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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 18:44:41 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Sun May 11 22:43:28 2014. Nope. My point of view is based on the point you make that Palestinians should be incorporated into Israel.Actually, I'm pretty sure I stated that I'm OK with multiple options, but Israel impoverishing Palestine and then blaming them for not being sufficiently dedicated to peace isn't one of them. The question is when you claim that the immigration policy is "at his expense", what exactly did it take away from him that he had before? Who's at what expense? Actually you are implying it, or at least your still dodging it. You are demonstrating again and again that you are unwilling or unable to even try to imagine what it's like to be in that situation. Bullshit. I imagine it every day, especially since, unlike you, I happen to belong to a demographic or two that is actually at risk for being targeted and is, in fact, being so targeted in many countries. I never said "place yourself in the Holocaust happening right now in country XYZ", I said this was a HYPOTHETICAL situation where you and your group are being targeted. Your hypothetical was part of an argument that used the Holocaust in the 1940s to justify Israel's double standard in the 2010s and I pointed out the flaws in this argument. But if you want a full response to your hypothetical, you can have one. If my country designated me a member of the out-group and started persecuting me and members of my demographic, and this persecution became severe enough that I had to flee the country, then a country that says "we'll take you in— you're a member our OUR in-group" is not an optimal solution. In fact, it's not even a long-term solution at all; at best, it's a temporary haven while I search for a non-bigoted country to take me in. The reason for this is that no one should ever rely on a bigot not to persecute them— even one who is bigoted in your favour. This is because once you have rejected the idea that everyone is created equal and declared one form of bigotry to be acceptable, you open the door to others, and so bigotry tends to coalesce into globules. In America, for example, it's very hard to find someone who is racist but not sexist or sexist but not homophobic. If I were declared a member of Israel's in-group and welcomed as a Jew, I would still be at considerable risk of being declared a second-class citizen and persecuted because I'm American, or because of my ethnicity, or because of my political beliefs, or any other factors. Moreover, bigots tend to take increasingly narrow views of their favoured groups. In Nazi Germany, one grandparent who wasn't baptised at a young age made you a Jew. In the antebellum South, one black ancestor made you black— and if you had no black ancestors but obvious Irish ancestors, you might be declared black anyway. So even if Israel welcomes me as a Jew today, it's only a matter of time before they declare me "not a real Jew" and persecute me themselves. That the in-group designation is based on religion just makes it more likely— religions have schisms which lead to mutual hatred. If I had to flee America tomorrow to avoid the camps, then obviously Israel would be as good an option as any, but as soon as I arrived I'd be looking for non-bigoted countries to take me in so that I'd have somewhere safe to live before I had to flee Israel. a) Isn't that great that somebody was nice enough to create a haven for you. What would happen if it was between 1939 and 1947? What would happen if it were 1400 BCE and I was in Israel but I was getting attacked by some other local tribe? You have yet to prove how the politics and prejudices in effect 70 years ago are relevant to Israel's immigration laws and Palestinian relations today. b) Ah, so you ARE for the Law of Return if it was around 1948 or so, when it was necessary, but you think it's obsolete now. Around 1948 or so, it would have been more than a little understandable. Obviously, I would quibble with the fact that it was only open to Jews and not all of the other persecuted minorities despite the need for a haven from said persecution being the justification for its existence. That said, when you've just seen mass murder on such a scale, I'm not going to fault you for instinctively protecting your own. Why those policies exist today is another matter. In fact, it's the point of this debate. Except that the Jews don't think so... And you get to speak for "the Jews" now? I somehow doubt you were appointed spokesman. ...and your solution would end up filling Israel and pretty much ruin the solution they had set up for themselves, leaving them scrambling for another haven. How, exactly, does saying persecuted minorities have a right to flee to Israel regardless of their religion "ruin" it, let alone "fill it?" I think Jewish people would beg to differ. Really? Because I spoke to quite a few of them, and none reported being persecuted lately. Nice ideal, totally lacking in hard physical fact. Segregation ended in US. Segregation ended in South Africa. Women granted the right to vote worldwide. Gay marriage legalised in more states each year. Are those facts hard and physical enough for you? Any proof that they claim roots in a territory or want to set down roots in a territory? Outside of modern immigration, I strongly doubt anyone related to you has any meaningful "roots" in Israel. Keep in mind that ancestors so distant they aren't genetic relatives of yours don't count. So Jews are entitled to Israel because of some tenuous ancestral connection that's been heavily shrouded in myth, but Romani don't get to move there because they "don't have roots?" Strawman. No