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| Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened? (1030985) | |
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Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 31 00:57:09 2011, in response to Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 00:51:29 2011. Fun day ... I love the smell of ozone and sparks in the morning. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 01:05:00 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 29 17:52:41 2011. That is correct. Interestingly in 1924 Pitkin Avenue didn't exist literally at 76th Street and the two adjoining blocks:http://gis.nyc.gov/doitt/nycitymap/?z=8&p=1022868,185836&c=GIS1924&s=i:PITKIN+AVENUE,76+STREET,QUEENS |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 01:08:43 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 29 20:43:23 2011. That still doesn't follow. It's much cheaper to rip up a street for building a subway than it is to build a subway station that can't be used until such time as an expensive extension to that subway is built. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 31 01:11:23 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 01:08:43 2011. Perhaps the fact that I was busting balls is standing in the way of getting it? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 01:25:44 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 31 01:11:23 2011. I got that, but I had to take it seriously in case someone else did! |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 31 01:38:36 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 01:25:44 2011. Ah well ... that saves everybody else the effort ... recess! :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 02:02:59 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 31 00:51:08 2011. 50's 60's. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 02:34:03 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 01:08:43 2011. Maybe not. Don't forget the 174 St Yd in Wash Hts. The B of E built the yard for the B of T a few years before the subway was built to avoid having the school and adjacent school yard underpinned when it was time to build the actual subway. The yard and short portions of tunnel leading to it were built and the rest of the leads were merely connected to it when the subway construction reached that area. Now that you mention it, weird though it sounds, once the final routing of the IND subway was decided on, it may be possible that the station shell was built as part of the Pitkin Av straightening even before the stations between ENY and Euclid were built. That could also account for lack of information since the construction of the subway shell may have just been lumped in with local area street realignment. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 02:35:10 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 02:02:59 2011. I imagine most of us are thinking 30's and 40's. |
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Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 02:40:15 2011, in response to Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 00:54:13 2011. I agree with that, however the lack of an actual station shell at 2 Ave would mean that there would be more disturbance to existing Houston St service than there would be if an entire station shell were constructed like So 4 St or Utica upper. The same would be true of the Bedford Av subway since there was only a space left above the Fulton IND and not any kind of subway infrastructure. |
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Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 02:43:09 2011, in response to Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 00:55:46 2011. At the time construction was started on the dual contract lines, there was a lot of waffling as to which of the 2 companies would get which lines so there were provisions built so that any of the new lines could be connected to either companies' existing lines with a minimum of difficulty. |
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Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 02:45:51 2011, in response to Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jan 30 23:11:52 2011. The concrete bulkhead at that location also seems to be suspiciously close to the point where A7 and A8 yard leads would be descending from Pitkin Yd to connect with the mainline subway infrastructure. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 31 02:46:38 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 02:35:10 2011. Heh. Didn't want to cause a shitstorm myself. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 02:53:59 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jan 30 23:33:19 2011. That's similar to what I was told about my block on Hendrickson St in the Marine Pk section of Bkln. My group of houses was built circa 1960 and subsequent to that, the city upgraded the sewer systems by raising the street level. This encroached on some of the properties in the area and at the time of the reconstruction the existing homeowners were compensated for the loss a a few feet of height to their property. That explained why my garage and the single room rental apartment next to it were on a slight downward slope form the sidewalk. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 31 02:59:10 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 02:34:03 2011. Oh NOES! The plot sickens! Heh. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 03:05:15 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Sun Jan 30 05:00:25 2011. From the 1924 aerial photo of the area, it seems that the area through which Pitkin Ave was routed into Old South Rd was just open unoccupied land and therefore suitable for a road since there seemed to be no homeowners who would be evicted from their properties as a result. I was definitely done sometime between 1924 and the 1940s and I suspect it may have had something to do with proposed subway construction whether or not a 76 St station shell was actually constructed. It would be interesting to check real estate records from the late 1940s to see if any homes were built and/or sold based on the promise of anticipated subway construction as was the case with the Sheepshead Bay and Marine Pk sections of Bkln. Potential buyers in that area were promised that the IRT Nostrand Line would be extended to Sheepshead Bay and many real estate brokers used that to sell homes in the area. |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jan 31 03:52:48 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jan 30 23:16:06 2011. The difference is that 76th Street does appear on the track board, but nothing past 179th Street does. |
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Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jan 31 04:19:09 2011, in response to Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 00:54:13 2011. But how much more can they carve out of the ceiling before they undermine the street? IIRC, that end of 2nd Ave/Houston isn't especially deep. I think there's only 1 mezzanine level at that end, and the ceiling in it is not especially high. It would seem to make more sense that if they were going to build a provision along with the rest of the station, they would allocate all the necessary space ahead of time, then they could just build the station right in the space without having to carve more out (aside from entrances and the like). |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 04:45:04 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jan 31 03:52:48 2011. While we are on the subject of Euclid's board, what surprises me is that there is made mention of a 76 St interlocking. I would have thought that with the introduction of NX type interlocking 76 St would have been controlled either from Euclid itself or from Pitkin Yd like 80/Hudson St and not as a separate tower. |
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Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 04:48:46 2011, in response to Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened?, posted by 3-9 on Mon Jan 31 04:19:09 2011. They wouldn't have to carve anything out but in the case of Utica and So 4 St, the complete station shells were there platforms and all so that linking up the mainline portions of the subway could be carried out without any disturbance to existing service whereas at 2 Av, the floor of the station shell with roadbed and platforms would have to be constructed over an in service station area impacting on existing service. |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 31 05:11:58 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 04:45:04 2011. IND had a strange penchant for local towers, and so I heard even the use of portable towers when extensions were underway. Since 76th wasn't apparently intended for Euclid, chances are the final tower would have been further out the line. But FWIW, I understand that there was once a local tower for the 72nd Street interlocking on CPW at some point ... |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jan 31 05:12:15 2011, in response to 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Jan 28 13:58:35 2011. One thing I'd like to know: if the yard leads to 76th St was dismantled and the openings blocked, would there be any documentation as to when and why it was done? Like management orders, or a budget item, for instance? I would think that would be the case especially if they were going to permanently seal off a tunnel. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 06:03:29 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jan 30 08:01:13 2011. That area bordering Lindenwood is still known as "The Hole". It's a mob dumping ground.A lot of the raising of streets and sewage work is still ongoing. The area was a swamp where the sources of those streams that go into Howard Beach, etc originated and there were many farms there until only a few decades ago. Kinda like pre-1910 Sunnyside Yards or the Sunswick valley in Astoria/LIC (the area around 21st St) or the area in Corona that became LeFrak City. There are houses in The Hole built well after the IND where the first floors are now basements and the second floors are first floors due to subsequent street raising. None of this has to do with the mythical 76th St station. The link to the NYC aerial maps clearly shows that there was nothing of note at that intersection in 1951 which would have been around the time when this conspiracy allegedly started. |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Jan 31 06:18:53 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by f179dj on Sun Jan 30 10:38:52 2011. Hollis Court Blvd. was wider and would have been a better choice for a subway; but then Moses would have had to be careful extending the Clearview to points south.It's absolutely hilarious seeing a massive, expensive, high-capacity 4-level stack interchange with one arm ending in a traffic light. I do wonder what the sense was of building that there, rather than at the LIE. |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jan 31 06:38:26 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jan 31 03:52:48 2011. No, that's not a real difference. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Jan 31 07:04:13 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jan 30 23:33:19 2011. The intersection of Amber Street and Loring Avenue has two levels, the west/south upper level and east/north lower level, with no connection.Wow. I just looked that up on Streetview. It's a bit of a contrast. The upper level is a tidy, if quiet neighborhood. The lower level is virtually a wilderness. |
