|
|
| Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question (567079) | |
 |
|
| Home > SubChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
Page 5 of 29 |
||
|
| (571185) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 19:12:18 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:00:25 2008. I have NEVER seen anyone else (outside of about 5 people at SubChat) have an issue with this. No where, no place.You say that as though this is the only obscure issue (or non-issue depending on your point of view) which appears only on SubChat... I've never run into anyone on the street who debates whether or not there is a station at 76th Street. |
|
|
| (571187) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:15:38 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 19:08:27 2008. I absolutely agree. The "only build the Howard Beach leg if they can get some operating costs out of it" makes A LOT of sense, as does the Howard Beach community theory. If they weren't getting the $5 at HB, and only built the Jamaica leg because of it, while leaving the unreliable shuttle bus at HB, it would have been a far inferior system. Especiually since there are PLENTY of people that don't have a problem with the $5.And for those that have a problem with it, there are less convenient, but cheaper bus options if they don't value their time, are too cheap to pay the $5, or for some reason can't. Everytime this topic comes up, I am swayed futher and further away from thinking there's any problem with the set up. There is no way I am changing my opinion on this. There's more reason to charge the $5 than not to and everything in this thread still leads me to believe this even further. |
|
|
| (571189) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 19:18:48 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 19:08:27 2008. My suspicion is the same, and so I agree with your reasons about nos. 2 and 3 too; the fare IS a barrier to access, after all, so the question is one of determining why the barrier would be erected. |
|
|
(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
|
| (571190) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:23:41 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 19:12:18 2008. Haha, agreed! But then again, AirTrain effects many more people than a supposed station at 76th does.Not to mention most people can't tell the difference, and probably doesn't give a rat's ass that there's a difference between an R68 and an R46. AirTrain effects people directly, so if there was some major problem with the structure in people's minds, I believe we would have seen at least ONE article by now. And even if there were 3 articles, I can see many more people very happy with the situation there, as they use it all the time. |
|
|
| (571194) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 17 19:29:31 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:15:38 2008. You and Charles G summarized it well. The system as is is the best they could do under the strict rules that the Feds imposed upon the PANYNJ. Of course I hope that one day AirTrain can be truly connected to either the subway system (via a ramp from the HB leg to the unused (A) express tracks) or to the LIRR (via this same ramp and unto the Old Rock ROW). They could also build a flyover to the LIRR tracks (or to the J/Z) from the Jamaica AirTrain over the Van Wyck. AirTrain would have to obviously run different equipment if this were to happen. |
|
|
| (571198) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 19:32:21 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 18:55:08 2008. Chris, it has NOTHING to do with subway lines. NOTHING. All the subway lines do is get you to one point. Then you get off them. Then you take the next step. That next step is what we are talking about. The next step in terms if the (E) is paying to ride a rapid transit line from a downtown to and onto airport property. The next step for the (A) should have been walking for free onto airport property to pickup the free airport circulator. |
|
|
| (571200) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 19:33:44 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 19:18:48 2008. But Chris does not agree that it is a barrier to access. He thinks it's a fee to ride AirTrain. |
|
|
| (571201) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 19:35:32 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 17 19:29:31 2008. What's your reason behind running JFK Airtrain into the LIRR or NYCT systems? |
|
|
| (571202) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:35:44 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 19:33:44 2008. It is. It's a fee to ride AirTrain, an AirTrain that would probably not be there if a fare wasn't charged. |
|
|
| (571203) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 19:36:18 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 18:58:09 2008. There reason for that? An uneducated guess off the top of my head: the people taking the (A) to HB for AirTrain are mainly tourists who don't know any better and don't know that the connection to the airport property used to be free. So what do they have to complain about? Whereas the people who know what's going on are taking the (E) or the LIRR to Jamaica (faster from many parts of midtown than taking the (A)) and then paying the fare from AirTrain, which no one has a problem with, because it makes sense. |
