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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Dec 29 16:02:59 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by irtredbirdr33 on Thu Dec 29 12:00:04 2022. Although the Composites were originally Hi-Vs, when they were modified for el operation, their original Hi-V controls and brake equipment were removed and replaced with Lo-V controls and brake equipment most likely because those parts were lighter in weight than the Hi-V parts and weight was an important consideration. It was standard practice on the IRT for the car bodies and operating equipment to be ordered separately and installed by the company. Thus the Hi-V parts removed from the Composites were converted to Lo-V operation and installed in the new steel car bodies being ordered at the same time and these car became the Flivvers. Also new maximum traction trucks with one motor per truck to spread the weigh were installed on the Composites and the original Composite trucks installed on the Flivvers. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Dec 29 16:14:12 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 29 11:29:20 2022. I recall riding standard body IRT cars on the Polo Grounds Shuttle in the early 1950s and they were probably Hi-Vs since the first time I recall seeing a controller handle other than the brass Hi-V style was on a Lex Exp when I was about 10. One night when coming home across the 155 St viaduct around 1955, I remember looking out of either a bus window or my father’s car window and seeing a Gibbs in the 155 St station (I was able to tell a Gibbs from a standard IRT cars by the lack of a RFW). |
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Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 29 19:55:02 2022, in response to [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Dec 29 13:35:41 2022. Hello Bill (newkirk)Yes, Polo Grounds trains were stored at Mosholu Yards -- so this would likely be such as this car has a cut back shoe for Polo Shuttle use.. And this car is a 1909 built HEDLEY Hi-V Motor Car with Manual Lever controlled doors. Most of the Hedley Motor Cars were converted to MUDC Hi-V Cars in the mid-late 1920's. The few remaining Hedley Pilot Cars with all manually operated doors, served out their lives as work train work motors. For those who DON'T know, Hedley Bodies were the predecessor of the Low V Bodies and looked the same after being converted to MUDC -- except for the 3 panels in the side doors. And the Hi-V 60VDC Buss Jumper pockets under the anticlimbers. Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Dec 29 22:26:15 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by randyo on Thu Dec 29 16:00:39 2022. It was explained to me once that the Flivvers were Lo-V's with Triple Valve breaking. Can you verify this? Thanks. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Dec 29 22:33:58 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by randyo on Thu Dec 29 16:00:39 2022. I've forgotten what the white lines under the car numbers meant. Do you know what they specified? |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 29 22:49:55 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by irtredbirdr33 on Thu Dec 29 12:00:04 2022. Larry RedbirdYour posting need important CORRECTIONS: Not ALL Manhattan EL cars were High Voltage Control. The last groups of IRT Wooden EL Cars - built new as Gate Cars between 1909 and 1911, were Steel Post framed EL Cars with Low Voltage controls. These cars were numbered as follows: IRT EL LOW-VOLTAGE MOTOR CARS 1660 to 1671 1753 to 1761 1811 AND 1812 IRT EL LOW-VOLTAGE TRAILER CARS (and all had EL style 3rd rail drop sled shoes on their trucks) 1706 to 1711 1724 to 1752 NOTE; No wooden post framed IRT EL Cars were Low Voltage Motor or Trailer cars. Also, HIGH Voltage IRT EL TRAILER cars had NO 3rd rail shoes and had 600 Volt DC jumper cables between those cars and coupled motor cars at each end. This followed the same setup as Hi-V Steel subway cars regards - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 29 23:02:29 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by Express Rider on Thu Dec 29 22:33:58 2022. IRT High Voltage Steel Subway cars had a WHITE LINE under the numberIRT Low Voltage Steel STEINWAY cars (standard body and 1939 WF Class) had a RED LINE under the number IRT Low Voltage Steel Standard Body cars had NO LINE under their numbers regards - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 29 23:32:03 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by Bill Newkirk on Wed Dec 28 18:55:27 2022. Yes Bill (Newkirk)The Gibbs cars were structurally modified by the IRT when the IRT shops has the new center door opening "cut into" the body center area. The IRT thus installed a slightly longer and a slightly bit deeper fish-belly plate to reinforce the carbody. And the first cars to get a fish belly plate, IRT fabricated. The later Hedley Hi-V and following Low-V cars had a floor sill and frame system built to compensate for the factory installed center doors and required a somewhat bit smaller center fish-belly plate. Note: the IRT's 50 Deck Roof all motor Hi-V cars did not require a fish belly because factory plans for possible installation of a center door at a later date were incorporated into the carbody steel framing and specifically into the more extensively framed under-floor beams and steelwork. . The Gibbs cars were