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| Re: Air Train question (567079) | |
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| (570116) | |
Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 15 17:25:40 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 16:57:15 2008. So why are people who take mass transit right to the edge of the parking lot being charged, while people who get dropped off at the next station, which is right nearby, don't get charged?!?! Why do people who take mass transit, buses, to Fed Circle, get to ride Airtrain for free from there, when buses add to congestion at the airport, while the subway doesn't?!?Because life is unfair. There are numerous inequities in the charges for transportation in the NY area, not to mention the rest of the world. I think a far more outrageous inequity is the morning peak fare on MNRR reverse commutes. That one also hits the poorest rail commuters in the NY area the hardest. It costs at least 100 times as much in unfair charges as the AirTrain situation. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 17:26:35 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 17:04:42 2008. Either way, $10 = $12. Doesn't matter how he plans to use or not use his bonus $2. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 15 17:32:03 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:14:29 2008. You can't say the subway costs $1.67 a ride if you can't similarly say that airtrain costs $4 with the EXACT same metrocard discount.Airtrain costs $4.17 per ride, not $4.00. Buy a $16.70 Metrocard (was 16.67 but Pigs pointed out it has to be a multiple of $.05). Get $20.04 on your card. Ride Airtrain 4 times. Throw away card. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 15 17:33:47 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 15 16:20:27 2008. Somehow the precise numbers of dollars aren't relevant to the toll vs fare discussion.But it's so much fun to be picky about the $4.17 vs. $5.00 and $1.67 vs. $2.00 distinction! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 17:52:46 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 17:19:01 2008. Yes, an opening to a free inferior shittle bus. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 18:00:28 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 15 17:25:40 2008. Exactly!And it would be far more unbalanced if they were charging E/J riders, yet not A riders to use AirTrain. that make the E an less desirable route in Midtown to use (even though it's probably the better choice). that would be a far more wrong sort of inequity than that some feel exists now. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 15 18:24:16 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:21:20 2008. There is no toll. It's a fare to use airtrain.Look at the diagram. 1) Where is the fare zone? 2) Why isn't a fare charged to people who walk from Howard Beach via Conduit Avenue to Lefferts Boulevard to enter the station from the other end? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 15 18:25:28 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 15 17:33:47 2008. "Somehow the precise numbers of dollars aren't relevant to the toll vs fare discussion."But it's so much fun to be picky about the $4.17 vs. $5.00 and $1.67 vs. $2.00 distinction! Yes, but the point would be the same if it were 42¢ and 17¢. |
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| (570636) | |
Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 18:44:04 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 17:52:46 2008. No, an opening to the airport property. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 18:44:34 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 18:00:28 2008. There is no E vs J issue, Chris.... |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Feb 16 18:49:36 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 18:44:34 2008. No Earl vs. Jessie? Evelyne vs. Justine? Earline vs. Jessica?8-) |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 18:49:51 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 15 17:25:40 2008. huh? why are those fares "unfair"? I'd think that in the am peak, mncr would rather get those trains out of gct asap in order to make another peak inbound run. instead, they allow them to run outbound in-service. So they charge a peak fare for that. makes sense to me. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 18:59:39 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Feb 15 18:24:16 2008. 2) Why isn't a fare charged to people who walk from Howard Beach via Conduit Avenue to Lefferts Boulevard to enter the station from the other end?Because it's not a ludicrous "Pedestrian Toll" as the conspiracy theorists claim. It's a cost of use of AirTrain from Howard beach. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 19:01:16 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 18:44:04 2008. And if that was still there, it would be used by fare evaders. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 19:02:24 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 18:44:34 2008. Who said there was? Why should A riders get a free ride, when E/J riders have to pay for the same AirTrain Service. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Feb 16 19:04:59 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 19:02:24 2008. Is E/J a kind of bird, like the Blue Jay? 8-) |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Feb 16 19:07:04 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 18:49:51 2008. I'd think that in the am peak, mncr would rather get those trains out of gct asap in order to make another peak inbound run. instead, they allow them to run outbound in-service. So they charge a peak fare for that. makes sense to me.Do LIRR and NJT have such a practice out of the far more congested NYP? |
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| (570655) | |
Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 19:07:38 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 15 17:32:03 2008. How will you get a $20 card with buying a $16.70 card? You need to by increments of $10 to get the extra $2. If you buy a $16.70 card, wouldn't you only get an extra $2 on the first $10 you buy, leaving you with an $18.70 card, which would only be good for 3 AirTrain rides, with $3.70 left over? You need to spend $20 to get the extra $4, leaving you with $24 card, and you use 4 AirTrain rides which would leave you $4 at the end of it on the card. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Feb 16 19:12:08 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 15 17:25:40 2008. Agreed. Nearly all those riders ought to gret a discount.How about a Reverse CityTicket? If you start in the city and go anti-peak direction, you get a discounted fare... |
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| (570662) | |
Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Feb 16 19:12:23 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Feb 16 19:12:08 2008. even outside city limits! |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Feb 16 20:22:09 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 18:59:39 2008. I suppose if you believed in distance based tolls, you could charge $2 for the Howard Beach Leg and $5 for the Jamaica leg.In a way, the uniform price makes the LIRR comparatively less expensive, in that $5 adds proportionately more to a subway trip cost than it does to the price of an LIRR ticket... |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 20:23:44 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 19:01:16 2008. Huh? What far evaders? There's no fare to evade! THE CIRCULATOR IS FREE. When will you understand that? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 20:23:58 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 19:01:16 2008. Huh? What fare evaders? There's no fare to evade! THE CIRCULATOR IS FREE. When will you understand that? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 20:24:39 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 19:02:24 2008. Did you not read my post yesterday, Chris? I explained it very clearly. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 20:25:43 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Feb 16 20:22:09 2008. What does the LIRR have to do with the fact that Jamaica is also a subway connection for the airport through the E and J lines? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 20:26:15 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Feb 16 19:07:04 2008. I don't know, do they? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 20:27:37 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 18:59:39 2008. Chris, AirTran is FREE from Howard Beach. It is a free on-airport circulator. Do you understand that? Everyone who doesn't come from the subway rides for free. |
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| (570720) | |
Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 20:28:27 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 19:07:38 2008. No, that's not how it works Chris. You get a 20% bonus on whatever you buy if you buy $10 or more at once. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 20:28:30 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 20:23:44 2008. The circulator is free, but not the AirTrain that terminates at Howard Beach. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Feb 16 20:29:09 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 20:25:43 2008. I thought about that after I posted.OK, so it's mode sensitive in terms of cost. Forget the distance part. My statement about Airtrain cost as % of LIRR fare still stands. |
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| (570725) | |
Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 20:30:27 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 20:24:39 2008. Yes, I didn't agree with that post unfortunately (I just can't keep responding to everything in this thread anymore, I am sorry I got involved in it again, against my better judgement).I have ridden AirTrain from there and Jamaica many times, and do know the distance between stations. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 20:36:28 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 20:28:30 2008. Yes it is free! That's part of the on-the-property-free-circulator! It doesn't go off the property! And EVERYONE riding it, except those that want to immediately exit the property through the fence, ride for free! So why do the people who want to immediately exit the property through the fence have to pay to ride the on-the-property-free-circulator? |
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| (570731) | |
Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 20:36:30 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 20:28:27 2008. Okay, I didn't realize that, I thought it was everytime you bought $10. I never buy cards for more than $10. I always buy them for $10.So you mean to tell me if I buy a $15 card, it will be worth $18? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 20:40:08 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 20:30:27 2008. Huh? You don't seem to understand. The Jamaica branch is an off the property rapid transit line that brings you from a downtown that is nowhere near the airport, to and onto airport property. Charging a fare for that makes total sense. The HB branch, however, is not "an off the property rapid transit line that brings you from a downtown that is nowhere near the airport, to and onto airport property". The (A) brings you TO the property, but not onto it. The pedestrian bridge, for which there is a $5 toll, brings you onto the property. And then you ride the wholly on the property circulator to the terminals. There is no reason to charge for that, and they don't! Instead, they charge a $5 toll to enter the property! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 20:41:50 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 20:36:30 2008. Yes. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Feb 16 20:47:02 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 20:26:15 2008. They don't. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Mr Mabstoa on Sat Feb 16 20:49:06 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 20:40:08 2008. Ok, I'll give you the damn $5 to ride the stupid thing OK!?Enough! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Feb 16 22:23:50 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 20:30:27 2008. Brian has always been upset that they are three exits out of Airtrain's Howard Beach. The seven dollar swipe to the subway, the five dollar swipe to Howard Beach's streets and the free exit to the parking lot, a.k.a. as the free exit to the streets via walking through the parking lot. All three share the same platform.IMHO, not necessarily fair but still useful. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 18:00:56 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 15 17:25:40 2008. I think a far more outrageous inequity is the morning peak fare on MNRR reverse commutes. That one also hits the poorest rail commuters in the NY area the hardest. It costs at least 100 times as much in unfair charges as the AirTrain situation.The peak fare during the outbound reverse peak only applies to riders boarding at GCT and 125 -- both of which have plenty of people boarding the trains who can very well afford to pay the steeper fares. Passengers boarding at stations in the Bronx pay an "Intermediate" fare regardless of the time of day and that fare appears quite reasonable. For example, a one-way from Fordham to Mamaroneck is $2.75, or $23.50 for a 10 trip ticket. My experience in riding is only with the New Haven line, but my observation is that the heaviest reverse-peak boarding is at Fordham for the local trains to Stamford. Often there are more passengers boarding there than there were getting on at GCT. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 18:20:41 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Feb 16 20:22:09 2008. I suppose if you believed in distance based tolls, you could charge $2 for the Howard Beach Leg and $5 for the Jamaica leg.You could do that. It wouldn't address Terp's concerns, though. The distance based fare probably wouldn't be that much of a difference, as the difference in the lengths of the two branches is not nearly as much as many think -- 1.5 miles from HB to Federal Circle as compared to 2.9 miles between Jamaica and Federal Circle. One would probably want to base distance fares on the trip to the terminals, however. The trip from Jamaica to Terminal 1 is 4.75 miles, as compared to 3.35 from Howard Beach. From Jamaica to Terminal 8 is 6.05 miles, as compared to 4.65 from HB. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 18:33:09 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 18:20:41 2008. That's what I remember well. The ride from Jamaica to the terminals is not much longer than from Howard Beach. It's only perhaps a few minutes at most more. It's about 10 minutes from Jamaica to the loop and almost 8-9 minutes from Howard Beach to the loop. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 18:36:25 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 15 12:22:47 2008. I think you would state your case better and perhaps find your answer if you approached the situation from a different angle (essentially leaving AirTrain out of the discussion).Your case is most crisply stated when you say that the entry to Airport property at Howard Beach is the only entry to Airport property that is not free. When you think about it from that perspective, there are three immediate thoughts as possible answers to "Why?" 1. Unadulterated greed. See also, "Because we can". 2. The Howard Beach (city council member / civic association / whatever else) wants or wanted it that way. Perhaps they didn't want their neighborhood to turn into a neighborhood of long-term parking facilities and airport hotels. Perhaps they didn't want people driving through what is mainly a residential neighborhood to create a "kiss and ride". This wasn't an issue during the bus shuttle days, as the entry from the streets of Howard Beach was not nearly as convenient as it is today (stairs as compared to elevators) and, quite frankly, the shuttle buses sucked. 3. Would the PA have built the second station for long term parking at HB if they weren't going to get an additional fare for having done so? Perhaps they would have simply terminated the line at Lefferts Blvd and used shuttle buses (as they do now) to access the far reaches of the parking lot. I have no idea why they chose to do things the way they did. Perhaps it's some combination of 1, 2 and 3 above -- or perhaps there are other reasons that I didn't think of. One thing is clear. You are not going to get the answer to Why? from the folks on this board. If anyone had the answer they would have posted it years ago. CG |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 18:38:26 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 18:33:09 2008. The (scheduled) time is actually exactly the same. Obviously, the Jamaica leg reaches higher speeds -- mitigating the difference in distance.One could argue that the current fare structures are "time-based". That still would not address Terp's issue. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 18:42:31 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 18:38:26 2008. Yeah, so why aren't we sticking to my issue? Oh right, because Ron added his always irrelevant 2 cents... |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 18:46:15 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 18:36:25 2008. Yes, very good points. In my personal uneducated opinion, they did it in order to increase revenue and they knew/expected they'd be able to do it without too much resistance since many people would/did take the mindset of Chris that there's nothing wrong with it. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 18:55:08 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 18:46:15 2008. I think it's moreso that it would create an uneven balance of people using the "free" A over the E to access Airtrain. I still feel what's good for one subway line is good for the other. I don't feel the A should be free while the E is paid. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 18:58:09 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 17 18:46:15 2008. they did it in order to increase revenue and they knew/expected they'd be able to do it without too much resistance since many people would/did take the mindset of Chris that there's nothing wrong with it.The ONLY place I have EVER seen ANYONE making a fuss out of this is by about 5 people here. I have NEVER seen one article trying to point out this "supposed" injustice. Nada one. Nothing. I don't know why if no one seems to think it's a big deal that it is a big deal. Most people using it don't seem to have a problem with it, except for about 5 people here at SubChat. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:00:25 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 18:38:26 2008. One could argue that the current fare structures are "time-based". That still would not address Terp's issue.I have NEVER seen anyone else (outside of about 5 people at SubChat) have an issue with this. No where, no place. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:08:15 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 18:36:25 2008. I agree with your points.And I agree it may be a combination of all three VALID reasons. AirTrain is a MAJOR improvement over what was there (YES, the shuttle bus SUCKED big time). If it was a choice of having just the AirTrain from Jamaica at $5, and leaving out completely the Howard Beach leg because they weren't getting $5, which is probably a MAJOR reason for the set up, and instead just have Jamaica and a bus to Federal Circle, it would be a far inferior system. Nothing is going to change my mind on this. The $5 at HB is way better than what was once there, and the two leg AirTrain system is far superior to the "free" shuttle bus there before. AirTrain would NOT be a good system if it only included the Jamaica leg and forgone the Howard Beach leg if they weren't getting the $5 on it. And everyone is happy with the set up, use it often so it seems. And if there are more than just the 5 people at SubChat that don't let go of the shittle bus that was once there, for any of those people, there's the Q10. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Sun Feb 17 19:08:27 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 18:58:09 2008. The ONLY place I have EVER seen ANYONE making a fuss out of this is by about 5 people here. I have NEVER seen one article trying to point out this "supposed" injustice. Nada one. Nothing.I don't know why if no one seems to think it's a big deal that it is a big deal. Most people using it don't seem to have a problem with it, except for about 5 people here at SubChat. I agree. That is why I suspect the reason has more to do with #'s 2 and 3 than Terp suspects. |
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