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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 11:58:47 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 18 11:53:12 2008. Thank you. Now when you compare the costs... |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Mon Feb 18 12:00:12 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 11:21:19 2008. But the SFO fare is a $1.50 surcharge over the distance based fare. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Feb 18 12:01:44 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 11:58:47 2008. Is this gonna end up as "you get what you pay for"?? I've got one AirTrain fare bet on it and have to go set a couple of property corners so I won't be here for the final answer :D It's Fi dollar I got riding on this yo.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 18 12:15:21 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 11:58:47 2008. ...when you compare the costs AirTrain is still better, as see Fred's post....you get what you pay for. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 18 12:17:38 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 11:58:20 2008. I am mnot saying anything ridiculous. You are taking a sample of people of 20 minutes, from who knows when and who knows who, and are saying that is a scientific sample, which it's not.And what I am saying is ridiculous? I think not, I can say the same thing, about your position, about a ludicrous "Passenger toll", and how is that "helping". |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 12:18:39 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Fred G on Mon Feb 18 12:01:44 2008. Yeah, I'm heading out now to buy a car. Cars rule anyhow. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 12:19:42 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Mon Feb 18 12:00:12 2008. And it's charged by the train that needed to bring you to and onto airport property. It is the equivalent of the Jamaica branch. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 12:22:45 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 18 12:15:21 2008. You get good service for free on the bus or slightly better service for $5 on AirTrain. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 12:23:38 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 18 12:17:38 2008. Yes, the 20 minutes of an average day should be indicative. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Mon Feb 18 12:44:24 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 12:19:42 2008. I think you're splitting hairs here.The "extra fare" is charged when you swipe at the exit gate on SFO property. The agency that is collecting the fare seems to me to be irrelevant unless you understand the financial arrangements that are in place between SFO and BART as well as between MTA and PANYNJ. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 12:48:19 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Mon Feb 18 12:44:24 2008. No, I'm arguing this whole thing based on principle and good transportation policy. I'm saying that I think the SFO situation checks out, while the JFK situation doesn't. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Mon Feb 18 12:51:24 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 12:48:19 2008. But who defines principle and good transportation policy? You? Why you? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 18 12:57:46 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 12:22:45 2008. Slightly better? Absolutely not. Not even a contest. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 18 13:00:52 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 12:18:39 2008. In that I agree.In fact, forget AirTrain and the Q10. Take the car and park in Long Term Parking....or do what I usually do, have some one drop you off....a lot less stress than using the subway, LIRR, AirTrain, and especially the bus. I have used the JFK airtrain from Jamaica many times, but that was usually only when the weather was bad, and didn't want to put someone out to drive me, or when I couldn't get someone available. And it was fine, but certainly not as good as throwing the bags in the trunk, and dropping them at the curb in front of the terminal. I am leaving this thread with that. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 18 14:11:55 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 10:10:21 2008. It is a HUGE conspiracy.Hyperbole alert? Really, please. Cry me a river! It's not bad at all. You're traveling with one carry-on. It's a cinch. An airport bus is bad enough; but these local buses also serve local communities. I'm not sure what Q10 is like, but M60 to LGA seems like a particularly bad setup, since the bus has a function not only for airport customers, but for 125th St crosstown service as well. As a crosstown passenger on that bus seeing the maneuvering problems caused by airport passengers, it's really not fair to either segment. How much better than that is Airtrain? Quite a lot, I think. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 18 14:16:12 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 10:15:35 2008. They can make up the revenue elsewhere if that's a problem.So the fiscal people at PA turn to you, 'How do you propose to pay for the free rides you're giving out? We're out $X million dollars, and you say you can make this revenue neutral. So who are you going to charge more?' |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 18 14:20:05 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 12:48:19 2008. Aside from the normative point about what is and isn't good policy and how to decide that, it would seem consistent for you to also oppose to SFO/BART situation. I'm having trouble discerning how you see a difference between these two cases that makes one 'good' and the other an evil 'conspiracy'. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Feb 18 14:22:02 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 18 14:11:55 2008. I used the M60 about six times. It's OK, but not being a low-floor design I had to manhandle bags up, only to find, half the time, that I had no seat. When we got to La Guardia, never morte than three or four people would get off, combijed, at the terminal stops.I would say AirTrain beats it hands down. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by JohnL on Mon Feb 18 14:27:59 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 18 14:16:12 2008. You add the costs to the Passenger Facility Charge, which is a portion of the ticket price. The cost of the airport roads, which is not insubstantial, is included in the charge. Why not rails? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Feb 18 14:41:14 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by JohnL on Mon Feb 18 14:27:59 2008. Agreed. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by JohnL on Mon Feb 18 16:11:43 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 18 10:41:37 2008. And for the record, most people deciding on the taxi option probably would never even consider using the subway/airtrain, much less a bus.Maybe not subway/airtrain, but I could certainly see LIRR/AirTrain. I think for potential passengers in midtown it has to be the fastest, most reliable way to JFK. Which is why I have been advocating extending AirTrain to LaGuardia. The passenger base for this airport is mostly the briefcase and overnight bag brigade, who values a fast airport trip over anything else, and doesn’t need to wrestle heavy suitcases. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Feb 18 16:16:07 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by JohnL on Mon Feb 18 16:11:43 2008. Agreed. The PA had to truncate AirTrain's proposal beck in 1994 when the projected price tag for JFK+LGA exceeded $7 billion.Well, they got JFK done for $1.9 billion. I would not recommend trying to price out an LGA extension right now, because of all the other simultaneous projects going on. By the way, the fancy entrance to the PATH terminal at the World Trade Center is probably going bye-bye because the same price inflation that hit Fulton Transportation Center is hitting the PATH hub too. |
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Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 18 17:07:05 2008, in response to Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 18 10:55:01 2008. I am not advocating that any money be spent on this. |
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Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 18 17:25:53 2008, in response to Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 18 11:01:12 2008. No, because the convenience of the AirTrain over the Q10 is significant, the convenience of the Battery Tunnel over the Brooklyn Bridge is less so. Either way you're driving your car, one may be slightly longer or simply slower with traffic.If you want to compare the Q10 with the AirTrain, a more apt comparison is going from Connecticut to Long Island through Manhattan to avoid paying for the Throgs Neck Bridge. And walking from North Conduit or Howard Beach to Lefferts Blvd to avoid paying $5 for AirTrain is like using the Bear Mountain Bridge to go from Fort Lee to Manhattan to save $5 on crossing the Hudson River. I don't think anyone in their right mind would do either of those things. The difference is that bridging the Hudson River at Fort Lee-Washington Heights is a feat of engineering that's worth $6 (less with E-ZPass). A walkway connecting HB subway-AirTrain isn't. This is even more of a scam than the Atlantic Beach Bridge. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 18 17:28:03 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 18 11:20:55 2008. Most of what people? Like I said, when the price of a good or service drops, demand rises. People who do not "demand" AirTrain service do not ride it. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 18 17:38:08 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 18:36:25 2008. 2. The Howard Beach (city council member / civic association / whatever else) wants or wanted it that way. Perhaps they didn't want their neighborhood to turn into a neighborhood of long-term parking facilities and airport hotels. Perhaps they didn't want people driving through what is mainly a residential neighborhood to create a "kiss and ride". This wasn't an issue during the bus shuttle days, as the entry from the streets of Howard Beach was not nearly as convenient as it is today (stairs as compared to elevators) and, quite frankly, the shuttle buses sucked.This is an unlikely outcome. First, zoning would preclude any such development near Howard Beach, and in the case of Kiss-and-Fly at Howard Beach, the Lefferts Blvd station is so much more highway-accessible that even with some congestion at that location, few would likely to save time by using Howard Beach, even if they knew it existed. Long-term parking on the street is also unlikely because of alternate side parking regulations. A person would have to depart after the ASP day and return before it, unless the person planned their trip around the fact that the ASP day would be a parking holiday that week. I don't know if Howard Beach has ASP beyond the area near the station though. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 23:37:00 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 18 13:00:52 2008. holy f'ing sh*ti hate car dealers this had to be one of the most draining days of my life (and this airtrain conversation had nothing to do with it) why does getting a car, and verifying the numbers, have to be so difficult??!!?!?!? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 19 00:25:55 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 23:37:00 2008. Yes, I hate car shopping and care dealerships. I am glad I don't buy a car that often. I have had my current one about 5 years now.And if your ordeal was more draining than this AirTrain conversation, that is saying a lot!! |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Feb 19 02:21:41 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Feb 18 16:16:07 2008. Agreed. The PA had to truncate AirTrain's proposal beck in 1994 when the projected price tag for JFK+LGA exceeded $7 billion.Did they already have an alignment for such a plan? Was it going to use the Van Wyck? By the way, the fancy entrance to the PATH terminal at the World Trade Center is probably going bye-bye because the same price inflation that hit Fulton Transportation Center is hitting the PATH hub too. Do you mean the Calatrava designed building? Where did you hear this? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Feb 19 09:48:03 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by SMAZ on Tue Feb 19 02:21:41 2008. Did they already have an alignment for such a plan? Was it going to use the Van Wyck?Yes. The Jamaica Leg would use the Van Wyck. If I recall correctly, the LGA leg would use the Grand Central expresway, serve the airport and then continue across the East River to a Manhattan terminal on 59th St. "Do you mean the Calatrava designed building?" Yes. "Where did you hear this? " On-line editio of one of the New York papers. No final decision has been made yet. Sun Times There was another I read and can't find. But the cost overrun at PATH WTC hiub is very large. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 19 14:07:29 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Fytton on Mon Feb 18 10:13:35 2008. It's now flat fare both ways.:( for me since metered fare from/to East Village was cheaper unless the road was really congested. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by metropod on Tue Feb 19 15:42:55 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by subfan on Mon Feb 18 11:19:00 2008. no, i've had experecnes where i'm right. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Feb 19 15:47:26 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by metropod on Tue Feb 19 15:42:55 2008. no, i've had experecnes where i'm right.OK, but it's not standard operation. In normal operation a train goes back to the terminal it originated from. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by metropod on Tue Feb 19 15:55:21 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 12:22:47 2008. I've been looking over the area in question through Google Earth, and there don't apper to be any sidewalks near the lefferts station on lefferts itself. It also looks to be a 10-12 block long walk from North conduit station to lefferts. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 19 18:37:37 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 18 10:33:32 2008. If you want to take the bus to the airport, then pick up a bus map! It very clearly shows the Q10 and others circling the airport!You need a new bus map (PDF link)... The buses now only serve Terminal 4. Q10 Limited and B15 now both stop at Lefferts Blvd Airtrain station too. Just to let you know... |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Feb 19 18:57:51 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 18 09:59:49 2008. PATH is shown on NYC transit maps too, albeit in a lighter shade. The map doesn't say PATH costs an additional fare. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Feb 19 19:35:16 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by metropod on Tue Feb 19 15:55:21 2008. I haven't walked it so I don't know. But I know others have. I'll probably do it at some point. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 19 20:06:02 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 19 18:37:37 2008. So, then they are connected to the whole airport via AirTrain and the Lefferts airtrain station. They don't need to circulate the airport, we have airtrain which circulates the airport. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Feb 19 21:07:27 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 19 20:06:02 2008. But the MTA/NYCT bus passengers are getting to ride AirTrain for free from Lefferts (rightfully so), which is right next to HB, where NYCT subway passengers have to pay $5. The distance and time differences are neglibible. So why do the subway passengers get tolled? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 19 21:20:54 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Feb 19 21:07:27 2008. I already said all I had to say about that $5 thing. (I said I was leaving this thread at that, there are plenty of posts about the $5 issue in other posts I have made, no need for me to repeat them and start all over again) I was only making a comment about the Q10. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Feb 19 21:28:05 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 19 21:20:54 2008. In that case, could you pass me the $5? I can't take AirTrain tomortow, but I can buy breakfast. :0) |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by mkeit on Tue Feb 19 22:01:11 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Feb 19 19:35:16 2008. Its a parking lot-you walk through it. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 20 03:48:46 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RonInBayside on Tue Feb 19 09:48:03 2008. Thanks. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 20 06:39:53 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Feb 19 21:20:54 2008. I don't think you have an answer, that's why. There is absolutely no reason people coming from the same mass transit company and boarding at two adjacent stations should have to pay two different fares. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 20 06:51:42 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by mkeit on Tue Feb 19 22:01:11 2008. I know that part. I meant from the N Conduit (A) station. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 20 11:21:56 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 20 06:39:53 2008. I already explained the answer I had, I'm not going into it again. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 20 11:23:01 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 20 06:51:42 2008. Who the hell would want to walk all the way from the N. Conduit station to the airport! And if they do, let them have the $5. I wouldn't walk that with any regularity, or with luggage for $20. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 20 12:27:59 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 20 11:21:56 2008. Really? Because I don't recall it being brought up previously in this thread. But I could be wrong. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 20 12:29:36 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 20 11:23:01 2008. Who the hell would want to walk all the way from the N. Conduit station to the airport!Anyone who doesn't want to pay the $5 to cross an imaginary line. I wouldn't walk that with any regularity, or with luggage for $20. I would! You could make maybe $60+ per hour. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 20 12:36:29 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 20 12:29:36 2008. Anyone who doesn't want to pay the $5 to cross an imaginary line.More power to them. And it's not an "immaginary line". I would! You could make maybe $60+ per hour. Then go for it... |
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