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| Re: 76st what happened? (1030985) | |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 23:48:52 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by DHeese810 on Sun Feb 6 23:36:29 2011. Yep ... merely means that the power levels are lower than is used for deeper measurement devices. There are high power ones that can see down half a mile for oil exploration. Certainly don't need THAT! :)But I'm sure it's just the limitation of the batteries it runs on - you want to use as few watts as possible and the further you need to drive the signal, the more power you need. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Mon Feb 7 00:07:44 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Jeff H. on Sun Feb 6 22:26:07 2011. I agree. There had to be contracts and funding for any work along Pitkin including extending the street straight through, building water mains and sewers, and any subway construction. There would also have been land acquisition when Pitkin was extended. We should be able to locate these in the records of the predecessor agencies to DEP and DOT, which could be at DEP, DOT, the Department of Design and Construction, which took over construction responsibilities from DOT within the past 10 or 15 years, or at the Municipal Archives. I am also pretty sure that the land acquisition/condemnation for the Pitkin extension would have been approved by the City Council and the Board of Estimate. There should also be records of the acquisition under the block and lots that were taken, if we could identify them. If we knew when Pitkin was extended--someone must have access to street maps from between 1924 and 1951, we would know where to start. If it took place before the line to 76th Street was planned, there would be no point in looking into the details of the extension and could focus only on when the water mains and sewers were built. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 7 00:19:05 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by handbrake on Sun Feb 6 20:31:19 2011. Well obviously, if the station was used, it wouldn't be for a fourth route, but instead, the C train would terminate there instead of Euclid. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by monorail on Mon Feb 7 01:17:15 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by handbrake on Sun Feb 6 23:09:56 2011. "Trains operate on any track, in any direction, and at any time."always looked in both directions before crossing track 2 between Grand Central and Times Sq..... |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by monorail on Mon Feb 7 01:18:48 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 22:24:44 2011. ' that there would at least have been a final report on "site closed." 'just like there is/was for sections of tunnels no one knew was there until they were found.... |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by DHeese810 on Mon Feb 7 01:26:49 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 22:24:44 2011. http://ltvsquad.com/Locations/urbanexploration.php?ID=61LTV squad did another page on the area, not much more detail, but its still the area. -Dan |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by DHeese810 on Mon Feb 7 01:31:34 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 22:24:44 2011. http://ltvsquad.com/Locations/urbanexploration.php?ID=61LTV squad did another page on the area, not much more detail, but its still the area. -Dan |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 01:31:49 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by monorail on Mon Feb 7 01:18:48 2011. Ya gotta love it when paperwork disappears. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by monorail on Mon Feb 7 01:32:30 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by DHeese810 on Mon Feb 7 01:26:49 2011. a while back, a certain Console Dispatcher(or Supt.), went down to that area with a large flashlight(2 million candlepower or something like that) and took numerous photos! Have yet to see them, perhaps Mark Wolo______, can post the photos here.... |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 01:34:56 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by DHeese810 on Mon Feb 7 01:26:49 2011. Yep ... saw that during the last shitstorm on the topic. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 01:35:41 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by monorail on Mon Feb 7 01:32:30 2011. I think he gave up on us a LONG time ago. :( |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 03:36:37 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by handbrake on Sun Feb 6 20:31:19 2011. By now, most of you should realize that the extension of the IND over the Fulton St el and the subway continuing out Pitkin were intended to coexist. It was not an either or situation but a both and situation. I have mentioned this time and again and the photos of the model board at Euclid and the plans also indicate this. How many times do you people out there have to be told this? The original plans called for existing BMT signaling to be used east (railroad south) of the 80/Hudson St interlocking and the subway portion out Pitkin was to connect with the reclaimed LIRR ROW in the vicinity of Aqueduct Race Track. Read this carefully and commit it to memory. THE LINE TO LEFFERTS VIA THE FORMER BMT EL AND THE SUBWAY OUT PITKIN WERE BOTH SUPPOSED TO BE BUILT. IT WAS NEVER A CASE OF THE SUBWAY BEING BUILT ONLY IF THE EL WAS NOT TAKEN OVER. IT WAS A CASE OF THE EL TO LEFFERTS AND THE PITKIN SUBWAY TO THE ROCKAWAYS!!!!!!!!!! |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 03:45:48 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Jeff H. on Sun Feb 6 19:39:54 2011. From what I was told by people who worked flagging in the area just prior to 1956 when the IND was connected to the Fulton El, there was a temporary wooden wall at the end of the "mainline" IND tracks that was replaced around the time Grant was built with the concrete wall that exists there today. By the time that George and I got there in 1962, the concrete wall was already in place. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 03:51:26 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 23:24:40 2011. I wouldn't bet on lower steel dust levels. In 1970, George Abere and I walked the Roosevelt Av upper level both on the platform and the trackways. When I got home later, I was pouring steel dust out of my shoes. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 04:07:30 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 22:24:44 2011. As a similar aside to this topic, most of us know that the BMT 4 Av Subway S/O 59/4 was built under the west side of 4 Av and would have been the S/B lcl and express tracks of a 4 track subway should the need arise. The 2 trackways can be seen where the subway crosses over the NYCRR ROW near 65 St and the roadbeds for the N/B tracks can be seen from the S/B platforms at Bay Ridge Av and 77 St stations. Before the platform extensions of 1969, spaces for at least one additional track east of the N/B track were visible at the ends of those stations. In addition, along the east wall of the subway there are what appear to be safety niches that are bricked up. They were easier to see in the days of the RFWs and until the recent retiling of 86 St were visible from the 86 St platform. Some of the old timers would tell stories about the extra tunnel space extending all the way from around 65 St to the S/E of 86 St station. Many years ago I checked a blueprint of the 4 Av Subway in the blueprint room that was in the basement of 370 Jay St and they showed no record of ant space being constructed for the additional tracks S/O the 65 St bridge. However, according the a PSC annual rept circa 1915, Bkln Edison was requested to build its circuit breaker chamber sin the are as sections of subway tunnel should they be needed at a future date. Since the additional track spaces along the route were not built as an actual p;art of the dual contract construction, there is no record of them since as far as the BRT/BMT and their successors, the additional tunnel sections were never built. A similar situation could very well exist at 76 St depending on the circumstances of the original construction and keep in mind the sections of tunnel on 4 Av Bkln are just as close if not closer to the actual subway infrastructure as 76 St would be. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 04:23:11 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 03:51:26 2011. Heh. But we did that back then ANYWAY ... no matter where you went, your whites weren't. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 04:31:11 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 04:23:11 2011. True, but in normal areas I never accumulated that much steel dust. When walking the trackbed at Roosevelt UL, it felt like I was walking through sand on a beach. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 04:59:35 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 04:07:30 2011. Never saw that myself aside from the "overpass" part, but sure have heard plenty about that too. To add to the fun, I worked for the state up here for 12+ years and saw plenty of documents vanish over the years when I encountered telecomms that didn't exist on paper. It's amazing what can happen when something goes wrong and an agency decides to make the paperwork go away to resolve the issues of questions being raised. :)Sorta like that number plate swapping that didn't get documented. Heh. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 05:00:31 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 04:31:11 2011. Actually with the breezes and such, that doesn't surprise me. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Feb 7 05:36:24 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Feb 5 19:22:55 2011. About the legalities - would permits or the like be necessary? For instance, how fast does that sled have to go to do its imaging, and will it affect traffic? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 05:57:38 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by 3-9 on Mon Feb 7 05:36:24 2011. As clumsy as it would be, you can run it at normal street-crossing walking speed. If you're worried about cops busting balls, fix it up to look like a baby stroller. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Feb 7 10:28:41 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 11:28:03 2011. As a 76er, I believe that the tunnel and station shell are there, nothing more. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Mon Feb 7 13:08:28 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by handbrake on Sun Feb 6 23:09:56 2011. Just run your barehands down the walls.this pocket is off the yard leads to the EL & the info I got is that it was used from 1948 t0 1952. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Mon Feb 7 13:49:50 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 6 23:48:52 2011. Are any of you guys able to operate this GPR system ? I think it involves a laptop computer and a special program to run this equipment is there any special training involved ? Karl M |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 16:42:27 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Feb 7 10:28:41 2011. Make that only PART of a station shell, one side more than the other, and welcome to my church. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 16:57:45 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Mon Feb 7 13:49:50 2011. You'd want to have someone familiar with the particular equipment along with it, but it's not hard to do - they all come with manuals as to how to set it up, how to select frequency and power and the display is on a laptop attached to the unit.The reason why you want someone familiar with the equipment is for the proper interpretation of what is displayed since you're going to be looking at reflected waves. The image is not a "photograph" of what's below, it's more like interpreting a radar screen of echoes back up from what's down there and that requires some awareness of what to expect so as to properly guess at what is being seen on the display. I would imagine that we would have a floor, a roof and plenty of rebar. If there's nothing down there, we'll only see the pipework below the street and nothing below that "infrastructure." Here's what we would expect to see on the display somewhere between 15 and 40 feet down: 
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Feb 7 17:19:07 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Feb 7 10:28:41 2011. I was told that in 1964& 2002.I have never posted anything to the contrary. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 7 17:38:00 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 6 17:25:31 2011. And it's not just this thread! This is the THIRD mega-thread on this topic over the last two weeks. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 17:56:41 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 7 17:38:00 2011. Well yeah ... what else is there to talk about now?
