fact that that new slice is a major player in the whole thing. Jamaica's stats now are 2 times that of Howard beach. That's a MAJOR percentage you are not considering in your % stats. So YES, HB stats WILL be lower just for the simple fact that Jamaica was added, much less such a much used addition. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 10:41:50 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:31:22 2008. Hey, and again....how many threads can boast this many posts without a flame war involved! Seriously, it may not seem like it, but I respect the two major people "on the other side of the AirTrain fence" in this thread very much....even if they are thick headed on this topic! :)I just can't agree with them on this topic. Of course it seems like it. Debate isn't flame war. Heck, I even like some of the Republicans on this board ;). |
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Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 10:43:33 2008, in response to Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:39:01 2008. Dude, Howard Beach will never break it's old % as long as Jamaica is there.That's the point. The fare at Howard Beach makes Jamaica seem more attractive to some, when in reality, Howard Beach would probably be more convenient. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:48:10 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 10:41:50 2008. Yeah, it's all good....believe me, I wouldn't give your responses time of day if I didn't respect you two guys. |
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Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:53:57 2008, in response to Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 10:43:33 2008. I can agree with that, however, the basis is that your stats show Howard Beach that much lower PERCENTAGE wise because there IS another access point that didn't exist prior. That means the % stats don't show the true picture. The pie got bigger when Jamaica was added, and that skews all the percentages, regardless of how many people left HB for Jamaica. You have a WHOLE new pool of people coming in from the LIRR and buses at Jamaica, in addition to the E/J that weren't even included in the old % stats. That is a MAJOR influx of people adding percentage to the old pie that just didn't exist pree AirTrain. That skews the old HB stats. |
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Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 11:01:38 2008, in response to Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:53:57 2008. You have a WHOLE new pool of people coming in from the LIRR and buses at Jamaica, in addition to the E/J that weren't even included in the old % stats. That is a MAJOR influx of people adding percentage to the old pie that just didn't exist pree AirTrain.Which minimizes the effect of Jamaica on Howard Beach. I never argued that AirTrain Jamaica was a bad idea; I think it's excellent that the airport is now transit-acessible from points north and east. None of those people would have been able to use the A to Howard Beach. But we're not talking about them; we're talking about Howard Beach. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 11:02:54 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:48:10 2008. Yeah, it's all good....believe me, I wouldn't give your responses time of day if I didn't respect you two guys.Same here. We'll have to tour some theaters next time I'm in New York. I'll try not to mention AirTrain ;). |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 11:08:37 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 11:02:54 2008. I'll try not to mention AirTrainGood move. :) |
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Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 11:10:57 2008, in response to Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 11:01:38 2008. Ugh, I know we are talking about Howard Beach, but why can't you understand that if you use the percentage stats, that they won't show the true picture of Howard Beach today. Even if NO people left HB for Jamaica (which is unlikely) HB stats would STILL be lower after AirTrain "percentage-wise" because of Jamaica just being added, even if it was just for LIRR and Jamaica bus access. |
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Re: Foamer fantasies was Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Mar 10 11:18:20 2008, in response to Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 10:43:33 2008. "The fare at Howard Beach makes Jamaica seem more attractive to some, when in reality, Howard Beach would probably be more convenient."Reality check time: The only place that makes any sense is for people living along the J subway who might transfer at East New York to the A. If Air Train were $2 from HB, how many people would change trains at East New York to take advantage of that? Answer: Almost no one except foamers who don't have plane tickets, because East New York isn't ADA compliant. Airport employees don't pay $5 and everyone with a plane ticket couldn't care less. Maybe a family of eight traveling together would care. Agreed that foamers care. But I don't expect the Port Authority to change the fare for foamers. |
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Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 11:42:20 2008, in response to Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 11:10:57 2008. Even if NO people left HB for Jamaica (which is unlikely) HB stats would STILL be lower after AirTrain "percentage-wise" because of Jamaica just being added, even if it was just for LIRR and Jamaica bus access.If some people left Howard Beach for Jamaica, the two stations' service areas overlap. If NO ONE left Howard Beach for Jamaica, the two stations have entirely distinct service areas, and the drop in traffic at Howard Beach is that much more dramatic. |
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Re: Foamer fantasies was Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 11:58:48 2008, in response to Re: Foamer fantasies was Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Mar 10 11:18:20 2008. Reality check time: The only place that makes any sense is for people living along the J subway who might transfer at East New York to the A. If Air Train were $2 from HB, how many people would change trains at East New York to take advantage of that?Answer: Almost no one except foamers who don't have plane tickets, because East New York isn't ADA compliant. I was thinking more of people in Manhattan with access to either the A or the E, but you raise another valid scenario. The A from Broadway Junction to Howard Beach is faster than the J to Jamaica. If I'm able-bodied and traveling lightly, ADA compliance isn't an issue. If I have so much luggage that I need an elevator, I would rather allow the extra time and not transfer. |