one is recommending wiping out a demographic, or otherwise committing a crime against humanity. Otherwise, it's working as a haven for Jews, just as intended. That counts as a working, implemented solution. No, it's a reductio ad absurdum, which is a valid argument. You claimed (a) a policy is justified by the fact that it has been implemented and (b) a policy is justified by the fact that it has the effects intended by the people who implemented it. I pointed out that the Holocaust was implemented, and the deaths that took place therein were intended by the people who implemented the policy. Thus, by your own argument, the Holocaust would be justified. Since you doubtlessly consider that position to be absurd, you are forced to abandon the argument which leads to that conclusion. This sounds like yet another strawman. It doesn't have to be a "massive, worldwide persecution", it could be the persecution of a group in a single country. If the persecution is limited to a single country, then there are plenty of countries willing to accept refugees— many of them better than Israel. Allowing unlimited refugee emigration to Israel will fill it up rather quickly, as well. No one's proposing "unlimited refugee emigration to Israel." There are plenty of countries that can take in refugees— Israel only needs to take its fair share. The problem is that they have a double standard; Jews are allowed whether they're being persecuted or not, while non-Jews risk being turned away. Despite much dancing, you have yet to provide a cogent argument in favour of this double standard. So your goal should be the latter, get enough lifeboats for all the passengers, not overload the first lifeboat and sink it. I think you've got it! It's a pity you've previously declared that relying on the one lifeboat is "better" than trying to find others, or "at the very least a damn sight more achievable," then pointed to the one to dismiss the possibility of getting more by noting they have yet to be acquired, that additional lifeboats are a "nice ideal, totally lacking in hard physical fact" and that adding new lifeboats is impossible because it's in the nature of the ocean liner to only have one. I'd be happy that you finally understood this point, but I think in actuality that you've simply failed to grasp the analogy. Except what your trying to do is to change a policy before you've made the change to human nature which would otherwise increase the chances of your policy change's success. And your proposing to do it first to a small, limited resource country, which is a poor starting point. See, there you go again declaring improvement impossible due to the supposed immutability of human nature. What makes you think people aren't trying to defuse anti-semitism also? It must have occurred to you that people are already doing that too, right? Not you. You've been claiming that trying to make other countries more welcoming is impossible because human nature doesn't allow for it. No, the point is that you recommended the Jews alter their haven in a way which would reduce its viability in the long term, on the premise that if other countries can be convinced to do it, the haven will be unnecessary. How would it reduce Israel's long-term viability to stop giving preferential treatment to Jews? Or at minimum, require that Jews actually be persecuted in some way before they get to jump to the head of the line for immigration status? My point is that the current haven is already viable for the long term, so it shouldn't be altered until you get your solution implemented elsewhere. And my point is that Israel is not a viable haven now. If I were being persecuted due to my religious persuasion, would I be welcome in Israel? If the answer is "it depends on what your religious persuasion is," then you have conceded Israel's lack of viability as a haven. That you would accuse me of lacking empathy is highly ironic, since you seem to have no concern whatsoever for anybody who isn't a member of your in-group. Since there either wasn't a solution or the current solution clearly failed, that seems unlikely. My point is, you are denouncing efforts to create a working solution because we've already got a flawed, barely functional solution and that ought to be good enough. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 18:53:52 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon May 12 11:40:36 2014. ... sees Hamas as a terrorist organization that cannot be negotiated with...That's as may be, but if Israel and Palestine really tried to sit down and negotiate how to split the pie, it would help if Israel wasn't eating the pie while they started. In any case, you asked about the opinions of the American left and then abruptly swapped it out for the Israeli left. Barring further research into the nitty-gritty of Israeli politics, I won't trust their "left" to be anything but, and I certainly wouldn't trust any mainstream political organisation or party in Israel to be secular and non-bigoted. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 18:58:17 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon May 12 11:43:31 2014. No, it doesn't. I pointed out that if the Holocaust had involved black people instead of Jews, there would likely have been more than six million dead because pigmented skin is immediately obvious to a casual observer, while Judaism is not immediately obvious and can, in fact, be hidden if necessary.You claimed that failing to practice all of the rituals of Judaism did not make you non-Jewish in the eyes of the Nazis but, despite your assertion to the contrary, this fact is irrelevant to my point that Judaism is less physically obvious than dark skin. And I don't need points from nutters. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Wed May 14 19:14:42 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 17:52:46 2014. Right back atcha. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by AlM on Wed May 14 19:31:12 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 14 18:30:01 2014. Israel is "occupying" land that no other country has ever maintained sovereignty over, and therefore, the "occupation" is not illegal under international law??? Britain? The Ottoman Empire before that? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 19:33:48 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon May 12 11:57:54 2014. If you truly believed Israel doesn't bear the onus for everything that has happened in the Middle East...No rational person would assume I did. (and your assertion that the events of 1967 and 1947 have no bearing on the situation today doesn't do much to help your arguments) Actually, that was your assertion. You made it up because shredding another straw man was easy and disproving my point was essentially impossible. ...you would write as I often do that "Israel and the Arabs both have a role to play in where we are today and both need to do their parts to achieve peace" or something to that effect. No. That's awkward and stilted and does not resemble the writings of any person I have ever met. Including you, by the way— I have yet to hear you say it. How often do you hear people say "America and Afghanistan both have a role to play in where we are today and both need to do their parts to achieve peace" or something to that effect? You state over and over that Israel is best equipped to fix the problems... Israel is best equipped to change Israel's immigration policy and Israel's approach to Palestine. If they aren't, then who else is? ...but neglect to mention that Hamas is a terror organization whose charter calls for Israel's destruction Actually, I'm pretty sure I mentioned Hamas and its terrorism on several occasions, if only because the nutters like yourself claimed that failing to denounce an evil, no matter how unrelated to the topic at hand, necessarily implies endorsement of that evil. As Mitch says, if Hamas lays down its weapons, there would be no war, but if Israel lays down its weapons, there would be no Israel. If Palestine lays down its weapons, there would be no Palestine. Israel has demonstrated that it is not interested in a free Palestinian state, nor is it interested in accepting Palestinians as equal citizens. Those are the two legitimate options. Encroaching on the West Bank and impoverishing Gaza and then pointing to the inevitable backlash to justify those intrusions is not a legitimate option. You've proposed idea after idea that would result in Israel's identity being changed significantly or its complete destruction. That's a sentence a homeopathic treatment marketer would be ashamed to have written. "You've proposed idea after idea that would result in Apple losing ground to Android or the complete destruction of the entire physical infrastructure of the internet." A meaningless change and a horrible but highly unlikely outcome sharing space in the same sentence, hoping that adjacency will combine them into a hybrid with the likelihood of the first and the drastic nature of the second. Yes, my proposed policies risk changing Israel from a nation in which a majority of the population believes a magic man told them not to eat pork and perform weird rituals to a nation in which a majority of the population believes a magic man told them not to eat pork and perform weird rituals that are slightly different. Which is totally the same thing as Israel being destroyed. Also, cut out the strawman bullshit, it is a nice way to hide behind your logical gaps, but just exposes them. If you stopped making arguments to debunk the crazy positions that no one actually believes but which you arbitrarily assume that I do, then I will stop pointing out that you are shredding straw men. For all of the logical gaps you allege I have, you have yet to actually mention one. Tell us what you believe and stop playing the word games. What I believe? Just for starters— 1. Israel should abandon its double standards. Admittance criteria should not be determined by religion. This policy is subject to modification in the event that there actually is massive persecution of Jews and no other country will take in the refugees. 2. Israel and Palestine should make a real effort to negotiate for peace. This requires that Israel not pretend that Palestine is launching entirely unprovoked attacks. It also requires that Israel not be physically taking over the territory as they debate the disposition of it. 3. If peace negotiations fail (and at this point they probably will, assuming they can even start), and an open war breaks out, then Israel has every right to invade Palestinian territories— if Hamas is a legitimate government, then they can be attacked and deposed as an enemy state, and if Hamas is a terrorist organisation, then the Palestinian territories are anarchic and can be claimed by Israel. However, 4. Once the war has ended, Israel's right to occupy the Palestinian territories is limited to the immediate aftermath of the war, after which they are obliged to either claim the territories and give equal citizenship to their inhabitants or withdraw from them entirely. (Building walls and maintaining blockades is not withdrawing.) If they choose the latter, they have an obligation to at least attempt to establish a stable government, and if they choose the former, they should potentially allow a vote for independence. 