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 7 18:22:48 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 17:56:41 2011. Hahaha! Yeah, that June service change killed thousands of posts on the "Why can't there be an M/V Combo" fantasy.... :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 19:11:59 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 17:56:41 2011. Since the M/V combo eventually DID happen, can verifiable proff of the existence of the 76 St shell be far behind? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 19:20:01 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by TUNNELRAT on Mon Feb 7 13:08:28 2011. Since its only documentable use is till 1952, I'm surprised that the rails signals and stop arms were there as late as 1962 after the switches had been removed. One would think that MOW would have removed at least the signal equipment for use elsewhere as needed. What is even more interesting is why the signals near the bulkhead on the "mainline" associated with 76 St were not removed for the same purpose. It's almost as if they were left there purposely to assist in providing some circumstantial evidence of the existence of the station shell. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Mon Feb 7 19:31:23 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 16:57:45 2011. Thanks, I was wondering you were going to do that. Karl M |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by fisk ave jim on Mon Feb 7 19:49:27 2011, in response to 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Jan 28 13:58:35 2011. Since I've only been around here for about a year & change, is this possibly the longest thread in that space in time or, ever here for that matter ?? Just wonderin.. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 19:49:46 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 7 18:22:48 2011. I say we work on getting the D and the 4 combined now. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 19:50:16 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 19:11:59 2011. And you wonder why I keep showing up here with hat in hand? :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 19:53:24 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Mon Feb 7 19:31:23 2011. Be happy to come down and wheel that bad boy back and forth if someone can cover the $450 for the two of us to come down and play dodgeball with the local traffic. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 19:59:52 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by fisk ave jim on Mon Feb 7 19:49:27 2011. I think there have been longer ones. Unfortunately, many of the posts are personal attacks or "flame wars" by various posters against each other and rather than contribute to an intelligent exchange of facts and/or opinions, serve only to clutter and prolong the threads. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 20:07:34 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 19:59:52 2011. What separates this one from all the others is that after the first day, most threads are done except for the dragonfire. Once a typical thread gets beyond about 40 posts, there's no point in even looking anymore. This one continues to bring in new stuff and that's downright amazing. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by fisk ave jim on Mon Feb 7 20:15:00 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 19:59:52 2011. Yeah, I've seen some of those flame wars from time to time & just sat back & watched. Some folks here talk pretty big behind a keyboard. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Feb 7 20:16:57 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 20:07:34 2011. Yes, this one went rather in the opposite direction. It started off silly and got better. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 20:47:55 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Feb 7 20:16:57 2011. Screw global warming, 2012 is coming! :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Feb 7 22:22:35 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Feb 7 20:16:57 2011. Apart from a bit of minor sniping here and there, I was amazed at the amount of useful information in this particular thread. I dare say one could save the entire discussion (if only this anemic browser-based interface had an easy way to do that) and have a complete recap of everything that is known about 76 St. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by handbrake on Mon Feb 7 22:59:50 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 03:51:26 2011. I passed through the two track Roosevelt station now used by MoW for storage & tool crib. yes its dusty and with plenty of steel dust on the walls. The tunnel end of A1-A4 doesn't see as much traffic as the Queens main line running below upper Roosevelt station. My estimate was based on the photos off the web site provided earlier in this chat. Next time I am at Euclid I'll leave some time for a look at the tunnel by the wall. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by handbrake on Mon Feb 7 23:05:47 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 04:31:11 2011. The IRT LEX on the north bound 4 track as it turns into Grand Central next to the Tower is as sooty as an operating coal mine. dark colored clothes are the only mode to be in when traversing through that area. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by handbrake on Mon Feb 7 23:47:01 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 04:07:30 2011. I was at 77th Street recently and took note of the concave subway wall and bricked up niches, as 86th Street, that represents the N/B express track (Track 4) on a section of platform that is physical in area of the 1969 extension located on the N/B S/E of the station. Clearly allot of digging went on for something that was not needed at the time.Station extensions are also easily identified by low horizontal I beams that underpin vertical wall soldier columns spaced typically five feet apart, and then again underpinned by vertical I beam columns spaced about fifteen feet apart. Construction is typically rolled single piece steel I beams (IND style), as opposed to a rivet assembled I Beam common to most IRT & BMT tunnel construction. As an off topic aside. The original 4th Avenue subway station stairway to the street above at the 59th Street station were originally located in the middle of 4th Avenue based on observations of an area now used as a communications room. The present fare control area on the 60th street end of the station was enlarged when the now present stairwells were built onto the sidewalks. Does anyone have photos taken of 4th Avenue at that vicinity that date from around 1915 showing a station entrance, and a narrower 4th Avenue roadway? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 8 00:20:04 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 19:11:59 2011. That would probably be SubChat's Waterloo. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Tue Feb 8 00:28:13 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Feb 7 20:07:34 2011. In all of my time on this board, I generally visit SubChat the least. This is by far my favorite thread all time on any of the discussion forums here. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Feb 8 00:44:48 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Tue Feb 8 00:28:13 2011. It IS nice to escape the wriggling and howling of the "you suck" threads. :)... and the 76th Street thing is interesting mainly because of the absolute lack of anything one way or the other. Many projects have been abandoned, but there's documentation one way or the other for all of them. Except for THIS one. Clearly documentation has vanished. But WHY? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Tue Feb 8 00:48:38 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Feb 8 00:44:48 2011. I believe that the documentation vanishing and the erection of a cinder block as opposed to solid concrete walls, in my opinion, lead to a higher degree of credibility that SOMETHING is over there that SOMEONE doesn't want people to know about.What that SOMETHING is, I guess we'll never know. |
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