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Re: Foamer fantasies was Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 12:33:52 2008, in response to Re: Foamer fantasies was Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 11:58:48 2008. I was thinking more of people in Manhattan with access to either the A or the E, but you raise another valid scenario.The J is not really a player in the scheme of things. I also everytime I mentioned it meant the A vs the E. The J is about 25-30 minutes from East New York to Jamaica. The A is about 16-21 minutes from East New York to Howard Beach, so the A is clearly faster. The J is only more convenient if you happen to be on it already, by the time you transfer, walk downstairs, then waited for the A train, you lost the 10 minute advantage the A has over the J anyway, so I couldn't see people getting off the J to take the A instead, however, if you are coming on the L, I can see an advantage in going down to the A instead of transferring to the J. But that's neither here nor there, as I was also thinking "Manhattan" where the E has slight advantage over the A. But of course that depends upon where you are for that too. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 12:35:54 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:21:06 2008. The actual STATS are my factual information. It shows clearly that the fare has not been a hinderance on AirTrain, and certainly not to the effect your OPINION claims. Parking at the airport is almost 20% less even though there has been an increase in flights. Howard Beach's stats show similar to more than it once had, and Jamaica shows 2-3 times that of Howard Beach.No, I'm talking about facts to justify a fare at HB. Just because "people will pay it" is not a justification. Every airport has different circumstances in location. Some have differnt rail access, some have NO rail access. Different roads, location to the airport's city, transportation. Access points. EVERYTHING is different at each airport. No two are exactly alike. I know. Like I said, JFK has no different circumstances that justify the inequity at HB. Correct. You said I favor road access. Yes, because if you didn't favor car access, you'd recognize and strive to solve the inequity at HB. Instead, you dismiss it, meaning that you favor cars. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 12:37:53 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:25:31 2008. It doesn't matter how many. There is an inequity. It is very clear. And you don't care about it. Therefore you favor car access over transit access, since cars get the much better deal. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 12:38:13 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 10:27:09 2008. Not flawed at all. |
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Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 12:41:29 2008, in response to Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 11:42:20 2008. If NO ONE left Howard Beach for Jamaica, the two stations have entirely distinct service areas, and the drop in traffic at Howard Beach is that much more dramatic.Agreed. However, you are still not considering the fact that Jamaica added to the pie JUST by being added. I have to keep these even numbers for illustrative purposes, but it works the same way even if the numbers are different as they of course are. And of course, I am just using 25% and 4 ways in as a base as it keeps it simple: Pre-Airtrain: Whole pie: 100% - 4 slices -Howard Beach: 25% come in -Ground transportation: 25% come in -Airport Coach: 25% -Taxi: 25% Post Airtrain, the next day, right away Jamaica skews that as it's a 5th item thrown in: Whole pie: 100% - 5 slices -Jamaica: 20% -Howard Beach 20% -Ground - 20% -Airport Coach - 20% -Taxi: 20% Just by adding Jamaica, and not even cannibalizing passengers from other points, every percentage dropped. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 12:46:10 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 12:38:13 2008. If using "%" as a basis, yes it is flawed as Jamaica added to the pie, making the pie bigger, so percentages for all the things that were available prior to Jamaica will have dropped once Jamaica is added. Jamaica draws % from all those other items, because it added it's new customers, even before taking away other access points customes. Just by being there it dropped the percentage of "Howard Beach" and all the other access points, even if not one person left Howard Beach the next day after Jamaica came around. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 12:47:36 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 12:37:53 2008. There is no inequity. That is where we disagree. And no, I don't favor car access over transit. Now you sound like Olag.... "You just hate trains". |
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Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 12:50:56 2008, in response to Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 12:41:29 2008. No. If Jamaica only attracted people away from parking, airport coach, and taxi, then the % at HB would have not dropped. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 12:53:13 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 12:46:10 2008. No. Pre-AirTrain, everyone was being counted or estimated, right? And post-AirTrain, every was being counted or estimated, right? So if no one shifted away from HB post-AirTrain, then HB's % would remain the same. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 12:55:55 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 12:47:36 2008. Yes, there is an inequity. Some people pay and some people don't. All for the same service. That is an inequity. It is very clear. If you don't care about the inequity, it means you favor cars, as they have the good part of the inequity. And since you never (except once) use HB AirTrain, and never park in the long term lot, it makes sense that you couldn't care less that they have this inequity there. It doesn't affect you. Therefore it doesn't matter to you. That's why there are transportation planners in this world. They are able to understand the issues that the average person either doesn't see or doesn't understand. |
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Re: Foamer fantasies was Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Mar 10 12:56:28 2008, in response to Re: Foamer fantasies was Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 11:58:48 2008. OK, in which case the $5 still wouldn't matter. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Mon Mar 10 12:58:21 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 12:53:13 2008. airtRAIN.....SLOWY i TURN STEP BY STEP.....INCH BY INC |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 13:09:07 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 12:53:13 2008. No, because you didn't have another accesspoint eating up %. And you have LIRR people added too. HB% would NOT remain the same, as % is based on the total pie. The total pie now has an extra slice, a slice which is dragging out percentage whereas before it wasn't even there. % is based on the TOTAL pie, and slices out of that pie. More slices mean everything is lower, as each slice is automatically smaller. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Mar 10 13:12:37 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 13:09:07 2008. No, because you didn't have another accesspoint eating up %.In your scenario, where no one switches from Howard Beach to Jamaica, the only way Jamaica eats up % from Howard Beach is if it encourages more people to fly. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 13:12:47 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 13:09:07 2008. Who wasn't being counted pre-airtrain? |
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Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 10 13:13:02 2008, in response to Re: Bad data; Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 10 12:50:56 2008. No. If Jamaica only attracted people away from parking, airport coach, and taxi, then the % at HB would have not dropped.NO, you are wrong. The NUMBER OF PEOPLE would not have dropped at HB, but the PERCENTAGE of people using Howard Beach would have dropped just by adding Jamaica. And We all know that "some" amount of people did leave HB for Jamaica (neither of us know how many). We also know that now Jamaica is drawing from the LIRR also, and all the buses that connect there or near there, as well as the subway there. |
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