built new as a basic Gondola Car steel body. The end vestibules were ALL STEEL -- their floors, underfloor framing, end and side frames, and the vestibule roof steel bonnet and its sloping clerestory end. The ROOF of the Gibbs Cars had numerous steel side upright frame posts to and across the roof. However, like the wooden EL cars they (and the Composites) were improve-designed from, the Gibbs Car roof itself was sheathed with wood slats like an EL (or the mostly wood Composite) car and those wood sheathed roofs were canvas covered. BELOW is the interior of an IRT Gibbs car I took back in 1957 in the former Starlight Amusement Park just west of the ex-NYW&B Railway 4 Track embankment near E. 174th St Bronx. I shot many more such scrap shots there that (and other) days. This car was set on fire to burn any non steel materials - and note that the wood and canvas clerestory and lower roof is burned away - leaving ONLY the steel portions of the car remaining. Note thet Steel bonnet roof over the vestibule is still intact also!  That was the weak spot in the so called "crash improved" Gibbs carbody. Therefore the Gibbs cars could be telescoped more easily in a fast enough crash. regards - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 29 23:38:14 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 29 19:55:02 2022. Heh -- making a typo correct to one of my earlier replied re: Mosholu Yards - Polo layupsThis >> " except for the 3 panels in the side doors. And the Hi-V 60VDC Buss Jumper pockets under the anticlimbers." Should have appeared as >> " except for the 3 panels in the side doors. And the Hi-V >> 600 VOLT DC" << Buss Jumper pockets under the anticlimbers." !!! Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 06:41:50 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 29 19:55:02 2022. Thanks Joe.Bill Newkirk |
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[PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 06:59:05 2022, in response to [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Dec 29 13:35:41 2022.  |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 07:59:20 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 29 23:32:03 2022. Thank you Joe.Bill Newkirk |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by irtredbirdr33 on Fri Dec 30 14:04:09 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 29 22:49:55 2022. Not ALL Manhattan EL cars were High Voltage Control. The last groups of IRT Wooden EL Cars - built new as Gate Cars between 1909 and 1911, were Steel Post framed EL Cars with Low Voltage controls. Joe: According to Gene Sansome's book these cars were converted to low-voltage in 1920's. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by irtredbirdr33 on Fri Dec 30 14:14:19 2022, in response to [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 06:59:05 2022. Bill: The roster in "The Elevated Railways of Manhattan" lists Gate car 232 being converted to MUDC on 7/10/24. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by irtredbirdr33 on Fri Dec 30 15:00:16 2022, in response to [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 06:59:05 2022. Bill: The IRT never bothered to re-number the MUDC conversions. Most of the car were in the four digit series. However there were about 30 or so cars numbered between 11 and 242. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 15:25:11 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by irtredbirdr33 on Fri Dec 30 15:00:16 2022. Thanks LarryBill Newkirk |
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Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 30 15:52:02 2022, in response to [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 06:59:05 2022. Hello again Bill (Newkirk)Larry redbird answered you accurately. Some newer IRT EL Gate Cars (motors and trailers) were numbered into the older NY Elevated Car number sequences Here is that short list below -- Car # ------- Builder ----- Build Date ---- Car Type 11 ---------- St. Louis ----- 1907 ------- Trailer 40-41 ------- Wason --------- 1902 ------- Motor 42-91 ------- A.C.F. -------- 1901-2 ----- Motor 92-241 ------ Wason -------- 1902-3 ----- Motor 242 --------- St. Louis ----- 1907 ------- Trailer The following LOW NUMBERED Gate car numbers were converted to MUDC in the 1923-24 period 11, 161-162, 172, 189, 191, 194, 211-212, 216, 218, 220, 222 to 225, 227, 229 to 234 The following HIGH 4-NUMBERED Gate car numbers were converted to MUDC in the 1923-24 period 1121 to 1218 -- BUT NOT CARS 1130, 1144, 1185, 1191, 1193, 1201 1255 to 1313 -- BUT NOT CARS 1258, 1292, 1307, 1314 1416 to 1528 -- BUT NOT CARS 1447, 1459, 1415, 1515 1634 to 1652 -- 1653 to 1672 -- BUT NOT CARS 1653, 1672 1673 to 1812 -- BUT NOT CARS 1686, 1713, Car 1718 was converted to MUDC 4-2-1924 but ends rebuilt to gate car in 1927 - reason not disclosed by IRT LOW VOLTAGE CONTROLS were installed on the following IRT EL Gate Cars all of which became MUDC cars in 1923-24 1660 to 1671, 1706 to 1711, 1724 to 1752, 1753 to 1761, 1763 to 1809, 1811, 1812 Regards - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 30 16:09:09 2022, in response to [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 06:59:05 2022. Hello Bill and all For those who are not aware, this car is at the rear of an uptown local (3rd Ave EL) at the south end of the uptown E. 59th Street local Station. The south end edge of the station platform is seen at right edge