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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 20 12:41:01 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 20 12:36:29 2008. And it's not an "immaginary line".Yes it is. Borders are not real lines. They are not insurmountable obstacles. There's no reason it would be difficult to cross it would paying a toll. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 20 12:42:37 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 20 12:41:01 2008. We went through this, I said what I had to say, I am not changing my mind, and it's not an "insurmountable obstacle". |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 20 13:03:12 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 20 12:42:37 2008. it's not an "insurmountable obstacle"I know. That's what I said. Usually you charge a toll to cross a normally insurmountable obstacle, like a river or mountain. That's not the case here. A bridge was built over an imaginary line (a border) and a toll charged for the crossing of it. Remember, I'm not talking about the intent here, I'm talking about the actuality of it. We went through this, I said what I had to say, I am not changing my mind But you think it's ok to raise the parking rates and charge people walking to the Lefferts station (and I assume also charge people getting off the bus at the Lefferts station) than to just simply drop the pedestrian toll at HB. I don't understand why you'd make it all worse, and totally more convoluted, than just simply making it a ton better by dropping the pedestrian toll. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 20 14:29:14 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 20 13:03:12 2008. Because there is no "pedestrian toll", but we've been through this. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Feb 20 14:30:14 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 20 14:29:14 2008. This has been a long ping-pong match |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 20 14:43:20 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 20 14:29:14 2008. You can call it whatever you want. But the question still stands! |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sun Feb 24 09:28:32 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 11:28:45 2008. Interesting.Do us all a favor. Go to HB and take pics what you posted about HB. That should reinforce your claim that the $5.00 fare for subway passengers is unfair. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 11:12:37 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sun Feb 24 09:28:32 2008. What are you rambling about, Dan? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sun Feb 24 12:56:46 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 11:12:37 2008. You are really getting lost. Maybe you need to see your doctor.It was a suggestion so you can reinforce your claim that the $5.00 charge is unfair, but since you have a bug up your butt about me, forget it. REQUIRED SUBCHAT DISCLAIMER: I could be wrong. Your mileage may vary, slippery when wet, opinions expressed herein are not necessarily the accepted opinions of the Twerp which may or may not constitute an unwarranted personal attack, void where prohibited in sectors R and N ... gravity sold separately. Opinions of the poster are provided on an "as-is basis" and any reproduction of these thoughts are prohibited without the express written consent of Major League Baseball and the makers of Ritalin. Denial of permission to enter the NYC subway system could result as a side-effect of this conversation, be governed accordingly. In the event of argument or flatulence, please consult your physician. That is all. :) |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 24 13:10:51 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sun Feb 24 12:56:46 2008. How the hell is he going to reinforce his claim by taking photos? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 13:17:04 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sun Feb 24 12:56:46 2008. Huh? The $5 pedestrian toll is just that, a pedestrian toll, not a fare. And there is no justification for a pedestrian toll. Do you understand? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 14:27:44 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 13:17:04 2008. But it's a fare fo the use of AirTrain, not a "pedestrian toll". |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 16:41:55 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 14:27:44 2008. no, it' a fare to get onto the grounds. if it was a fare to use airtrain, everyone who was already on the grounds at that station, and the station just right down the line, would have to pay as well. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 16:52:41 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 16:41:55 2008. No, there is no "toll" to enter the airport. It's a fare to use AirTrain from Howard Beach NYCT station. If there was a "toll" to enter the airport, then there would be a gate at Lefferts Ave, or any other entrance to the airport. There are a few peole that "luck out" if they happen to perhaps get dropped off at Lefferts, or something. Those can use the parking lot station and ride for free. Lucky for them. The other people paid for parking, and can use AirTrain from the parking lot. For all others, they must pay to use the Howard Beach branch. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 17:06:56 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 16:52:41 2008. You're finally getting it! Yes, people coming from NYCT subway are being unfairly panelized! It is terrible transportation policy! This is excellent Chris!And why should they pay to use it when it is an on the property free circulator? No other airport in the country that I know of charges for its on the property free circulator. And don't forget all the people on the NYCT bus lines that stop at any of the non-terminal airtrain stations. they get to ride for free, while their brethren coming from NYCT subway at HB have to pay. Makes no sense! Very bad transportation policy! |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 19:21:06 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 17:06:56 2008. Yes, people coming from NYCT subway are being unfairly panelized!No they aren't, they are paying to ride the AirTrain service from the HB station. Very bad transportation policy! Not really. while their brethren coming from NYCT subway at HB have to pay. And why should the NYCT subway peaope using AirTrain from Sutpin Blvd have to pay? It would be uneven shifting. As we know, currently, people have a nice choice along the 8th Ave line, whereas if A people didn't have to pay, it wouldn't be fair to the E (and J) people. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 19:36:42 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 19:21:06 2008. No they aren't, they are paying to ride the AirTrain service from the HB station.Yes they are. AirTrain from HB is the on-property free circulator. There is no reason they should have to pay for it. No one else has to pay for it, at JFK, or in the rest of the country. Not really. Yes it is! It is favoring all other modes of transit to the airport (including cars and taxis and buses) over one of the best ways to get there, the (A). And why should the NYCT subway peaope using AirTrain from Sutpin Blvd have to pay? I already explained this. The Jamaica branch is a rapid transit line that brings you from a downtown area (Jamaica) all the way to and onto Airport property. There's nothing wrong with charging for riding that. And EVERYONE who rides it has to pay! whereas if A people didn't have to pay, it wouldn't be fair to the E (and J) people. That's not true at all. E/J people would be fairly paying for the service of being brought to and onto airport property. A passengers receive no such service, and should not be charged for it. They are taking the same free circulator that everyone else is. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 24 20:31:55 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 18 00:04:40 2008. But the AirTrain has no fare within the airport! How would they be beating the fare if this charge were eliminated? There would be no fare to beat. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 20:36:07 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 18 00:04:40 2008. As spider-Pig just wrote, there's no fare to beat. The Howard Beach branch is an on-property free circulator. There is never a charge for a such a service in the USA that I know of. There is no precedent for it. However PANYNJ decided t ocharge for it, which is stupid, wrong, and bad transportation policy. So while the intent is for it to be an AirTrain fare, the actuality is that it is a pedestrian toll to get onto airport properrty where one can then access the free airport circulator (the Howard Beach branch of AirTrain). |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 21:51:46 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 24 20:31:55 2008. Why should the A train people get a free ride for AirTrain, yet the E and J people would have to pay? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 21:52:54 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 20:36:07 2008. Somehow I have heard this record before. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 21:54:57 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 19:36:42 2008. SOmehow I have heard this broken record before.I am not changing my postion/opinion on this. I don't know how this stupid thread got revived. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 21:55:01 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 21:51:46 2008. Why should the A train people get a free ride for AirTrain, yet the E and J people would have to pay?It has to do with the service they are receiving. Read below. Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question (576107) |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 21:55:56 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 21:55:01 2008. I have read this last week. I'm not reading it again. Someone revived this thread from the grave. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 21:56:02 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 21:54:57 2008. I would appreciate if you could respond. Specifically, respond to why A train riders should have to pay to ride the free on-property circulator that no one else in the country has to pay to ride. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 21:56:25 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 21:55:56 2008. No, you're avoiding the issue. You asked the question. Please respond. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 21:59:19 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 21:56:25 2008. I am not avoiding the issue. We discussed this at length last week in this very thread. I have responded to what you said more times than I care to count last week already. Somehow this thread got revived, but nothing has changed since anything you or I or anyone else said in this thread last week already. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 22:01:02 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 21:56:02 2008. Click "view flat", this has been discussed last week in this same exact thread. I have responded to this broken record at nauseum last week already. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 24 22:12:46 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 24 20:31:55 2008. How would they be beating the fare if this charge were eliminated? There would be no fare to beat.But there IS a fare. Isn't that what all of the fuss is about? You're confusing how things are with what how you think things ought to be. If you want to play that game, then you have to persuasively answer to the PA and the local community why there should be no Airtrain fare for anyone boarding at Howard Beach. I don't think that either you or Terrapin Station have done that yet. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 24 22:17:23 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 20:36:07 2008. As spider-Pig just wrote, there's no fare to beat.Then why are we having this conversation? There's no fare, so how are these pedestrians being charged? Are they voluntarily donating money from Metrocards as if there were a fare as though they were boarding at Jamaica? So while the intent is for it to be an AirTrain fare... So there IS a fare! |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 22:18:36 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 24 22:12:46 2008. If you want to play that game, then you have to persuasively answer to the PA and the local community why there should be no Airtrain fare for anyone boarding at Howard Beach. I don't think that either you or Terrapin Station have done that yet.I think we have. The HB branch is a free on-property circulator, yet subway transferees (and only subway transferees) are being charged to ride it. That makes no sense, is wrong, and is bad transportation policy. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 22:19:22 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 24 22:17:23 2008. It's not a fare, since not everyone has to pay it. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 24 22:24:14 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 22:18:36 2008. The HB branch is a free on-property circulator, yet subway transferees (and only subway transferees) are being charged to ride it.Who isn't being charged to ride it? And how do you know they're not being charged? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 24 22:25:52 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 22:19:22 2008. OK, to streamline this, I posted the question in my most response. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 22:30:58 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 24 22:24:14 2008. Who isn't being charged to ride it?Anyone arriving at one of the branch's two stations (which are close together and essentially one station) via any method other than via the Howard Beach (A) station. That includes car, kiss&ride, foot, bicycle, and MTA/NYCT bus. And how do you know they're not being charged? Because I've been there... |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 24 23:05:42 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 22:30:58 2008. Anyone arriving at one of the branch's two stations (which are close together and essentially one station)How are the two stations to which you refer essentially one station? Beside which, we're talking about Howard Beach. Got to compare apples to apples. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 24 23:15:14 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 22:30:58 2008. Anyone arriving at one of the branch's two stations (which are close together and essentially one station)And here's another response: How's this different from SIR at Tompkinsville and St George? Is charging riders at St George unfair just because they went some little distance further? E.g., I go from Tottenville to Tompkinsville free, but if I want to go one more stop, I get hit with the fare - is that fare fair? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 05:50:34 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 24 23:05:42 2008. They are very close to each other at the very end of the line. It is apples to apples. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 05:52:04 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 24 23:15:14 2008. No, SIR is a rapid transit line. The HB branch of AirTrain is not.Also, SIR SHOULD be paid for! They just collect the money at the major, end of the line station, here almost everyone gets off. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Mon Feb 25 16:41:20 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 22:18:36 2008. I think we have. The HB branch is a free on-property circulator, yet subway transferees (and only subway transferees) are being charged to ride it. That makes no sense, is wrong, and is bad transportation policy.Subway transferees are not the only ones being charged to ride. People arriving at the HB subway station by car, bus, taxi or foot are also being charged. I don't disagree with you that this is a "pedestrian toll" and not an "AirTrain Fare". My questions are, "Why?" and "So what?". |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 17:05:02 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 05:50:34 2008. Lots of stations are very close to each other. That doesn't make them the same station. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 17:23:25 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 05:52:04 2008. No, SIR is a rapid transit line. The HB branch of AirTrain is not.This is a semantic game. FRA, e.g., doesn't consider SIR to be a rapid transit service either, as I recall. Also, SIR SHOULD be paid for! And Airtrain shouldn't be paid for? As I've said, I'd understand your argument a lot better if you merely claimed that Airtrain shouldn't charge any fares whatsoever. I still wouldn't be persuaded by it, but at least I'd follow the argument. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 18:09:14 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Mon Feb 25 16:41:20 2008. Why? My guess is because PANYNJ wanted to collect additional revenue.So what? It makes no sense, is wrong, and is bad transportation policy. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 18:09:51 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 17:05:02 2008. In this case it does. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 18:12:37 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 17:23:25 2008. This is a semantic game. FRA, e.g., doesn't consider SIR to be a rapid transit service either, as I recall.I sincerely hope you know what I meant. And Airtrain shouldn't be paid for? Ok, you really don't know what I meant. Read this: Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question (576200) |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 18:28:00 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 18:09:51 2008. You need an argument for that, otherwise you convince no one. The bare assertion doesn't make it so.WHY are the two stations really just one station, per your thinking? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 18:32:41 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 18:12:37 2008. Okay, it's been a fun debate. We're just repeating the same things to each other, so I don't think we'll be resolving this particular part of the argument without some breakthrough.Oh well, we tried. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 18:38:29 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 18:28:00 2008. They are adjacent. They serve the same thing - the Long Term parking lot. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 18:39:33 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 18:32:41 2008. huh???? you don't seem to understand my whole point about the Jamaica branch being a rapid transit line and the HB branch being a free on-airport circulator! Read what I linked!!! |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 18:48:31 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 18:38:29 2008. If two stations are adjacent to each other, how can they be the same station? You really don't want to say that a station is adjacent to itself.Now that we've established that the two stations are not the same station: Do both stations ONLY serve the long term parking lot? Or does one station serve things that the other does not? |
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