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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 12:00:03 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Feb 14 09:59:11 2008. until such time as he gets around to using the rest of the money on the card.It's HIS money. AirTrain did not take it away. Not any differnt than saying the subway cost $1.67. It costs you $2 each time until you use your original investment up of $10, at which time you will have the extra $2. ONLY then does the subway cost you $1.67. People are quick to say the subway only costs $1.67 per ride, it's no different to say Airtrain costs $4 using the same argument.. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 12:10:08 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 14 09:26:59 2008. No. I can't accept this reasoning now that I think of it. Saying that a subway ride is only $1.67 using the argument of "buy $10 get $12" is no different than saying that Airtrain cost $4 when using the same "buy 10 get 12" discount. It's paradoxal, or a chicken and egg scenario. A subway ride is $2 base, just like an Airtrain base is $5. A subway ride is no more really $1.67 than an Airtrain ride is $4 using the exact same MC. Using the MetroCard $10 to get $12 discount is the same whether you buy airtrain with the MC or the subway.Think about it, you can use your same argument the other way, using the AirTrain as your base and try and figure out what the savings on a subway really is. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 12:22:47 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 11:41:35 2008. Remember, it costs money to park, so those people using Airtrain already paid to parkNo, people can be dropped off at the kiss and ride zone at the Lefferts Blvd AirTrain station. They can also walk to that station from the (A) at N Conduit Av. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 12:26:03 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 11:46:56 2008. Yes, it is. If you arrive at the HB branch of airtrain via any other method than crossing that bridge over the imaginary line, then you pay no fare, which makes sense, since it is an ON THE PROPERTY FREE AIRPORT CIRCULATOR. THOSE ARE NEVER CHARGED FOR. Instead, PANYNJ decided to charge a pedestrian toll to those accessing the ON THE PROPERTY FREE AIRPORT CIRCULATOR from the adjacent, off the property (A) train station. |
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Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 12:39:40 2008, in response to Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 11:50:47 2008. Don't tell me that there is some sort of mass of people that are getting charged to walk from their Howard Beach homes (dragging their luggage) to the Howard Beach AirTrain. What would that be, one person a year at best?They can't do that. Peds get charged the PEDESTRAIN TOLL!!!! Instead they can walk to the Lefferts Blvd station and ride the free circulator for free. But it doesn't matter how many do it. It's the fact that the option is available and doable. The fare is for people transferring between Howard Beach NYCT station to AirTrain, just as there is from the Suphin Blvd NYCT station at Jamaica (as well as LIRR) to AirTrain. Incorrect. The Jamaica branch is an off-property rapid transit line that brings you from a "downtown" (for lack of a better word) that is a great distance away from airport property, right to the terminals. The charge to ride that branch is for the service of bringing you to and/or onto airport property. This is done at many airports, such as in San Fran (iirc), Philly, and at O'Hare. However the HB branch is only an on the property free airport circulator. It does not bring you to the property. It does not bring you onto the property. It only carries you through the property. There are no airport circulators in this country that I know of that charge you for this service, and the HB branch is no different. At any of the stations along the HB branch, you can exit airtrain onto airport property and not pay a fare. That's great! Now say you then want to leave the airport property. Well at the Lefferts Blvd station of AirTrain, you can just walk or drive or get picked up. Only the "drive" option requires you to pay, and that's the parking fee. But at the HB station, you only have two options, walk or drive. If you drive, you pay the parking fee. If you walk, you pay the pedestrian toll to walk through a previously free pedestrian connection to the (A) train station. It is that pedestrian toll that I, and others, disagree with. eople dropping people off on Airport property can leave them at the circulator. Right! They don't pay anything! Why is that?!?! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 12:44:46 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 11:56:10 2008. You buy a $16.70 MetroCard. With bonus, it comes to $20.04. AirTrain subtracts $20. You're left with 4 cents. It cost you $16.70 to ride AirTrain. Not everyone wants to have $4 left to go ride the bus or subway if they don't plan on riding the bus or subway! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 12:45:57 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 12:00:03 2008. Yes. That's what I said. And if he forgets to use it and doesn't get the refund within the prescribed time, he lost the money. So it's not his money. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 15 12:51:35 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 12:00:03 2008. If I buy Twinkies pne at a time in the store they cost $0.89 each (you can get them in onesies, not just two-ses). If I buy them by the box, I pay only 30 cents for each cake, or less. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by JohnL on Fri Feb 15 12:52:00 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 15 00:42:11 2008. Yup, in the mathematical sense, the JFK AirTrain is the single exception to the rule. I’m not including EWR AirTrain, as the only pay piece is the trip to Newark EWR station, which could be reasonably compared to the Jamaica leg of JFK AirTrain, and Brian doesn’t have any problems with charging for that.I put the SEPTA instance in as a joke: since it’s a non-trivial walk to the SEPTA stations from the terminals, it could be more effort to take the “circulator” than to walk! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 15 12:59:16 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by JohnL on Fri Feb 15 12:52:00 2008. Good point about SEPTA stations.Have you been to Detroit Metro Airport? I think the upper-level people mover is cool. If I recall right, it only makes 3 stops: Either end of the building, and the middle. If your gate as at the 1/3 or 2/3 mark, it's pointless to try to use the people mover. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 13:09:36 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by JohnL on Fri Feb 15 12:52:00 2008. Again Ron doesn't address the issue. Why do you bother? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 13:38:31 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by JohnL on Fri Feb 15 12:52:00 2008. It's not a single exception. The Jamaica Leg and the Howard Beach leg are paid routes. The CIRCULATOR, the part that connects the parking lots to and cicles the airport terminals is free. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by JohnL on Fri Feb 15 13:44:43 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 13:09:36 2008. Actually, in this case, he did. I asked what other circulators charge, and Ron answered “none that I can think of”.So, Ron’s statement that “most circulators are free” is correct. It also lends credence to your belief that the Howard Beach Service is really a circulator. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 15 13:45:57 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 11:56:10 2008. I don't get this whole $16.67 thing.If a 12-pack of Coke costs $6, do you say that a can of Coke costs $6, but then you have 11 free cans? No, you say a can of Coke costs $.50, becasue you know you'll eventually drink the other 11 cans. Similarly, a subway ride for NYC residents costs $1.67. (OK, Pigs, $1.66-2/3). Any other cost is nonsensical for residents of NYC who use the subway repeatedly and don't buy a monthly. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by JohnL on Fri Feb 15 13:48:34 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 13:38:31 2008. You missed the point. The Howard Beach leg is free. If you use it to go to the Long Term Parking Lot, you pay no money. If’s only when you use it to take the Subway you pay.And, as Brian has pointed out elsewhere in the thread, if you go to the Lefferts Blvd stop to use the drop-off/pick-up service (which is most of the way to Howard Beach), the service is free. You may not agree with Brian’s assessment of the situation, but it is consistent and logicl: the only charge really is to enter the Howard Beach subway station. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 14:58:32 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by JohnL on Fri Feb 15 13:48:34 2008. Thanks. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 14:59:30 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by JohnL on Fri Feb 15 13:44:43 2008. I could be wrong, but I don't think Ron was trying to prove the same point that you and I were. |
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Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 15:42:50 2008, in response to Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 12:39:40 2008. They can't do that. Peds get charged the PEDESTRAIN TOLL!!!!That's ecactly my point!! There ARE no pedestrians there, only people that are potential fare evaders. It's the fact that the option is available and doable. For the one person a year that may walk all the way from their Howard Beach home dragging their luggage? It does not bring you to the property. It brings you from the NYCT station to the circulator loop. There are no airport circulators in this country that I know of that charge you for this service, and the HB branch is no different. Right, and the CIRCULATOR loop part of the airtrain is free like everywhere else. The trains that bring you from Howard Beach or Jamaica are not. If you walk, you pay the pedestrian toll to walk through a previously free pedestrian connection to the (A) train station. But that was the point, WHO? is walking to the HB station, all one of them a year from their Howard Beach home? No, it's potential fare evaders from mthe HB NYCT station. If they didn't charge there, and left the gate open, all those people would try and evade the fare, and walk to the parking lot mixing with the people that paid for their Airtrain trip via parking. If it's felt that that parking fee is not enough, then raise the parking fee. Right! They don't pay anything! Why is that?!?! Because they are not using the service from the Howard Beach station. |