of photo. The two old buildings at top right, seen behind the train and station, and a 2 story smaller one hidden at the s/e corner -- were finally torn down for a modern tall glass fronted monstrosity located on that 3 building site there presently. The tenement at the top left of photo (N/E corner) was gone years before 2015. Basically, EVERYTHING you see as documented in the photo above is totally gone forever! PS: I used this uptown EL station many times on return home uptown on the EL, on shopping trips with my mother to BLOOMINGDALES Dept. store located at the N/W corner, by the Downtown E. 59th St. Station House. Regards -- Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 30 16:24:30 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by irtredbirdr33 on Fri Dec 30 14:04:09 2022. Hello LarryThat could be a fact --- being as Low-Voltage control started with the 1915 Subway Steinway Low-V cars -- so it could be likely that the Low-V EL Cars were actually built new as Hi-V Cars. Or perhaps built new as Low-V's to test out the Low-V Control systems in advance for a few years before deciding on building 1915 and later IRT steel subway cars with Low-Voltage controls. The IRT Manhattan Elevated Division shop list I have is vague on WHEN the IRT EL cars became Low-V (if delivered new or converted later in 1920's). But at this late date, it really doesn't matter. Gene's book has a number of known errors in it (well, most books do, heh) -- but thanks for the info and clarification. Regards - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Dec 30 16:44:18 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 29 23:02:29 2022. One Flivver, 4048 for some reason had a white line under the number. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Dec 30 16:46:22 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by Express Rider on Thu Dec 29 22:26:15 2022. I have a post in this thread that explains the genealogy of the Flivvers.That should explain it. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Dec 30 16:58:20 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Dec 29 22:49:55 2022. There are a few misconceptions regarding some of the differences between Hi-V and Lo-V control systems. All the Hi Vs on the NYCTS had manual acceleration meaning that the controller had a series of points generally half in series and half in multiple (parallel) which required to M/M to manually advance the controller through the points to achieve maximum acceleration. All the Lo-Vs as well as the cars on the BMT and IND which had low voltage controls had automatic acceleration meaning that the M/M could place the controller in multiple and the train would automatically accelerate to maximum speed. There are properties that have high voltage control systems that are automatic acceleration line the prewar H&M cars and others that have low voltage control systems that are manual acceleration like the New Haven heavyweight MUs. From what I have been told by some old time IRT people who had worked the el, all the cars both Hi-V and Lo-V had manual acceleration. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by irtredbirdr33 on Fri Dec 30 17:06:21 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 30 16:24:30 2022. Joe: You are the foremost authority on the Manhattan El system that I know. So I always consider what you have to say very seriously. What was always confusing about the IRT was their particular nomneclature. Low-voltage and high voltage refer to both an electrical system and a class of subway cars. We had the Hi-V cars, yet all the Composites had a high voltage system so why weren't they called Hi-V's. Another example was in their route designation. The 3rd Avenue Local-Express was so called because it ran express in Manhattan and local in the Bronx. Yet the 2nd, 6th and 9th Avenue Expresses also ran local in the Bronx but they were never called local-expresses. If you wouldn't mind there is one point that I would like to hear your thoughts. About 473 Composites (out of 500) were transferred to the el system circa 1916. They were used primarily on the 3rd Avenue Lcl-Exp and Thru-Express and the 2nd Av-Freeman Street Express. A few were used in shuttle services. The maximum car length for the 3rd Av Express was 7 cars and for the 2nd Av- Freeman St trains was five cars. Together these two services would not have needed so all those cars. There must have been a lot of then just sitting in the yards. Let me wish you a very Happy New Year. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 18:41:46 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 30 16:09:09 2022. Thank you Joe, but in your own words, can you explain the three digit car number on some MUDCs ? Larry Redbird said a few words, I wonder if you could dive deeper on that.Bill Newkirk |
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Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 18:47:19 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Dec 30 15:52:02 2022. Thanks Joe, Was #11 and the other three digit MUDCs the newest edition of MUDC conversions for the need for more conversions ? I was wondering why they didn't use number #1813 and up.Ignore my request on the other post. Bill Newkirk |
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[ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 19:16:06 2022, in response to [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 06:59:05 2022. 
