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| Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains (510960) | |
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| (511078) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 11:47:44 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Nov 3 11:46:44 2007. Exactly. and regardless of what the MTA has renamed the brand name, it is still a rapid transit line. |
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| (511079) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 11:50:10 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by SLRT on Sat Nov 3 11:44:19 2007. One could say that about any rail project. It's always about will (and cost). I think the latter will sink any realistic subway connections to SI. |
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| (511080) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Nov 3 11:50:40 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 11:38:54 2007. I agree, the PATH runs every 3-6 minutes during the peak rush hour while the minimum for the SIR during peak rush hours is 15 minutes. And during midday, the PATH runs every 8-10 minutes while the SIR hops right back to 30 minute headways. |
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| (511081) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by 9 local on Sat Nov 3 11:50:55 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 11:47:32 2007. the G and the J at points.the LA Metro Red Line at points, as well. and SIRT runs at much better headways in the rush hours, just as those other subway lines do. |
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| (511082) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat Nov 3 11:50:56 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 3 11:13:06 2007. Don't forget also that the SIRT infrastructure is built to carry freight cars and locomotives, so the M-7s should be a problem. |
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| (511083) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Dan on Sat Nov 3 11:51:29 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 11:39:58 2007. We'll never see any M7 suburban commuter type equipment on the SIR. If posted rumors are true then a 75-foot "R-160SI" or whatever is a possibility |
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| (511084) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 11:51:44 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Nov 3 11:50:40 2007. The only thing about it that makes it seem like a rapid transit line is it's fare structure. |
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| (511085) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 3 11:52:28 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Nov 3 11:50:40 2007. Not much point in running trains when there is no boat available to receive the passengers, eh?ROAR |
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| (511086) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Easy on Sat Nov 3 11:52:57 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 11:47:32 2007. It's a commuter line in all but name.And price? |
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| (511087) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 11:53:46 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Dan on Sat Nov 3 11:51:29 2007. I know. We're discussing the feasibility of doing so. |
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| (511088) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat Nov 3 11:53:52 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 11:50:10 2007. If there were a big push on Staten Island, and the City had the reasonable fear that the island might secede, which became a real possibility 15 years ago, it could become a priority.Staten Island seceding could have shift power in the state. |
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| (511089) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Nov 3 11:54:18 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by 9 local on Sat Nov 3 11:50:55 2007. 15 minute headways is not much better.When the (G) and (J) are running every 20 minutes (that's the maximum headway for those lines), the SIRT is running 2-car trains with 1 hour headways. |
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| (511090) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 11:54:54 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Easy on Sat Nov 3 11:52:57 2007. No, it's fare structure is rapid-transit like. I addressed that elsewhere. Operationally, it's more like a suburban commuter line. |
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| (511091) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 3 11:55:52 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by SLRT on Sat Nov 3 11:53:52 2007. I do not thing that NYC worries about SI seceding from the state.More power to them, and don't let the door hit you on the way out. ROAR |
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| (511092) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Nov 3 11:58:00 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 3 11:52:28 2007. You proved my point then! That's why it's a basically a commuter rail line that dumps you off at a ferry.The day that one can hop on a train at Eltingville and ride it all the way to Lower Manhattan, then I would definitely consider the SIR a rapid transit line. |
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| (511093) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by 9 local on Sat Nov 3 12:01:37 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Nov 3 11:58:00 2007. yet it is not a commuter rail line because it doesn't go from the suburbs into the city. it just goes from the suburbs (yes, richmond county is a suburb) to the ferry that TAKES you into the city that is still a half hour away. it is basically its own animal, more like the isle of wight line in england than anything else. |
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| (511094) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat Nov 3 12:03:05 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Nov 3 11:15:55 2007. I believe it was. Things like grab irons and other FRA mandated items were removed when the connection to the "national railroad system" was removed several years ago.It was discussed on SubTalk, check the archives. |
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| (511095) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Sat Nov 3 12:03:29 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 11:43:49 2007. Very, very True Chris.But I was just wondering about just the physical construction of this never to be seen project. Jimmymc25 |
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| (511096) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sat Nov 3 12:04:02 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 3 11:55:52 2007. NYC wishes they would secede, Satan Island, bunch of whining crybabys. |
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| (511097) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 12:06:01 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 11:51:44 2007. Fare Structure, Equipment, Line structure, And... SCHEDULE!!!Look at commuter rail schedules then look at SIRT. SIRT is a hell of a lot more like a rapid transit line when compared to a commuter line. |
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| (511098) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by 9 local on Sat Nov 3 12:06:42 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 12:06:01 2007. as SIRT has regular overnight service |