|
|
| (571205) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:38:20 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 19:32:21 2008. If they weren't charging $5 at Howard Beach for the AirTrain that is there, there would be no AirTrain at Howard Beach, and instead, the people would be left to the crappy bus that was once there before, that suckedc big time. It's not a matter of having a "pay" airtrain at HB or a "free" AirTrain at Howard BEach. It's a matter of having a pay Airtrain at HB as opposed to NO Airtrain at HB. |
|
|
| (571206) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 17 19:38:33 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 19:12:18 2008. I've never run into anyone on the street who debates whether or not there is a station at 76th Street.That's because 76th St is not debatable. Everyone knows it there!! 8-> |
|
|
| (571207) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 19:39:47 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:35:44 2008. No, it's not! It's a barrier to access! Read what I and the others just posted! And no, AirTrain WOULD be there anyhow! They needed it to connect to the long term parking lots! All the airport circulators connect with the long term parking lots!!!! And even if they built just one station and put it in the middle of the lot (which would have been asinine, because it is a huge lot and it needs two stations), then people could have walked for free into the lot and then got on the free circulator. Big whoop. A little walk. |
|
|
| (571208) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:40:44 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 17 19:29:31 2008. Yes, I agree completely. And I feel Charles cemented my thoughts on this even more than before.I believe they smartly built the AirTrain system with the provision that heavy rail could use it one day if it was so desired at some point. For now, and unless or until that happens, what is there now is fine, and a vast improvement over before it was built. |
|
|
| (571210) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 19:41:26 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:38:20 2008. No, they wouldn't be! They built the HB branch primarily to serve the long term parking lot!!!!!!!!! This is based upon a few observations of mine and at least one other person, looking to see the percentage of people who get off and go to the lot vs go to the (A). |
|
|
| (571211) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 19:41:56 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:38:20 2008. Airport circulators serve the long term parking lots! This is a GIVEN! |
|
|
| (571216) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 17 19:44:34 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 19:35:32 2008. What's your reason behind running JFK Airtrain into the LIRR or NYCT systems?One-seat ride into the CBD and other areas for one. By using the (A) tracks it would go into Downtown Brooklyn, Lower Manhattan, important Midtown locations (like PABT and NYP), Columbus Circle and beyond. A LIRR connection would send it to NYP and soon to GCT and Sunnyside Station. |
|
|
| (571218) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 19:47:04 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 19:41:26 2008. This is based upon a few observations of mine and at least one other person, looking to see the percentage of people who get off and go to the lot vs go to the (A).You're drawing a conclusion based on the wrong observation, though. The relevant inquiry is this: IF the Howard Beach of Airtrain were free, would ridership bound to/from it from NYCT's A route increase? I can't imagine that one wouldn't answer that question affirmatively, unless I'm missing something in your claim? |
|
|
| (571219) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:48:15 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 19:41:26 2008. Fine. Abandon AirTrain at the Lefferts Blvd station. Make the people from Howard Beach A's station instead board a "free" and unreliable bus. Keep it free. It would make the majority of people that use the A's Howard Beach connection quite unhappy, but would make about 5 people here at SubChat happy.And yes, to have an AirTrain terminate at Lefferts (or not even go to Lefferts, forgo that leg altogether and just have the Jamaica leg, and a they could easily have served the long term lot with a bus shuttle to Federal Circle), would be far inferior of a system, and not serve as many people as it does now. It's not a matter of a small shuttle Airtrain to Long term parking. They didn't need that station if they weren't going all the way to Howard Beach. That could have been done easily with a shuttle bus to Federal circle, and just have the Jamaica leg. It makes perfect sense that they would only built that leg if it went to Howard Beach, and a fare was charged for that. If they weren't getting fares, the shuttle bus between the long term lot and Federal Circle would have been just fine. But would have been a big loss to the subway riders that use the A station. |
|
|