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Re: [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Dec 30 19:49:37 2022, in response to [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 19:16:06 2022. At least the BMT standards had nothing to do with this.:) |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Fri Dec 30 23:33:06 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by irtredbirdr33 on Fri Dec 30 17:06:21 2022. Larry R33,I always thought the Composites were transferred to the El after the Malbone wreck. That was Nov.1918. Wooden cars forbidden in subways. |
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Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sat Dec 31 02:59:21 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 18:41:46 2022. Bill ---The very FIRST elevated cars for the first 3 cars for cable operation of West Side & Yonkers Patent Elevated Railway, possibly numbered 1-3 before retirement, were built and used 2/14/1870 thru 4/20/1871, then used as coaches behind West Side & Yonkers steam "dummies". See photo of these odd cars below:  More cars were built but with Shad Belly bottoms, as follows, replacing the original 3 former "cable cars" 1-4 NYERR Shadbelly coaches Jackson & Sharp 1872 5-7 NYERR Shadbelly coaches Jackson & Sharp 1873 8-10 NYERR Shadbelly coaches Jackson & Sharp 1874 11-16 NYERR Shadbelly coaches Cummings 1875 See photo below of those Shad Belly cars  These shad belly cars were replaced by newer coaches 1876 or 1877 and disposed of. These cars had smaller side windows and some had a narrow center door in the sides, and were used on the NYERR 9th & 3rd Ave El lines and acquired by Manhattan Elevated Railway Co. by 1879. Here are their roster roster numbers (#'s 17 to 39) seen at top line in the larger roster of 1876 to 1879 built steam era gate cars below: 17-39 NYERR Steam Coaches Gilbert & Bush 1876-77 40-80 NYERR Steam Coaches Gilbert & Bush 1878 81-177 NYERR Steam coaches Wason 1878 178-208 NYERR Steam coaches Gilbert & Bush 1878 209-242 NYERR Steam coaches Wason 1878 243-292 NYERR Steam coaches Gilbert & Bush 1879 BELOW is a photo circa 1877 of 2 of the center door cars built in 1876-77 (#'s 17 to 39) seen at the stub ended South Ferry Battery Park FIRST terminal that dead ended At Whitehall Street with its 2 bumper tracks facing into Front Street  Below are some photos of the 1879 Gilbert & Bush built cars having 14 evenly spaced windows -- a train of them brand new at South Ferry Terminal in 1879. (I scratch built a model of one of these in O Scale)  And my scratch built O Scale Model of these cars seen on my EL System  These 14-window (#'s 243-to 292) cars were built more substantially in underfloor framing - so that the IRT deemed them suitable to be electrified as MU "Trailer" cars to run between Motorized El cars. The earlier 1878 class (209 to 242) were NOT deemed as suitable and were gone from passenger use during full electrification of the EL', and sold to other short-line railroads and/or scrapped. The original Manhattan Elevated Cars built for the New York Elevated Railway Co by Wason & Gilbert & Bush (#'s 17 thru 208), built between 1875-1877, ALSO had very light underbody framing designed for "towing" operation in one direction by a "locomotive". These cars could be pushed for yard and coupling moves, but their drawbars (couplers) and floor-framing was not suitable for "push-pull" type continual passenger service we know of today. Nor the buffeting between motor cars. They were a bit shorter at 46 feet over end sills, and lower by at least almost a foot (at roofline) and a bit narrower than later 1880 built 6-4-6 window standard EL Gate trailer cars.The ABOVE CARS were disposed of by 1902. Other than a few cars retained as work box cars or some with the bodies removed and converted to flat cars. Most of the EL Gate trailer cars built from 1880 were of the standard body 6 - 4 - 6 window spacing and very many of these were rebuilt and converted to become the first Motorized Electric EL cars by 1900-1901. The balance of the 6-4-6 cars not motorized became MU Trailer cars. Below are models I built of two of my many 6-4-6 window motor cars seen on my EL - the left car being a 6-4-6 MU trailer ![](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/26540212522_95b54fe1df_b.jpg") ALL EL Gate Trailer cars built from #'s 243 thru 292 (Built 1879 with 14 even spaced windows) and THEREAFTER in the sequential number series, from the steam era, of various window spacing, most being 6-4-6 spacing, were electrified for MU use as trailer or Motor Cars. Below is my scratch built O Scale 18 window EL Gate trailer car The the car at left in the photo) replicating the prototypes built in 1878 and numbered 501 to 520 and 521 to 540. These also were deemed structurally qualified to become MU trailers in Electrified trains.  