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| (511099) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sat Nov 3 12:07:26 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 10:59:53 2007. Nope |
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| (511100) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sat Nov 3 12:07:57 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 11:47:44 2007. Nope |
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| (511101) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sat Nov 3 12:09:18 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 12:06:01 2007. Nope |
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| (511103) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 12:11:04 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Nov 3 11:54:18 2007. When the A is running 18 minute headways the SIRT is running 30 Functionally that isnt a big difference(2TPH vs 3TPH). Most commuter rail is either hourly during off peak, or does not run at all. SIRT schedules arent atypical of outer branches of rapid transit. |
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| (511105) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Nov 3 12:12:57 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sat Nov 3 12:04:02 2007. You're still at it again? Staten Island has every right to complain about whatever as does the rest of the boroughs. Give that "Satan Island" thing a rest already. |
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| (511108) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Nov 3 12:16:54 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 12:06:01 2007. The line on average runs every 15, 30 and 60 minutes, if you want to consider that rapid..be my guess. |
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| (511110) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Nov 3 12:20:57 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 11:47:44 2007. In terms of function, you've got a hard sell to make on the rapid transit part of the term. Or if you've got an easy sell - or so you say - there are a bunch of commuter lines in our area that you would hold are in fact rapid transit lines. Is that your contention? |
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| (511113) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by MJF on Sat Nov 3 12:23:40 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 11:36:08 2007. Technically they're not even called Staten Island RAPID TRANSIT anymore. It's Staten Island RAILWAY. But that's all semantics anyway. But the fact remains that they are currently subject to FRA. |
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| (511114) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by MJF on Sat Nov 3 12:26:03 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sat Nov 3 11:45:56 2007. Nope. It's MTA Staten Island Railway. Officially. And it is a Class 1 railroad. |
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| (511115) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 12:28:21 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Nov 3 12:16:54 2007. No it doesnt. During the day it runs every 30 minutes. Most commuter rail runs at 1 hour headways or higher. Overnight SIRT runs at 1 hour headways. Not only do most commuter rail lines not run that frequently, but most RAPID TRANSIT lines do not run so frequently! |
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| (511116) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 12:29:55 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Nov 3 12:20:57 2007. Functionally, yes, many of our commuter rail lines have service that is run on a rapid transit like schedule on rapid transit like lines. The only thing that makes the Babylon line a commuter line is its fare structure and length! |
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| (511117) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sat Nov 3 12:30:14 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Nov 3 12:12:57 2007. Nope, it will always be "Satan Island" to me and nothing will ever change that. If for no other reason than that it irritates you so much. |
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| (511120) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by MJF on Sat Nov 3 12:31:59 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat Nov 3 12:03:05 2007. I think the grab irons were removed from the side doors but not from the sides of the bulkhead. |
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| (511122) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Nov 3 12:35:57 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 11:38:54 2007. The SIR is really more like the PATH than a commuter line like the LIRR.1) Like the PATH the riders pay a fixed fare regardless of distance, and use electronic turnstyles to enter the main station. While PATH sations have electronic turnstyles at every station. LIRR stations do not have turnstyles, but conductors on the trains to collect the fares. The SIR ended the practice of collecting fares on the trains many many years ago. While there were zoned fares on the SIR that practice ended in the long ago distant past that one has to look it up in the history books. Except for the main SIR terminal, none of the stations have ticket offices, and few have waiting rooms. 2) Like the PATH, in general the trains run the full length of their route with established routes and terminals. During the rush hours some SIR trains run express (on a two-track line) to/from the Great Kills station, while some rush hour local trains begin and end their runs there. Otherwise all SIR trains run the length of the route. On the LIRR, the trains run the distance that they are told/scheduled for, even it is not the complete distance of the trackage. 3) Like the PATH and LIRR - the wait between trains are 30 and 60 minutes during weekends and nights. Unlike the PATH, during the day the wait between trains is 30 minutes. And the SIR considers rush hour to consist of trains at 15 and 20 minutes apart. 4) Like the PATH, the SIR uses rapid transit - subway type cars with multiple doors per car. There is no effort to provide seats for the riders or to "segregate" cars for certain purposes or stations. Nor are their smoking cars or bar cars. All unlike the LIRR which has bar cars, and often reserves certain cars for certain stations. I believe that at one time there were smoking cars on the LIRR - but someone I'm sure will correct me. 5) Like the PATH, the SIR uses rapid transit - subway cars of a standard length, there are generally few effots at coupling cars or uncoupling cars for particular trips. On the LIRR, the length of a train can change depending upon passenger load, time of day, etc. 6) Like the PATH, the SIR uses rapid transit - subway cars uses the third rail to draw power. On the LIRR while most trains are electric, some trains consist of diesel engines that can not enter underwater tunnels - I'm told. 7) Like the LIRR, the SIR uses a train schedule where one is advised to consult before waiting 30 or 60 minutes at a station. Luckily now the schedules are posted along the station entrances on the SIR, before it was a crap-shot when it came to knowing when the train would arrive. Not everyone carries a train schedule with them. 8) The SIR operating unit was moved to the New York City Transit division of the MTA, while communter railroads such as the LIRR and Metro-North remained in the commuter division. The Staten Island Ferry could be seen as the linkage between the SIR and the city's subways, even though the ferry is operated by the city's DOT. 9) Staten Island residents, the prime users of the SIR, are New York City residents. While it seems that some think of Staten Island as a separate planet, it is not a self-governing self taxing unit likes many of the towns and cities that both the PATH and LIRR serve. When Staten Island joined with the other boroughs to create the City of Greater New York in 1898, all of its local towns and villages were no longer self-governing. Today while some want to still call those places on Staten Island "towns and villages" they are not. Just in the same way that neither Harlem, Long Island City, Flushing, Bay Ridge, Yorktown, or Flatbush -- are not considered to be self-governing towns or villages. 10) As I understand it both the PATH and the SIR were connected to the national railroad grid, but over time thoses connections were severed - such that now each runs its own operations. Mike |