| (571221) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 19:50:57 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 19:39:47 2008. Fares ARE barriers to access, so I don't quite see the point you're pressing. E.g., if NYCT were free, lots more people would ride the buses and trains, no - the fare operates as a barrier to (free) access?I think it's an open question whether they would have built the branch of Airtrain out to Howard Beach IF there weren't a fare to be charged. So again, the fare is a barrier to free access. |
|
|
| (571222) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 19:52:24 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 17 19:44:34 2008. IF that were the plan, they should've run LIRR/NYCT into JFK, which was never part of the plan, apparently. Given the choice made by PA, the present state of affairs is well enough. |
|
|
| (571224) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:57:49 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 19:47:04 2008. Would it increase people using Airtrain? Probably not. What it would do, is canbalize the Jamaica leg's usage via the E train (and to a lesser extent the J) and send them to Howard Beach via the A instead. So no, I don't see more people using AIRTRAIN per say, just a lot more people using Howard Beach as opposed to the E and Jamaica. Whereas now there is a real and viable CHOICE within Manhattan all along the 8th Ave line to use either the E or the A to get to AirTrain, a lot more people would opt for the A than do now. You probabably would even have people coming in on the E from Queens and switching to the A! Charging a free fare at Howard Beach would not only cut Jamaica's fares WAY down, as a good portion of the E/J's ridership for it would shit to the A instead, you would also lose all those Jamaica fares to Airtrain. They would not only lose the HB revenue, but they would also lose a large portion of the Jamaica's revenue because of HB.It would be DISASTEROUS. The system has to support it self at least partially. That's a lot of lost money. The more I think about it, and the more viable information people add to this argument (as opposed to nonsensical "barrier" claims), the more and more I see how it makes perfect sense that they charge at Howard Beach. You can add this as #4 to charles' possible reasons for the charge at HB. The E would no longer be an as attractive option. Much lost revenue on that leg, as well as not get any on the HB leg. Disasterous. |
|
|
| (571229) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 17 20:06:00 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 19:52:24 2008. The present affairs is well enough indeed. However the choice of not running the subway or the LIRR into the airport had to do with FAA financing rules. Since Airtrain is considered a circulator, under the law it cannot plug into mass transit systems. They would have to change these rules. |
|
|
| (571230) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by JohnL on Sun Feb 17 20:09:03 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:48:15 2008. Chris,Nothing on the airport is free. It is all paid for somehow or other. The airport roads are “free”—except that the PA has to pay to pave them and upgrade them. Remember the major upgrades about 10 years ago, when there were ramps being built everywhere? The cost for those upgrades, and the airport roads in general, is built into the passenger facility charge. This appears as a portion of the money that passengers pay to fly. Likewise, the passengers who use AirTrain as a circulator to get from one terminal to another, don’t pay an explicit charge. You argue that the charge for parkers is built into the daily parking charge. Maybe. Did the parking charges increase when AirTrain opened? I don’t think so. The same situation is true, by the way at Newark airport. So it does reasonably beg a question about why the costs of AirTrain can’t be built into the passenger facility charge. The big benefit of this is that it is a positive encouragement to come to the airports by rail rather than road. I think this benefit is seriously underestimated. However, I can see that the airlines, who have to pass PFCs onto their customers want to minimize them, so they have managed to make the $5 AirTrain charge stick. I doubt the Port Authority cares: it’s going to collect its money one way or the other. |
|
|
| (571231) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 20:10:06 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 17 20:06:00 2008. Airtrain is a circulator, yes, but is the run to Howard Beach or Jamaica a circulator run? Clearly not, I think. So I'm not quite following the FAA financing rules - is the rationale that because part of Airtrain fulfills a circulator function, the whole system - even non-circulator parts to Howard Beach and Jamaica - gets financing? |
|
|