The Only IRT EL Gate MOTOR CARS were those that were either converted from steam era trailers of the 6-4-6 window spacing, and those built new, as electrified, between 1901 thru 1911 as MU Trailers or Motor cars and having the 4-4-4 (6 pairs) window spacing. These cars also had slightly higher clerestory roofs than previous cars. Bill, under the IRT / Manhattan Railway Division, it appears that the "standardized Electric Fleet utilized the single and dual digit car numbers taken from earlier NY Elevated Railway fleet of by 1900, obsolete and out of service cars. To replace those cars out-of-service and re-use their numbers with "modern" electrified fleet" cars. That was the logic. The 3 digit numbers on some MUDC cars were their original Gate Car numbers -- per my various gate car explanations above. regards - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by irtredbirdr33 on Sat Dec 31 03:45:47 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by r17-6599 on Fri Dec 30 23:33:06 2022. R-17: The IRT had operated from the Composites and Gibbs Hi-V's together from opening day in 1904. They were very nervous about having a collision with both steel and wood cars in the same train. Once all the new Hi-V's were delivered by 1916 the Composites were transferred to the el lines. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sat Dec 31 03:54:32 2022, in response to [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 19:16:06 2022. Hello BillRe; THIS CAR (photo) This car was a BRT rear ended car and I cannot remember where or when or what line. I least heard about it in the 1960's and perhaps "somewhere" in my dracularian files and archives I may find the reason. However, what I do know is that the car framing top to bottom atthe salvaged end was firm and sound so the BRT shop carpenters carefully and cleanly "cut away" all the damaged area wood and etc., from floor to roof. A clean "haircut" or amputation, so to speak. Originally, # 817 was a BRT 6-4-6 window spacing trailer car having Manhattan EL Car style seating (like 1200 & 1400 cars) built new in 1884 for the Brooklyn Union Elevated Railway. Some years later circa 1888 or so, it had a center door cut into it and remained as a trailer. Later it became a Motor Car by 1899 and stayed as car # 817. The interior seating was changed to solely wall seats (ie: like an IRT Low-V) Sometime after 1900 and before 1909 it was involved in an accident and the car was cut in half salvaging one good end up to to the center door as photo shows, with the opposite end damaged wrecked wood and and structure cleanly cut away to smooth cut edges. As per the photo. It was turned over by 1908 - to the Transit Development Corporation which rebuilt and modified traction cars.  And here is what its sister car also rebuilt in 1909 by Transit Development Corp, # 1281, looked like, identical to # 1282.  The Transit Development Corporation was given this amputee car (heh) and totally rebuilt it in 1909. It converted the body to an evenly spaced 16 window motor car, and installed 1300 series EL Car interior flop-over reversible cross seating. By 1930 the car number was changed from # 817 to # 1282 and it was run with 1200, 1300 and 1400 series EL cars generally. I may have a photo of # 1282 itself to try to find the time to find, heh --- but for now, this is all to provide. Regards - Joe F PS: 817 was rebuilt something like the good end of wrecked R-16 # 6494 used to repair the wrecked end of R-27 8217 back in 1958 or so. |
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Re: [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by irtredbirdr33 on Sat Dec 31 04:04:53 2022, in response to [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Dec 30 19:16:06 2022. Bill: Car 817 was built as a steam trailer for the Brooklyn Elevated Railroad in 1884 as car 75. It was re-numbered to 817 in 1903-04. It was re-built by the Transit Development Corporation in 1909 (probably as a result of the above collision). It was subsequently re-numbered to 1282 in 1930 and then to 648 by 1940. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sat Dec 31 04:50:29 2022, in response to Re: [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by irtredbirdr33 on Sat Dec 31 04:04:53 2022. RedbirdAs a 6-4-6 window steam trailer newly built in 1884 - yes, the car was # 75. But BRT records I have show it was 817 when the center door was added and as a motor car a few years later. Scrap records show it was 1282 from 1930 until when scrapped. Where did 648 come from in 1940 ? According to BMT records - TDC rebuilt cars 1261, 1282, 1283, and 1286 and 1287. , The first 4 cars were scrapped together with their numbers intact, in 1955. The 5th Car, 1287 was scrapped Nov.. 11, 1946 The 648 car and its class-series #'s 633 to 682, were 6 window - center door- 6 window center door motor cars and entirely different body class & style. Just like # 659 in Branford Museum -- and here is # 659 in work service (photo below)  At this point, I am thru with all this - spent enough time on 6 hours all night on this continuing on and on stuff.... regards - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Dec 31 08:06:11 2022, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by irtredbirdr33 on Sat Dec 31 03:45:47 2022. IINM the inaugural train that Mayor McClellan operated was a mixed bag of Gibbs Hi-Vs and Composites. |