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Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 15 15:45:37 2008, in response to Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 15:42:50 2008. I'm glad you guys are having a good time with this.Anybody for popcorn? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 15:47:13 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 12:22:47 2008. Right, and what's wrong with that? They aren't taking the AirTrain from the Howard Beach station. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 15:51:25 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 12:26:03 2008. If you arrive at the HB branch of airtrain via any other method than crossing that bridge over the imaginary line, then you pay no fareCorrection. If you areive to Airtrain via the Howard Beach STATION you pay the fare. Fine close the long term parking lot station if it will make you happy. It makes no sense to do so, and make all those people walk after paying their parking fee, but at least it will resovlve your percieved injustice of the Howard Beach terminal station of that leg. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:00:25 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by JohnL on Fri Feb 15 13:48:34 2008. I didn't miss the point. Those people using the Long Term Parking lot station paid their parking fee. Most of the people using that station paid their parking fee. If that's not enough to some people, then argue it should be more. However, MOST of the people using the Howard Beach station did NOT walk there, they came via NYCT. So the problem here is that some people feel some people are getting a "free ride", just as drop off people using that Long Term parking lot station.So the argument shouldn't be this ludicrous "pedestrian toll", it should be perhaps they should revamp the Long Term Parking lot station structure, perhaps a fare ticket included with the parking fee, so people not parking there have to pay at that station. That I could see before just letting the gates open for free at Howard Beach station. |
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Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 16:09:50 2008, in response to Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 15:42:50 2008. The Lefferts station is right next to the HB station! Why is there no charge from there for people getting dropped off? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:11:26 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 12:45:57 2008. If you forget to use the last $2 after using your Buy $10 and get $12 for 5 subway riders, you also lost money, and those 5 rides you did take cost you $2 each. NO different. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:13:11 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 12:44:46 2008. Then no one here can ever say the subway "really costs $1.67 a ride". It's the same thing. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:14:29 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 15 13:45:57 2008. You can't say the subway costs $1.67 a ride if you can't similarly say that airtrain costs $4 with the EXACT same metrocard discount. |
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Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:19:52 2008, in response to Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 16:09:50 2008. Then don't argue that the HB people should be riding free. Argue that the parking lot people that paid their parking fee get a slip for access to the AirTrain station based on the number of people in the car, and have the drop off people pay a fare at the long term parking lot station. I can see that before just leaving the gates open at Howard Beach. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 15 16:20:27 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 11:41:35 2008. Somehow the precise numbers of dollars aren't relevant to the toll vs fare discussion. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:21:20 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 15 16:20:27 2008. There is no toll. It's a fare to use airtrain. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Fri Feb 15 16:21:44 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by caine515 on Sun Feb 10 21:28:57 2008. Outside of airport property, the B15 does not make any stops within Queens. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 15 16:23:44 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 10:49:53 2008. Still, that was a repeat worth 3,000 words... |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:25:19 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 12:44:46 2008. Not everyone wants to have $4 left to go ride the bus or subway if they don't plan on riding the bus or subway!The vast majority of the people using the Howard Beach station is using NYCT to get there. There is not some disproportionate amount of people walking from homes in Howard Beach to go to the airport. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 16:31:17 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 15:47:13 2008. Chris, please look an an aerial map. Both station are close together, at the end of the branch. They both serve the same large parking lot. One is just further west, next to the A. There is no significant cost difference between carrying someone who boards at HB vs. Lefferts. So they can be considered the same stop for the purposes of this discussion, unless you have a good reason why they can't. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 15 16:37:01 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 12:44:46 2008. Maybe ice cream shops could take MetroCard. They used to take tokens. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 15 16:39:35 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 15 12:51:35 2008. And Twinkies can last a long time in the refrigerator. A LONG time. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 15 16:39:46 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 15:47:13 2008. Right, and what's wrong with that? They aren't taking the AirTrain from the Howard Beach station.It's quite simple. For instance, I could drive from Bristol, England, to Cardiff, Wales. It's 44 miles. There's a toll on the bridge across the Severn estuary. Alternatively, I could drive to a nice mediaeval free bridge at Gloucester, and it would be 101 miles. Somehow, my £5.10 (about $10) is worth it, seeing as the Severn estuary is a pretty big natural barrier that took a terrific work of engineering to overcome, and that work requires maintenance. The JFK barrier, however, is pathetic. It's a fence. It would be cheaper simply not to maintain it, and my journey would be shorter for less money. Airtrain itself is entirely outside the fare zone, and therefore totally irrelevant to the toll. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 16:40:33 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 15:51:25 2008. Why in the world would you do that??? It is a free on airport circulator that serves people at the airport! Why wouldn't you instead just stop charging the people who are already at the airport and are being charged!? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by wzlirr on Fri Feb 15 16:46:49 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Andy on Sun Feb 10 18:28:59 2008. You do NOT want to exit at the 111 Street station, as it's about 4 storeys in the air -- it is on a flyover to avoid the LIRR branch below. I did it last year when I had free time. I used the [L] to New Lots, then the B-15 bus (I had to squeeze onto the B-15 bus which is crowded and has two legs) to get to JFK. Then I returned via Q-10 bus to Lefferts and Jamaica Ave, walked over 2 blocks to 111 Street and then up, up, up, up to the token booth and then up again to the platform. You don't see this advertised as a transfer point to the Q10 bus, because you don't want to do this with baggage. The el here is higher than the #2,5 are at Intervale Ave in the Bronx. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 15 16:53:37 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by wzlirr on Fri Feb 15 16:46:49 2008. Agreed; 111th St is only preferred if you believe in punishing yourself for having heavy bags in your hand. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 16:57:15 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:00:25 2008. No, you don't get the point. No airport charges for its circulator! If you started charging for it, it would force drop offs to occur on the terminal roadways instead, causing more congestion!!!! Airtrain is supposed to reduce congestion! So why are people who take mass transit right to the edge of the parking lot being charged, while people who get dropped off at the next station, which is right nearby, don't get charged?!?! Why do people who take mass transit, buses, to Fed Circle, get to ride Airtrain for free from there, when buses add to congestion at the airport, while the subway doesn't?!? Shouldn't they be promoting the subway over the bus, or at least treating both equal???? is it so much cheaper to carry nyct customers from fed circle than from HB? why don't they ban buses from coming to the airport, just like they banned subway passengers from freely coming to the airport? Make the buses drop off at the HB subway station so the bus passengers need to pay for airtrain. Is all this crazy? Of course! Instead, drop the ped charge for nyct subway customers! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 15 16:59:45 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 16:57:15 2008. "No airport charges for its circulator!"Actually, you're right. Kennedy Airport does not charge for the circulator. It is the operator, Bombardier Transportation, which charges you for it. |
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Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 17:03:58 2008, in response to Re: Crossing Imaginary Lines, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:19:52 2008. No! No airport charges for its on the property circulator, and I see no reason to change that! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 17:04:42 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:11:26 2008. No, that person uses the subway. In this example, the person does not use the subway!!!!! He took the LIRR!!!! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 17:05:51 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:13:11 2008. Yes they can! It costs $1.67 for people who use the subway! For someone only using AirTrain and the LIRR and who doesn't use the subway, it is $2! They need to actually use the subway to get the discount. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 17:06:10 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:14:29 2008. see previous posts |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 17:07:30 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:21:20 2008. No, it is a toll to get onto the property. The on-the property circulator is free, like at all other airports, AFAIK! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 17:08:54 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:25:19 2008. We're talking about THIS THREAD! Read the OP!!!! Hello!?!? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 17:12:58 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 16:57:15 2008. There is no reason that they should be punishing E/J (J added just by default, as it is also technically an airport rider, even if the least used for that purpose out of the three subway airport lines) riders by charging them, yet letting A riders on for free. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 17:19:01 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 17:12:58 2008. Yes there is!!!!!!! J riders are utilizing an off-airport rapid transit system called AIRTRAIN that takes them a long distance, from a downtown (Jamaica) to the airport!!! (A) riders are ALREADY at the airport! They are just outside the fence! And before airtrain opened, that fence had a free opening in it!!!!! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 17:25:14 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 17:06:10 2008. He still walks away with a $2 metrocard, just like a subway rider walks away with a $2 metrocard after spending the same money. What either of them do with it after that is their decision. They canuse it for the subway, wait to accumulate a few and use it for more AirTrain, or whatever they plan to do with it, either way, $10 = $12. |
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