| (571232) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 20:12:11 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:08:15 2008. If it was a choice of having just the AirTrain from Jamaica at $5, and leaving out completely the Howard Beach leg because they weren't getting $5, which is probably a MAJOR reason for the set up, and instead just have Jamaica and a bus to Federal Circle, it would be a far inferior systemNo Chris, the HB leg WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN LEFT OUT. IT WAS BUILT TO SERVE THE LONG TERM PARKING LOTS, WHICH SEEM TO BE, BY FAR, THE BIGGER SOURCE OF RIDERS ON THE BRANCH. It just so happens there is an (A) station right next to the long term parking lot!!!! So they built the connection! The $5 toll is totally unnecessary and uncalled for. Nothing is going to change my mind on this. The $5 at HB is way better than what was once there, and the two leg AirTrain system is far superior to the "free" shuttle bus there before. I'm not disputing that. I'm not disputing whether people are refusing, or even don't want to pay the $5. I'm saying that the charge is BAD TRANSPORTATION POLICY. How often do you talk to people about transportation policy??? AirTrain would NOT be a good system if it only included the Jamaica leg and forgone the Howard Beach leg if they weren't getting the $5 on it. Yes it would have! AirTrain would have been a rapid transit line from Jamaica to the airport. It's the on-property circulator that would have been asinine has they not built it out to the long term parking lot. And I'm sure that was never an option. That's what airport circulators are built for! To go between terminals and out to the long term parking lots!!!! Why do you have so much trouble sticking to the issue raised??? The only issue is that people should not be charged to enter airport property!!! |
|
|
| (571239) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 20:15:47 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:40:44 2008. that has nothing to do with the issue raised |
|
|
| (571244) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 20:20:43 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 19:47:04 2008. You're drawing a conclusion based on the wrong observation, though.No I'm not. I'm talking about existing conditions, to refute Chris's [ridiculous] claim that the alternative to the $5 fare at HB would have been to not build the HB branch at all. The relevant inquiry is this: IF the Howard Beach of Airtrain were free, would ridership bound to/from it from NYCT's A route increase? I have no idea. Why does that matter? And if it did increase, super! That's GOOD TRANSPORTATION POLICY!. Gets people out of cars and buses and onto the rails. And if it just shifted people away from the Jamaica branch, which would seem unlikely, at least in significant numbers, that would just prove that Chris and others are wrong when they says that no one dislikes the $5 toll to access the airport property at HB. |
|
|
| (571246) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 20:21:54 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 19:50:57 2008. I think it's an open question whether they would have built the branch of Airtrain out to Howard Beach IF there weren't a fare to be charged. So again, the fare is a barrier to free access.I think this is the crux of the question for Terp's issue. If the PA couldn't charge a fare from Howard Beach, would they have simply terminated AirTrain construction at Lefferts Blvd? Clearly, they needed the branch to serve Long Term Parking, the Employee Lots and to create a yard and maintenance shop. But would they have build the last three-tenths of a mile to Howard Beach station if they weren't going to derive additional revenue from doing so? |
|
|
| (571248) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 17 20:23:15 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 20:10:06 2008. So I'm not quite following the FAA financing rules - is the rationale that because part of Airtrain fulfills a circulator function, the whole system - even non-circulator parts to Howard Beach and Jamaica - gets financingYep. That's the FAA's logic. If the sections that we (or most people) consider non-circulator parts were to be officially classified as non-circulator parts there would not have been FAA approval to add a ticket charge for its capital cost and operation. The FAA and PA classify the Jamaica leg as part of the airport circulator and not as mass transit for that very reason. |
|
|
| (571249) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 20:24:09 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by JohnL on Sun Feb 17 20:09:03 2008. Nice post. |
|
|
| (571251) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 20:24:58 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:48:15 2008. No Chris, no service should be abandoned. You are still missing the point. Maybe we can go railfanning next week and I'll try to explain all this to you in person? |
|
|
| (571256) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 20:30:13 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 20:20:43 2008. I'm talking about existing conditions, to refute Chris's [ridiculous] claim that the alternative to the $5 fare at HB would have been to not build the HB branch at all.But Chris's claim, whatever else it is or isn't, is a hypothetical one; so I'm wondering how your observation of present ridership patterns with the fare(/toll) in place is meant to inform us as to what patterns might be if one could board Airtrain at Howard Beach free of charge. Why does that matter? Well, for one thing, there would be a certain asymmetry between ridership via Jamaica and ridership via Howard Beach. Most people would rather not pay $5 more for more or less the same Airtrain ride, so in that event, why not take the A train to Howard Beach and save some Lincoln paper instead of taking the E train to Jamaica? That's GOOD TRANSPORTATION POLICY!. Gets people out of cars and buses and onto the rails. It might well have that consequence. I'm a fan of lower fares on all rail services. But the PA charges what it charges, and people can be expected to go, ceteris paribus, via the path of least expenditures. |