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Re: [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by irtredbirdr33 on Sat Dec 31 08:36:31 2022, in response to Re: [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sat Dec 31 04:50:29 2022. Joe: Forget the part about 648. There was an error in my source which I did not catch. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sat Dec 31 16:30:27 2022, in response to Re: [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by irtredbirdr33 on Sat Dec 31 08:36:31 2022. Hello LarryThanks for the update -- I sort of figured something was amiss due to some type of error re: # 648 ! regards - Joe F |
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Re: [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Dec 31 21:38:27 2022, in response to Re: [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sat Dec 31 03:54:32 2022. Fascinating! |
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Re: [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Dec 31 22:21:59 2022, in response to Re: [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sat Dec 31 03:54:32 2022. Pure Gold ⭐️ |
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[PHOTOS] #1282 Was #817 |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Jan 1 07:39:41 2023, in response to Re: [ANOTHER PHOTO] Attn: JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Dec 31 21:38:27 2022.  
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Re: [PHOTOS] #1282 Was #817 |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Sun Jan 1 07:44:23 2023, in response to [PHOTOS] #1282 Was #817, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Jan 1 07:39:41 2023. Gorgeous! (1282) |
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Re: [PHOTOS] #1282 Was #817 |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Jan 1 19:05:55 2023, in response to [PHOTOS] #1282 Was #817, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Jan 1 07:39:41 2023. Hello Bill (Newkirk)THANKS for those 1282 car photos --- yes --- the unusual 16 window car basically following the 16 windows count of the original carbody of 6- 4 - 6 (total 16) spaced windows of car 75 as built new. I found in my files a photo of 817 when it was rebuilt in 1909 by TDC as a 16 window car. SEE BELOW. It is NOW APPARENT that this 1909 "as rebuilt new" photo shows the car still numbered 817 from its former center-door-motor-car days. Still bearing its 817 number as it was re-numbered when converted to center door trailer car around 1888 as renumbered from earlier # 75 when it was a 6-4-6 window-spacing trailer car type as built new in 1884.  As I wrote earlier, # 817's body previously was different prior to 1908 - that being after it was center door modified and still a trailer around 1888 and motorized around 1901-2. Here BELOW is a photo (of my scratch built O Scale Model on my EL) of what 817 looked like by 1901-02 as a motor center door car.  BELOW is the type of interior basically found in # 817 as a center door car --- this particular car shown BELOW actually being an ex Kings County Elevated RR Car # 516, converted in 1888 to center-door car... and itself motorized in 1901. By mid 1920's all center doors were sealed shut and wall seats inserted across their openings  As I posted on this thread earlier, The reversible-backs seats for the 1909 TDC Co. rebuilt # 817, later renumbered by BMT in 1930 to # 1282, were duplicated from the style of the BRT 1300 series all motor convertible sides gate car reversible-backs-seating. As originally built, the car as # 75 in 1884 was a 6-4-6 window spaced car and had Manhattan Style seating - SEE PHOTO BELOW:  Here below is the exterior body style of car # 75 as appeared when built new in 1884 until center door added around 1888  Well, this car as # 75, # 817, and # 1282, had a quite varied history and THREE body styles and changes. It lasted until 1955 as # 1282 .... but most ALL of its 800 series center door class of cars -- as shown of my own O Scale model of identical car # 849, were scrapped by 1930-31. Excepting a number of that style that were retained (some with roof trolley poles) as work motor horse cars for yard shunting and work trains. regards - Joe F |
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Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957 |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 2 01:15:22 2023, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] The East Bronx IRT Crash of 1957, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Dec 31 08:06:11 2022. That was because, there were no Gibbs or even Deck roof trailers. The only trailers were Composites till steel Hi-V trailers started to arrive circa 1915. |
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