5. If the war ends with the continued existence of a Palestinian state, peace negotiations should resume to discuss the long term state of affairs, including how much territory must be ceded to the Palestinian state and economic relations between the two. 6. Although a long shot, a neutral third nation could attempt to mediate the Israeli/Palestinian dispute. Note that the United States is not a neutral third nation, nor is any country that officially declares itself a "(religion) State." |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:00:35 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon May 12 12:08:01 2014. It is virtually impossible to not be considered Jewish under religious law if you already were considered Jewish.Great, more arbitrary nonsense. So a thoroughly observant Jew has to jump through hoops to prove he's Jewish because he converted recently, while someone who is manifestly not Jewish and proudly proclaims that he isn't is considered a Jew anyway because he used to be? You still fail to understand the problem with that thread... The problem is that I said I wasn't observing Passover and a bunch of nutters threw a fit and declared it was "antisemitic" to not observe Jewish religious law or to perform Jewish celebrations in a manner they deem "incorrect." No one has provided any alternate explanation. For that matter, no one has answered my question re: the tref Seder. If you need a reminder, I asked: So suppose I had said: "I'm celebrating by going to a Seder where we will be eating non-kosher meat and cheese cubes that were prepared in a kitchen filled with chametz, and we will be reading from a homemade Haggadah which contains a story not in any Torah ever printed." Since I can't figure out the logic behind the claims of antisemitism in that thread, it's an obvious clarifying question to ask. Yet no one seems able to answer it. ...which is why you have so many problems with people here... No, I have problems with people here because so many people here are nutters. You'll notice that I haven't had any problems with the people here who are not nutters. ...and with the police. What does that have to do with anything? Are you claiming the police are somehow drawn to me by the smell of deliciously tref cheeseburgers? Because that only happened once. In actuality, I haven't had any problems with the police for years now, but telling you why would unleash a wave of irony that may cause undue harm to SubChat's servers. The "requirements" of what the text of the Haggadah should contain are fairly easy to fulfill, much of it is custom that has been virtually universally accepted by Jews worldwide at this point anyway. It was a satire mocking the entire Passover story as ludicrous and implausible from the complete nonexistence of Jewish slaves in Egypt to God's apparent need to convince some dude to agree with his plan before he could implement it to the absurdity of parting a sea. In limerick form. I doubt it has been universally accepted by Jews worldwide. So what about the whole of the ceremony? Antisemitic or not? You don't understand the difference between respect and a free pass on criticism. I'm afraid that's your failing despite your attempts to project it onto me. You would respect me and every other Jewish poster on this board who keeps Passover if you don't make your asinine, childish post about what you might want to eat during the holiday... Expecting me to refrain from mentioning a wide range of thoroughly innocuous subjects lest you get irrationally offended is not asking for "respect." It's not necessarily asking for a free pass from criticism, but it's definitely asking me to disrupt my life and walk on eggshells to accommodate your silly habits. It's a bit like asking me not to invite Selkirk and Bingbong out for a beer because you are a recovering alcoholic— but without the justification that your successful recovery is actually beneficial. ...and then tell the rest of us who prefer to keep kosher for Passover we're backwards and mindlessly following what we've instructed to do via "fairy tale" and holding back all of humanity. I don't think I said that. Do you happen to have a link handy? I'm sure I said that religion is holding humanity back, but I don't think I applied similar sentiments to any individual practitioners. Religion is a fairy tale, though, and it is holding humanity back, and expecting me not to mention either of these things because you don't like them most definitely is asking for a free pass from criticism. Conversely, no religious person here AFAIK has told you that your religious beliefs or lack thereof hold back humanity or should be abandoned outright. No? Really? Not that it matters. I wouldn't mind if they did. I'd argue the point, and I'd defend what I believe, but I'd never claim they're being "disrespectful" for criticising what I believe and I'd certainly never argue that they shouldn't be allowed to under penalty of being labeled "offensive." I certainly wouldn't try to equate that criticism with persecution of any demographic I happened to be in. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:05:25 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon May 12 12:11:55 2014. And the fact you "criticise bad ideas without regard for what their proponents think of them" is part of your problem here...No. That all ideas are open for criticism regardless of what anyone thinks is the default position. My problem here is that you and your fellow nutters are demanding special exemption for your beliefs. ...you need to find ways to constructively criticize other people's ideas in a RESPECTFUL manner. OK then. Have it your way. How should I "respectfully" criticise Judaism? This post says more about you than anything else you've posted yet and I hope other people notice it, read it, and remember it the next time you start a controversy here. Indeed. That I don't brook any dogma no matter how popular it may be nor how whiny its proponents is one of my more positive traits. If it were more widespread, the world would be a better place. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:10:14 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon May 12 12:20:38 2014. You keep saying I'm antisemitic, and yet despite repeated requests you have never been able to provide a single link to prove it. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:10:57 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon May 12 12:18:15 2014. You and people who think like you do create double standards where Israel can never do right in your eyes.Nope. I already said what Israel should be doing differently. It's the same thing any other country should be doing under similar situations, so no double standards there. Stop telling me I'm making assumptions about your beliefs and stop hiding behind your mythical straw men and tell me what you truly believe. I have before. I did again just recently. If you can't address them, that's your own problem. The fact that you can't answer a single question with a straight answer... Which questions? Link to them and I'll answer them. ...and when pressured to give one, you give ones that are so anti-religion... If "anti-religion" is a problem for you, you'll need to justify religion. Let's start with the basics. If you believe in any gods, demonstrate that he/she/it/they exist. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:13:45 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon May 12 12:21:49 2014. OK then, so we'll accept for the sake of argument that there's this one guy who needs to be killed but he's currently in a mosque.Which tactic is more likely to minimise civilian casualties? (a) Send one dude to the mosque to slit his throat or shoot him from a distance when he leaves it, or (b) Launch a missile at the mosque which is guaranteed to kill everyone inside it. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:15:34 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon May 12 12:23:40 2014. That I made an idiotic statement and that I'm trying to walk it back are both claims that need to be proven.You haven't made the slightest effort to do so. As a result, "trolling" remains on the list of viable hypotheses for your behaviour. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:15:57 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon May 12 12:33:13 2014. Proff? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:17:49 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon May 12 12:35:50 2014. I don't acknowledge things that aren't true.So you deny that Israel has missiles? I guess if you deny it vehemently enough it can't possibly be true, right? I've made no attempt to address pretty much anything else here in other replies, but I'm hoping you won't notice my dodge and just forget about it all. Fixed it for you. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:19:10 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon May 12 12:37:53 2014. No, I'm up in arms that Israel intentionally targets and kills civilians as an indirect result of their decision to pick "b." |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:21:00 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon May 12 12:38:23 2014. Self-defense requires that you not be trying to take the other person's land when he attacks you.If Palestine's attacks were entirely unprovoked, I'd be calling for Israel to smash them. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by AlM on Wed May 14 20:22:47 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:13:45 2014. Your post and prior history of posts imply that Israel doesn't do (a) on occasions when it has the capability and doesn't mind doing (b).I would argue the facts indicate that Israel does (a) when it can, but usually it can't, and doesn't consciously do (b), though it probably has done (b) accidentally a few times. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:27:08 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon May 12 12:39:30 2014. Syrian and Jordanian policies have no significance to Israel's choice of policies re: immigration and Palestinian relations.Once Israel and Palestine can actually sit down at the negotiating table, those countries might be involved in the discussion, but neither one is actually a party to the dispute. Forget about North Korea— think about the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Multiple factions are fighting over power in the Congo. By your argument, the United States is directly relevant to that dispute because it's not trying to promote one side or the other and it's less than welcoming of Congolese refugees. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:27:56 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon May 12 13:58:37 2014. This is just adorable. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:29:49 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon May 12 12:40:54 2014. The territories aren't all that big; a ground invasion can't be completely dismissed.Especially when no missile is accurate enough to target one person in a heavily populated area. That Israeli soldiers would be put at risk is irrelevant— if you want to fight a war, you have to risk your soldiers before any civilians. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:37:17 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Mon May 12 17:38:42 2014. So either CHIMM or me are almost all Jewish but one quadrillionth not? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:41:09 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Tue May 13 07:25:51 2014. ...(because they share your views)...No they don't. ...or aren't of consequence to you since they don't take you seriously. Proff. From them, please. Regardless, why in the heck would you want to be mentioned in the same breath as Selkirk or bingbong? Because Selkirk and Bingbong are pretty cool guys. They write operating systems and doesn't afraid of anything. |