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Re: 76th thread on this non-subject? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 07:33:08 2011, in response to Re: 76th thread on this non-subject?, posted by Newkirk Images on Sun Jan 30 05:29:32 2011. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 07:56:13 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 29 20:23:02 2011. The next available photo is from 1951, a time when the connection to the Liberty El had not yet taken place.If there was a heyday for 76th St layups that would have been it. Notice in that pic, you can tell from the shadows that Pitkin Av has been raised along with Ruby St south of Pitkin and 76th St north of it. A concrete shell sticking out besides and under Pitkin would have been visible on the still unbuilt intersection under such circumstances as well as other telltale signs of a still somewhat active station. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 08:08:11 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 28 19:21:17 2011. No need to do that. Look at the 1951 photo from the nyc.gov site.It's better than digging. The City raised the road there. You can tell from the shadows. The adjacent unbuilt plots are depressed compared to Pitkin and to Ruby south of it and 76th north of it. The equivalent of digging. No shell. No entryways. No signs of mezzanines. Nothing. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 08:30:48 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 07:56:13 2011. Still active station? No one is claiming the station was ever "active" if it was built. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 08:32:46 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 02:35:10 2011. For 76th St, yes. But that is not what is being discussed in my post a few posts up, under which your response is: http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=1031839 |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 08:45:44 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jan 31 08:30:48 2011. It's clear from that picture that no station was ever built.I am failing in my attempts at saving that pic in order to post it here. If you can post the 1951 pic of that intersection like you did with the 1924 one, it would be helpful for others so that they know what I'm talking about. |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Jan 31 08:59:16 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jan 31 03:52:48 2011. That's obviously because the various interlockings in that area would be very close to one another and the relation between them would be important. It doesn't mean that all of them were built. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jan 31 09:55:55 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Sat Jan 29 23:10:58 2011. There is ample evidence of this, if one where to examine the level of the three Jewish cemeteries that boarder Old South Road.The wesrten most cemetery has a jump in elevation about half way between Liberty Ave and Old South Road. A similar street elevation occured in old Howard Beach during the late Sixties. 101Th St, 100Th St. and Cohancy St. just south of S.Conduit Ave come to mind. The Street level was raised between 4ft. and 6ft. Avid |
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Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 31 10:42:57 2011, in response to Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Sun Jan 30 22:00:45 2011. The shell station,if built would be East,not west as I posted.Larry Furlong was in that space above the tracks. He told me about it& I got in.its a 2 track superstructure that runs the length of the ROW.one trackway is paved over while the other clearly is strong enough to hold a subway train.this section is part of an emergency exit. |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 31 10:49:10 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 31 05:11:58 2011. 76st was supposed to have its own tower. |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 31 10:49:10 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 31 05:11:58 2011. 76st was supposed to have its own tower. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 11:24:09 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 02:34:03 2011. In that case though, the part of the yard built before the rest was built under a building, which would necessarily have to have been demolished if the subway were built in the future (as it was). I don't think the same sort of thing would have been done for a street. |
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Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Mon Jan 31 12:37:09 2011, in response to Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 02:43:09 2011. At the time construction was started on the dual contract lines, there was a lot of waffling as to which of the 2 companies would get which lines so there were provisions built so that any of the new lines could be connected to either companies' existing lines with a minimum of difficulty.Does lower level Nevins St. figure in with this ? Bill Newkirk |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 14:01:27 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 11:24:09 2011. The building would not have had to be demolished but it would have had to be underpinned during construction. The photo of ENY station being built under Truxton Pk illustrates the point. The city was able to build the station in its entirety by simply opening up the park completing the station shell and covering it back over. It still might have been easier and faster to build everything at the same time. The same thing as I mentioned in another post was done when the IND subway was built at the same time that 6 Av was extended south from W3 St to Canal St in Manhattan. |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 14:05:08 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 31 10:49:10 2011. That's the point I was trying to make. With NX type interlocking being introduced at that time and Pitkin having control of 80/Hudson St why would a separate tower been needed for 76 St when the interlocking could easily have been controlled by either Euclid or Pitkin Yd? |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 14:20:48 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 31 05:11:58 2011. 