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| (511123) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sat Nov 3 12:36:00 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by MJF on Sat Nov 3 12:26:03 2007. Nope, all MTA names are still their original names, internally |
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| (511125) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Nov 3 13:01:25 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 12:29:55 2007. The only thing that makes the Babylon line a commuter line is its fare structure and length!Then we have a genuine disagreement. While I'm unsure whether this dichotomy between commuter line and rapid transit line is a useful one at all - e.g., at Woodside, I can use a commuter line as a rapid transit line - I do think it's sensible to say that SIR is more like system X and less like system Y based on frequency of service through the day. |
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| (511127) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Nov 3 13:04:26 2007, in response to Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Railman718 on Sat Nov 3 08:37:29 2007. So much for Field Shunting. |
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| (511132) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by MJF on Sat Nov 3 13:37:15 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sat Nov 3 12:36:00 2007. Nope. All letterheads, stationery, memorandae, notices, etc. contain the current agency names. |
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| (511135) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 14:01:00 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 12:06:01 2007. No, the schedule is a lot like that of the Port Washington branch of the LIRR south of Great Neck. It's structure is no different than the LIRR. |
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| (511137) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 14:02:19 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Sat Nov 3 12:16:54 2007. The Babylon branch gets better off-peak service than this "rapid transit" line. |
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| (511140) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 14:06:11 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 12:28:21 2007. Some do. Babylon, Port Washington, etc. If the LIRR had capacity, the Ronkonkoma line would run off-peak trains every 30 minutes. Stamford-bound New Haven locals run every 30 minutes during off peak times. However, the Port Washington comparison is still the one which comes the closest. If the SIR is a rapid transit line, so is the Port Washington. |
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| (511141) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 14:09:02 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 3 11:55:52 2007. Agreed. It's in SI's interests to tie themselves more closely to New Jersey, and SI's status is basically irrelevant to the state's interests. Once they closed the landfill, SI became useless to the city. It's location makes it logical to be part of NJ, not NY. Let's not forget, the only reason SI is part of NY is as a result of a boat race. |
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| (511142) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 14:10:55 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 12:11:04 2007. Again, compare the SIR to the Port Washington or Babylon branch schedules. Except for overnights, they aren't all that different. |
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| (511143) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by monorail on Sat Nov 3 14:11:06 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sat Nov 3 12:30:14 2007. 'it will always be "Satan Island" to me'do you have a 'devil of a time' getting there? |
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| (511144) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Sat Nov 3 14:11:52 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by SLRT on Sat Nov 3 11:50:56 2007. Don't forget also that the SIRT infrastructure is built to carry freight cars and locomotives, so the M-7s should be a problem.According to the SIR employee who gave the ERA a guided tour of Clifton Shops months back tells me SIR would love to get M-7s but there is a clearance problem with steel columns at St. George. I believe M-7s would be overkill if there were no clearance issues. Bill "Newkirk" |
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| (511146) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 14:15:28 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Michael549 on Sat Nov 3 12:35:57 2007. Fair comparisons. I still think the SIR has more in common with the LIRR than it does with the rest of the subway system, even if it has a fixed fare and subway-style rolling stock. BTW, I believe PATH is still physically connected to the NEC near Newark, it operates on an FRA waiver which allows it exist and operate under the rules of a rapid transit line anyway. |
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| (511147) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 14:16:53 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by SLRT on Sat Nov 3 11:41:59 2007. Did the city ever return the cars they purchased from the SIRT in the late 50's for the BMT? |
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| (511150) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by R30A on Sat Nov 3 14:20:10 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 14:01:00 2007. The Port Washington branch south of great neck is a lot like a rapid transit line. |
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| (511152) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Nov 3 14:21:06 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway to get New Trains, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Nov 3 14:01:00 2007. Also unlike some sections of the LIRR which have single tracks for trains in both directions - the SIR is double tracked from end to end. As I understand it generally, each track is used for one direction, where there is little "wrong railing" operations with passengers.(I am not completely sure about the morning rush hours, I read a forum report about "wrong rail operations" on the SIR but I have not seen it in practice. There does not seem to be large time gaps in the current schedule for such operations. The schedule makes it appear that trains travel in both directions continously without gaps. Most of my own trips on SIR are non-peak - so I have no direct evidence of wrong-rail operations. So while I do not think they exist, I await information from those more in the know.) Mike |
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