|
|
| (571257) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 20:30:16 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 20:21:54 2008. Look at an aerial map. The long term lot is huge. I can't see them only building one station to serve that whole lot. Look at Newark Airport, they have multiple stations (P1, P2, and P3) all serving the giant parking lot. The HB branch is part of the airport circulator. The Jamaica branch is a rapid transit line. They were built for two different purposes! Not building one or the other would have left out the other purpose completely! |
|
|
| (571258) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 20:30:22 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 19:50:57 2008. Look at an aerial map. The long term lot is huge. I can't see them only building one station to serve that whole lot. Look at Newark Airport, they have multiple stations (P1, P2, and P3) all serving the giant parking lot. The HB branch is part of the airport circulator. The Jamaica branch is a rapid transit line. They were built for two different purposes! Not building one or the other would have left out the other purpose completely! |
|
|
| (571267) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 20:36:29 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 20:30:13 2008. so I'm wondering how your observation of present ridership patterns with the fare(/toll) in place is meant to inform us as to what patterns might be if one could board Airtrain at Howard Beach free of charge.Don't winder that since I wasn't telling you that. Well, for one thing, there would be a certain asymmetry between ridership via Jamaica and ridership via Howard Beach. Most people would rather not pay $5 more for more or less the same Airtrain ride, so in that event, why not take the A train to Howard Beach and save some Lincoln paper instead of taking the E train to Jamaica? Because of the longer travel time? And according to most people here who have responded in these threads, the $5 fare is no big deal. So why would anyone take a longer ride to save $5, according to them? According to them, the only people who would switch to HB if it was free would be the people who are currently taking the bus to JFK to avoid the $5 toll. It might well have that consequence. I'm a fan of lower fares on all rail services. Good. But the PA charges what it charges, and people can be expected to go, ceteris paribus, via the path of least expenditures. Not according to what most people here say. They say no one cares about having to pay $5, and not many people are taking the subway to the bus to avoid the unfair $5 pedestrian access toll. |
|
|
| (571302) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 21:28:18 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 20:30:16 2008. The entirety of the Howard Beach Branch of Airtrain is a circulator? If you think that it is, that might be the premise that puts some of us (myself included) on one side of the fence, and others of us (yourself included) on the other.It's my belief, as well as that of some others, that the entirety of Howard Beach Branch might not have been built - in fact, it might well have been the Long Term Parking Lot Branch.... Charles G puts the question well, so I'll just repeat what he says, Clearly, they needed the branch to serve Long Term Parking, the Employee Lots and to create a yard and maintenance shop. But would they have build the last three-tenths of a mile to Howard Beach station if they weren't going to derive additional revenue from doing so? I think that's the challenge for your position. |
|
|
| (571303) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 21:29:39 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 17 20:23:15 2008. Thanks for explaining that.Then again, it's so perfectly logical I'm sure any fool could've figured it out on his own. :) Not! Yeah, that's some odd reasoning, for sure. |
|
|
| (571305) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Feb 17 21:33:06 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by SMAZ on Sun Feb 17 20:23:15 2008. The rules were changed, unfortunately, after AirTrain's completion. PA Executive Director Robert Boyle threatened American Airlines' CEO Don Carty with cancellation of American's new terminal unless Carty backed off the lawsuit to stop the use of PFC money off airport property. Carty lost that battle but he and the other airline tycoons got together and pushed the FAA to tighten the rules, so other airport authorities couldn't do what the PA did. |
|
|
| (571309) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by R30A on Sun Feb 17 21:41:29 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 21:28:18 2008. Youre assuming that the majority of the riders to that station pay a fare... |
