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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by JohnL on Tue Jan 25 21:48:58 2005, in response to People abroad not liking us, posted by brooklynQB on Tue Jan 25 20:38:44 2005. I don’t know about the rest of the world, but I know 4 Britons who think the United States is currently a joke: my sisters. They think Tony Blair is an idiot for following Bush into Iraq.Thomas Friedman said much the same thing in a NY Times Op-Ed piece on January 20th. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 25 22:44:44 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by JohnL on Tue Jan 25 21:48:58 2005. Scary proposition, this.To be frank, this goes back some years. I remember visiting the British Isles and seeing posters depicting Ronald Reagan in an Uncle Sam outfit shooting at Arabs, around the time "Irangate" hit the news. And there are always the jingoistic elements in every country, no matter what. Isolationism the best policy? Some have argued that it got us dragged into two World Wars, but perhaps not, as the country was not too isolationist in foreign policy but "laissez-faire" during those times—less so than the period between WWI and WWII, what with Wilson's "League of Nations" experiment. Of course, there have always been expansionist elements in the USA (recall "Manifest Destiny") and nobody likes an empire . . . Of course, being in debt to the trillions to nations whose foreign policies are themselves mercurial is a very tenuous position to be in. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by M15 to South Ferry on Wed Jan 26 00:36:36 2005, in response to People abroad not liking us, posted by brooklynQB on Tue Jan 25 20:38:44 2005. I think it is obvious they care only for themselves and would rather see the US fall so they would be their own superpowers especially China and Russia.Also breaking up a sweet Oil for Food contract they used to enjoy under Sadam wouldn't you be ticked off losing those extra $ billions? |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by JohnL on Wed Jan 26 00:57:26 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by M15 to South Ferry on Wed Jan 26 00:36:36 2005. I think it is obvious they care only for themselves and would rather see the US fall so they would be their own superpowers especially China and Russia.Also breaking up a sweet Oil for Food contract they used to enjoy under Sadam wouldn't you be ticked off losing those extra $ billions? Sorry, I don’t think that one is going to fly. I cannot say anything about China and Russia, but the feeling in Britain is that Bush was stupid to get involved in Iraq and/or had a personal agenda. As for breaking up the Oil for Food, I’m sure that some people profited from it (including it seems some in the US) but the average Briton made nothing. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Wed Jan 26 01:29:05 2005, in response to People abroad not liking us, posted by brooklynQB on Tue Jan 25 20:38:44 2005. China has economic levers upon us because we've moved our industry to them. Russia through Glasnost has made major economic US investments.Europe??? The Frech cried when German Wehrmacht entered Paris and cride when they left...DeGaulle pulled out of NATO leaving a lot of little associations Like BENELUX. Decades ago, the motion picture, ' The Ugly American', showed us what we look like...benevolent dictators. They all hate our guts...France is Nazi, Britain should be a free and independent German Republic, India was a Japanese Ally, the Dutch enslaved in SouthEast Asia, French lost out in VietNam, Belgium tortured Congo and got ass-kicked..all well documented history. Now we're stuck in Persia trying to make everyone happy through democracy...Afghanistan needs a new king, Iran needs a shah. Iraq needs a mufti and Turkey remains confused We can fix our image by kicking out the United Nations and re-establishing the League of Nations in the Hague. I remember Arafat walking up to the podium wearing a 0.38 revolver in the UN...the very same organisation that wants to disarm US citizens and had posted its monitors during our presidential election. We don't have to shift our foreign policy...just kick em the heck out off US soil and let 'em fend for themselves. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by monorail on Wed Jan 26 03:46:49 2005, in response to People abroad not liking us, posted by brooklynQB on Tue Jan 25 20:38:44 2005. They don't like railfans?????????????????????? |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Mark Michalovic on Wed Jan 26 09:38:44 2005, in response to People abroad not liking us, posted by brooklynQB on Tue Jan 25 20:38:44 2005. When I was in Honduras this summer I rode on an old school bus that the driver had decorated elaborately. The nose had the Start and Stripes waving proudly painted on it. On the hood was a portrait of Che Gueverra. While this seemed contradictory at first glance, I think it says a lot about attitudes about the U.S. overseas. Many admire our ideals of freedom and would love to see them spread. At the same time, they don't necessarily want us to rule over them, either. (How could they, if they love freedom?)Mark |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Wed Jan 26 11:06:02 2005, in response to People abroad not liking us, posted by brooklynQB on Tue Jan 25 20:38:44 2005. How should we go about fixing our image other than shifting our foriegn policy?Getting a better PR man would be a good start. Bush deserves the Razzie for Worst Actor. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Mark Michalovic on Wed Jan 26 11:19:45 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Rail Blue on Wed Jan 26 11:06:02 2005. I've never been a fan of Bush, but I'm not sure it's fair to nominate him for a Razzie since he wasn't trying to be in a movie, rather news footage of him was used in Farenheit 911. I'm not sure that counts in my book.Mark |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by S33 Hauppage on Wed Jan 26 13:40:03 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Mark Michalovic on Wed Jan 26 09:38:44 2005. Che Guevarra is seen as a hero in Latin America, although he only helped bring communism to one country (although Allende, a communist, was popularly elected in Chile in a multiparty election). His death at 39 only intensifies his legacy. (It should also be noted that Guevarra's legend is intensified by, as a rebel with Castro, toppling a United States-supported dictatorship.) Slightly off that topic, American resentment was present in Honduras, Nicaragua, and Chile (where American-supported dictators were propped up into power for many years).Che Guevarra---a potential Simon Bolivar in terms of liberating Latin America from American influence cut down so young? That I leave open for debate. Also, about those buses in Honduras, in Panama (I was there during the late spring last year), the buses (often owner-operated) are also just as colorfully decorated, many ex-school buses, and some Scania and Hyundai buses. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Mark Michalovic on Wed Jan 26 14:37:08 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by S33 Hauppage on Wed Jan 26 13:40:03 2005. This bus actually had the names of the school children who were assigned to its seats still posted on note cards over the seats from the days when it was a school bus in the United States.Mark |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Jan 26 15:11:32 2005, in response to People abroad not liking us, posted by brooklynQB on Tue Jan 25 20:38:44 2005. On the roll-out of the A-380, the German Chancellor said that the A-380 puts them ahead of the US in the competition for airliner superiority. So it took the combined efforts of a huge multinational conglomerate and the resources of 4 european governments to build a bigger plane than any single US company. Bravo, europe, you won the un-declared contest. Too bad you couldn't do the same and defend yourserves against the Nazis. Too bad you couldn't protect yourselves against the Soviets during the cold war.Of course people around the world don't like us. They want to be like us. They want what we have. They want the ability to do what we do. They keep hating us while their citizens are building rafts or hiding in wheel wells of airliners to get here. A pox on all of the detractors. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Wed Jan 26 15:16:25 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 25 22:44:44 2005. If nobody liked an empire, there would be no expansionist elements. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by S33 Hauppage on Wed Jan 26 15:34:16 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Mark Michalovic on Wed Jan 26 14:37:08 2005. At least they get a second life in Latin America! However, those are the only buses that can stand the roads in Latin America. (Travel on the Trans-Isthmus Highway in Panama, locally the Carretera Transistmica after it changes to that from Ave. Simon Bolivar, in an RTS, and watch that RTS fall apart!) |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Mark Michalovic on Wed Jan 26 15:52:39 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by S33 Hauppage on Wed Jan 26 15:34:16 2005. In Honduras the main highways are alright, but a lot of smaller towns and villages are served only by dirt roads. You keep the window open until the dust drives you crazy. Then you close it until the heat drives you crazy, at which you open the widnow and start all over again.Mark |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Fred G on Wed Jan 26 16:14:40 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by S33 Hauppage on Wed Jan 26 13:40:03 2005. Che Guevarra---a potential Simon Bolivar in terms of liberating Latin America from American influence cut down so young? That I leave open for debate.Meh, more like the James Dean syndrome...great actor? Maybe, but 3 films don't really prove or disprove that. your pal, Fred |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Express on Wed Jan 26 16:57:08 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Train Dude on Wed Jan 26 15:11:32 2005. Now we have to pay for it. Announced last week was the airports and how much their spending to upgrade their facilities to try to get teh A380 to use them. And unlike the model we use for Amtrak, the airliners arent going to build the runways and airsides themselves. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by S33 Hauppage on Wed Jan 26 16:59:42 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Orange Blossom Express on Wed Jan 26 16:57:08 2005. That is where we should show up the Europeans, by NOT modifying our airports to handle the A380s. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Express on Wed Jan 26 16:59:59 2005, in response to People abroad not liking us, posted by brooklynQB on Tue Jan 25 20:38:44 2005. All I understand is there's talk of other countries not liking us and not buying out goods, which is bad...Which comes to us going into a trade debt by 1.5billion a day... Which translates to other countries being paid in bonds that must stay afloat.. which translates to a really weak-ass dollar... which means more people dropping the dollar as a standard and going to the Euro... which is what Saddam was about to do right as we invaded... which makes other countries not like us? Am I missing something and is there somewhere where I can put my newly formed circle theory? |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by L Train on Wed Jan 26 17:10:16 2005, in response to People abroad not liking us, posted by brooklynQB on Tue Jan 25 20:38:44 2005. It hurts me that European nations dislike the US but we have to look out for ourselves instead of sucking up to them. We can't jeopardize national security so the French can like us. This will all blow over anyway. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Wed Jan 26 17:12:50 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by S33 Hauppage on Wed Jan 26 16:59:42 2005. Okay, how about by limiting the modifications to, umm, Kennedy Airport? |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Express on Wed Jan 26 17:40:15 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Wed Jan 26 17:12:50 2005. How bout bringing back the concordes and no modifications? Why should every Brit getting off a plane be tired after sitting there for 8 hours. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Wed Jan 26 17:49:55 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Orange Blossom Express on Wed Jan 26 17:40:15 2005. gas guzzler, loud noises |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Jan 26 20:09:34 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Orange Blossom Express on Wed Jan 26 16:57:08 2005. Should the US decide not to modify runways to accommodate the new beast the European community would see it for what it is - an anti European gesture. I don't think the US needs to take such drastic actions however. Airline analysts say it's doubtful that Airbus will sell enough A-380s bo break even on the development costs. I'm sure happy that they won the battle. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Fred G on Wed Jan 26 20:20:37 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Train Dude on Wed Jan 26 15:11:32 2005. Rumor has it the Chinese will build their own commercial aircraft, and also bigger. Probably too big to land in existing U.S. airports as well.your pal, Fred |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jan 26 21:30:16 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Wed Jan 26 15:16:25 2005. Right; I was speaking from the perspective of those lands conquered by the empire, not the conquerors' POV. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by M15 to South Ferry on Wed Jan 26 23:18:18 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Train Dude on Wed Jan 26 20:09:34 2005. I want the Concorde back than that behemoth.Lord help us if the security there fails and it is heading our way! |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Jan 26 23:43:05 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by M15 to South Ferry on Wed Jan 26 23:18:18 2005. I was sorry to see the Concord de-commissioned as well. Back in the 70s, one could park on the roof of the Pan AM terminal and watch it every day on Runway 13L or 4L. It was quite a sight. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by S33 Hauppage on Wed Jan 26 23:44:26 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Orange Blossom Express on Wed Jan 26 17:40:15 2005. Brits are our only true allies in Europe. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Jan 26 23:47:28 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Fred G on Wed Jan 26 20:20:37 2005. Personally, I think Boing has the right idea - midsized long range aircraft. In the electronic age, business travel is sure to decline. I think Boing was ahead of it's time with the 747SP. I wonder how an updated version of that aircraft would do against some of today's cookie-cutter non-descript planes. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Jan 26 23:49:28 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by S33 Hauppage on Wed Jan 26 23:44:26 2005. And it's been that way for a long time. The French hate us because we had to save their butts in WWII. They never got over the humilliation of laying down at the feet of the Germans. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Thu Jan 27 01:58:39 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Fred G on Wed Jan 26 20:20:37 2005. Why don't the Japanese build a jetliner? |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Thu Jan 27 02:00:29 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Train Dude on Wed Jan 26 23:43:05 2005. Well, it was kinda sad the day the Concorde got erewhoned. |
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Posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Jan 27 02:22:36 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Train Dude on Wed Jan 26 23:47:28 2005. Yeah who knows what Concorde's future would've been if the 747 wasn't built so soon. :sigh:I never got a chance to hear it fly :-( |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Fytton on Thu Jan 27 05:29:07 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Train Dude on Wed Jan 26 15:11:32 2005. "Of course people around the world don't like us. They want to be like us."Some of them want to be like you. Some of them want to be different. They would like the choice. Some of them perceive that the choice to be different from America isn't really on offer. And isn't that what freedom means? |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 27 06:38:34 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Fytton on Thu Jan 27 05:29:07 2005. "Freedom" is what republicans tell us it will be. As far as I'm concerned, Janis Joplin said it best:?Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose. Nothin' was all she left for me. Feelin' good was easy Lord, when Bobby sang the blues. Feelin' good was good enough for me, good enough for me and Bobby McGee. Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to do. Nothin' ain't worth nothin' but it's free. Feelin' good was easy Lord, when Bobby sang the blues. Feelin' good was good enough for me, good enough for me and Bobby McGee." I do find it amusing though, all this talk of "freedom" while those of us here in the "United States" can have all the freedom we want, as LONG AS we agree with Rush. Ditto. :( |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Jan 27 06:44:58 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Train Dude on Wed Jan 26 23:49:28 2005. The French hate us because we had to save their butts in WWII.If you seriously believe that, then you are a dunce. I'm sure the French would be most happy if American foreign policy were conducted in the interests of France all the time. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Jan 27 06:45:42 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by S33 Hauppage on Wed Jan 26 16:59:42 2005. That is where we should show up the Europeans, by NOT modifying our airports to handle the A380s.And that is where the Europeans say, "Sod America, let's go somewhere progressive". |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Jan 27 06:47:17 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by M15 to South Ferry on Wed Jan 26 23:18:18 2005. But no-one could afford to use Concorde. The only way for a super-sonic plane to be economically viable would be to radically increase seating capacity. Perhaps the EU, Australia, and the Arabs should co-operate on this one. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Thu Jan 27 06:55:16 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by L Train on Wed Jan 26 17:10:16 2005. It hurts me that European nations dislike the US but we have to look out for ourselves instead of sucking up to them. We can't jeopardize national security so the French can like us. This will all blow over anyway.It definitely won't blow over with that sort of strategy. Stop being so bloody arrogant and try to see things from other people's perspectives. You can then usually work out a satisfactory way of manipulating them to achieve your objectives. This is known as diplomacy. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by S33 Hauppage on Thu Jan 27 08:17:05 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Rail Blue on Thu Jan 27 06:44:58 2005. In that case, I would rather show up France by making our airports UNABLE to handle the A380 (except small airports which do not handle international flights). That way, customers are very limited, forcing the use of the A340, B747, or B777. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu Jan 27 11:41:58 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Rail Blue on Thu Jan 27 06:44:58 2005. First of all, I do believe that French pride was hurt by the US having to save their butt during WWII. Second, I assure you that I'm not a dunce. Third, your last would be true of any nation and not just France. Considering that in the course of history, two of the most colonialistic nations were Britain and france, why else would you think the french resent the US. It's quite simple. They've always viewed themselves as a world leading nation. In fact, they were one of the four permanent members of the security council. However, the world has left feckless france behind. They've been reduced to 3rd world status with little influence in the real world community. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Mark Michalovic on Thu Jan 27 11:48:25 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Train Dude on Thu Jan 27 11:41:58 2005. It goes back further than World War II. The long decline of French power began in the 1700s when Britain, their longtime enemy, began to eclipse it on the world stage. Among other things, French had been the "international language" in Europe, and English slowly replaced it. I suspect that resentment of Britain transferred to the U.S. when we succeeded Britain as the leading world power.Mark |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu Jan 27 11:55:37 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Mark Michalovic on Thu Jan 27 11:48:25 2005. You are, of course, correct in the broad picture. However, France was one of the "Big 4" in the early 60s. Since then they've been in a virtual free-fall in world esteem. I suspect that Algeria and Viet Nam gave them the push over the cliff but their continuing antagonism toward their long-time allie, the US, has not given them the status that they'd hoped for in the world community. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Mark Michalovic on Thu Jan 27 11:58:53 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Train Dude on Thu Jan 27 11:55:37 2005. Definitely. DeGaulle's stunts of national sovereignty, such as pulling France out of NATO didn't help any either. Integration with the rest of Europe was the way of the future, and he should have seen that.Mark |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by Deaks on Thu Jan 27 12:53:17 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by S33 Hauppage on Thu Jan 27 08:17:05 2005. In that case, I would rather show up France by making our airports UNABLE to handle the A380 (except small airports which do not handle international flights). That way, customers are very limited, forcing the use of the A340, B747, or B777.How, exactly, would that show up France? Here's two words you might find useful in your reply - 'it' and 'wouldn't'. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Jan 27 14:47:05 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Rail Blue on Thu Jan 27 06:47:17 2005. Last week they ran a documentary on the Concorde and the Shaw of Iran was interested in buying 2 of them b4 Boeing unveiled the 747.Who knows I just wished they'd keep at least 1-2 in operation like for flights on anniversaries or special occasions. It is a waste to let good technology just fade away especially from 30 years ago. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by L Train on Thu Jan 27 18:06:35 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by Rail Blue on Thu Jan 27 06:55:16 2005. Being arrogant would mean we flat out ignored the concerns of our foreign neighbors. We didn't do that. We tried to explain that Iraq was an imminent thread (whether that was true or not isn't relevant). Since they weren't directly affected they could care less about the situation. We went to Iraq despite their objections because we felt it was the best course of action. Ignoring and disagreeing with someone are two different things. |
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Re: People abroad not liking us |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Thu Jan 27 19:30:40 2005, in response to Re: People abroad not liking us, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jan 27 06:38:34 2005. Freedom is being able to travel across state lines without being stopped and searched.Freedom is being able to own a radio or TV without license and developing your own opinions from what you hear, watch or read. Freedom is being able to occupy your residence or home in the knowledge that you are safe and can protect yourself from harm. Freedom is being able to participate in a semi-democratic society in that you have some limited right of choosing who represents you in government and can be a member of the jury system. Freedom is the opportunity to make mistakes with impunity...Charleton Heston should have been one of our Presidents and not the Bush legacy. 'You can pry my gun out of my cold dead hands,' Mr. Charleton Heston announced at an NRA convention, clutching a hand-crafted flintlock rifle. Freedom is what you make of it!!!!!!!!! Nuke em all. |
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