72 St had not only one but two local towers one for each level. Each machine had sufficient spaces so that appropriate levers could be installed on either machine to enable one tower to control both levels at some future time. As for the iND having a lot of local towers, that was only because it was the state of the art at the time and was no different from the private companies. In fact, the IRT probably had more local towers than either the BMT or the IND and was more likely to have portable towers since more IRT lines than IND lines terminated at places that didn't have interlockings after they were extended beyond those points. I can't off the top of my head think of any place on the IND where there were any "portable" towers since the IND always terminated at places that had their own towers. Even when the Fulton St Line terminated at Rockaway Av, the switches that were installed there were controlled by Utica tower. It may also be possible that although it was planned for 76 St to have its own tower, had the line out Pitkin been completed to a further point, the B of T or T A might have added that interlocking either to Euclid or Pitkin's board when it came time for the actual installation. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 14:36:19 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 07:56:13 2011. Depending on the timeline for the realignment of Pitkin and Old South Rd together with the possible construction of the subway in that area probably wouldn't have raised any eyebrows especially since from the 1924 photo, there were few if any houses in the immediate area. I traced along Pitkin Av using Google Earth and the houses that are along Pitkin Av in that area where the station would be are of relatively new style construction and were definitely not there when the subway was being built and in all likelihood did not go up until the 1960s after George Abere and I walked the area the first time in 1962. Many of the houses themselves are set back from the sidewalks along Pitkin possibly lending credence to the presence of something under the surface that might have precluded construction closer to the sidewalk area. What I noticed both from Google earth and from personal visits to the area within the past 6 years is that the manhole cover that was stamped "Independent Subway System" located in the middle of Pitkin between Grant and Eldert Lane in 1983 was no longer there since the street had been repaved and all evidence of the manhole had been removed. |
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Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 14:39:15 2011, in response to Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Mon Jan 31 10:42:57 2011. It would have to be west of Nostrand since that is where Bedford Av is located. |
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Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 14:39:59 2011, in response to Re: Time to put this myth to rest Was: 76st what happened?, posted by Newkirk Images on Mon Jan 31 12:37:09 2011. I believe so. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 14:42:58 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 14:01:27 2011. Underpinning a whole building is difficult and expensive. A street in a sparsely-developed neighborhood can be ripped up with minimal effect, especially back then when there were fewer cars. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 14:45:16 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 31 08:08:11 2011. That doesn't disprove the subway, it might support it if the street was raised to build the subway at shallower level. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 14:47:05 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by 3-9 on Mon Jan 31 05:12:15 2011. Maybe yes and maybe no. As late as 1983, there were furnaces in Mosholu Yard that were still coal fired and although coal had to have been purchased to keep them running, there was no paper trail whatsoever indicating any payouts for the coal. One TA manager suggested the money might have come out of petty cash. In any event, if someone high enough wants to hide something, it can be done. I might have gone on the budget as "routine tunnel maintenance" or something equally innocuous. |
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Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 14:51:11 2011, in response to Re: PROFF Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Jan 31 06:18:53 2011. The LIE interchange was designed that way to minimize the taking of property and maximize the space taken from the park instead. The GCP/Clearview however is entirely in a park. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 31 14:57:41 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Jan 31 02:53:59 2011. I never heard of that as Marine Park always seemed to be a more "modern" neighborhood. I used to live not far from there with a sunken garage, but that seemed more likely to be deliberate, it allowed fewer steps to the main floor (which also allowed more front yard space and/or building closer to the sidewalk) while keeping the garage beneath it so as not to take space from the main floor. |
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