|
|
| (571311) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 21:46:34 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 20:36:29 2008. And according to most people here who have responded in these threads, the $5 fare is no big deal.The $5 fare is no big deal compared to what, though? That's the question one has to ask. Combined with NYCT and LIRR fare, it's cheaper than a cab to JFK, and hence, 'no big deal', especially compared to the price of an airplane ticket. So why would anyone take a longer ride to save $5 Because they like to save $5 for only a slightly longer ride? I'm cheap enough that I'd probably opt that route, although it's moot in my case because I have a monthly pass on LIRR already. I'd figure, 'True, the E train is slightly faster from 42nd St to the airport with the connection, but hey, I'm cheap, so I'll spend a few more minutes on the A train to save $5 each way.' According to them, the only people who would switch to HB if it was free would be the people who are currently taking the bus to JFK to avoid the $5 toll. Not sure who's made that claim, but I won't defend it. As my example just demonstrated, I myself am more than cheap enough to opt for the free HB option. And I assure you that I'm not the only such person around. They say no one cares about having to pay $5, and not many people are taking the subway to the bus to avoid the unfair $5 pedestrian access toll. OK, you assumed the burden - how many people are taking the subway to the bus to avoid the unfair $5 pedestrian access toll? |
|
|
| (571318) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 21:58:44 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 21:28:18 2008. I already answered that question in this thread. Recently. Several times. |
|
|
| (571320) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 22:04:47 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 21:46:34 2008. I'm assuming no burden. I'm playing devil's advocate. I think. If you'd rather not pay the $5, then would you today take the A to lefferts and the Q10 to JFK? |
|
|
| (571325) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 22:12:42 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 19:41:56 2008. Yes they do, but they don't have to. TO serve that lot, they needed that leg. That leg may not not have been viable to build that leg without connecting it to Howard Beach. And having an airtrain and not connecting it with a Howard Beach connection would have been an inferior undertaking. And having a connection there, and a connection to the E and not wanting the A section to be a parasite to the E section, they need to charge a fare. |
|
|
| (571329) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 22:15:29 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 17 19:52:24 2008. Yes, but it's more viable to having AirTrain connect to every LIRR at Jamaica, and the subway too, and not necessarily one direct LIRR or subway line. The Airtrain can run MUCH more frequent service than an direct LIRR or subway line can. |
|
|
| (571330) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 22:17:54 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:57:49 2008. Charging a free fare at Howard Beach would not only cut Jamaica's fares WAY down, as a good portion of the E/J's ridership for it would shi-t to the A insteadThat was supposed to be Shift.....not $hit!! |
|
|
| (571332) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Feb 17 22:18:55 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 22:15:29 2008. Indeed. |
|
|
| (571336) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 22:19:58 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 22:12:42 2008. That leg may not not have been viable to build that leg without connecting it to Howard Beach. And having an airtrain and not connecting it with a Howard Beach connection would have been an inferior undertaking.I disagree. Many/most free circulators SERVE THE LONG TERM LOT. And they are FREE. Why would JFK be any different? It was built on the property. It likely cost much less to build per mile than the Jamaica branch. And they needed to build the yard anyhow. And having a connection there, and a connection to the E and not wanting the A section to be a parasite to the E section, they need to charge a fare. Parasite? Come on. Many of you say that no one takes the bus from the subway to beat the $5 toll. So why are you now saying that people would take a "hell ride" on the (A) instead of a fast ride on the (E) if they would get rid of the $5 toll. |
|
|
| (571337) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 22:20:10 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by JohnL on Sun Feb 17 20:09:03 2008. You can't have the A section free and the E section $5. The free leg would completely cannibalize the $$ section. And not only would they not be getting the HB $$, they would also loose a substantial part of the subway's E $$ at Jamaica too. |
|
|
| (571342) | |
Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Feb 17 22:23:36 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by JohnL on Sun Feb 17 20:09:03 2008. I'd like to see parking charges increase proportionally to AirTrain (making AirTrain comparatively less expensive). |
|
|
|
Page 5 of 29 |
||