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Re: “Palestinian” university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:42:14 2014, in response to Re: “Palestinian” university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Tue May 13 07:30:00 2014. You haven't given me anything to respond to. You claim I want Israel destroyed; since you haven't offered any evidence of this, I have no case to answer. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:44:20 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Tue May 13 07:31:25 2014. You said this:It all goes back to the 1947 resolution, the declaration of the state of Israel, and the war. I don't understand how that can be dismissed. The context (I know you have trouble with that) was a discussion of Israel's current policies, meaning you implied the war was current. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:46:29 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Tue May 13 07:32:16 2014. OK, so then that's 4 posters and 4 different opinions on the topic:WMATA: Supports a two-state solution. CHIMM: Supports an Israeli takeover. Nilet: Doesn't care as long as human rights are respected. Terrapin: Doesn't understand the question and dismisses the discussion as "stupid." |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:47:24 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Tue May 13 07:37:04 2014. Aw, you seemed able to understand a joke for a few posts there. Guess you failed to fall off the wagon again. :( |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by AlM on Wed May 14 20:51:17 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:44:20 2014. The context (I know you have trouble with that) was a discussion of Israel's current policies, meaning you implied the war was current.A few posts up you said: That war being long over, it is no longer part of the current political calculus. That statement is patent nonsense. Haven't you heard of Palestinians who want to return now to homes their families left during that war? Aren't you aware that this is one of the largest sticking points in any negotiations? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 21:13:26 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 14 18:30:01 2014. Israel is "occupying" land that no other country has ever maintained sovereignty over, and therefore, the "occupation" is not illegal under international law. Palestine has never existed as a nation, therefore, Israel cannot occupy it.If the territory is part of Israel, then Israel's refusal to grant equal citizenship to its inhabitants proves my claim re: apartheid. Your claims about the purpose of the "wall" are also false. The security fence was not built so that Israel could annex land in the West Bank. Doesn't matter whether it was built to do that or not. It physically does. Part of the West Bank is on Israel's side of the wall, thus becoming attached to Israel. Racism is not the same as segregation. Israel can be a racist state while not being an apartheid state. No, but if Palestine isn't a country and Israel's claim on those territories is legitimate, then their failure to grant equal rights to residents of Gaza and the West Bank is apartheid. No country would accept the status quo that Israel faces where it gives supplies meant for housing to a terrorist entity that then turns them into weaponry. No country would accept the status quo where a foreign power (or worse yet, their own government) denies them access to essential supplies on the grounds that preventing them from building houses is required to prevent terrorism. You have demonstrated for weeks now that you don't give a shit about the nuances of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict... You've demonstrated you don't have a clue about said nuances. ...but rather, you've already made up your mind about who is responsible, who is at fault, and could care less about the facts on the ground. Says the person who vehemently denies any wrongdoing on Israel's part. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 21:15:37 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by AlM on Wed May 14 20:22:47 2014. My example is a real event. Israel chose (b).I don't buy that they launched a missile by accident. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 23:42:40 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Tue May 13 07:29:20 2014. So you're trying to resort to smugness in the vain hope it'll help you save face after making a colossal fool of yourself by claiming that you owned SubChat?72-point font is apparently not enough for you. I'll have to pull out the heavy hitters. You said: Referee??? I'm a f*cking moderator. At one time I even owned the site. PROFF OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Thu May 15 07:08:49 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 23:42:40 2014. What in the world are you talking about?? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu May 15 08:24:14 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Thu May 15 07:08:49 2014. He's..... |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 15 11:59:13 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu May 15 08:24:14 2014. And Terrapin, who claimed he owned SubChat, is the picture of sanity?Just FYI— after death, people who post autoplaying videos will be obliged to serve 20 minutes in Hell for each offense. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 15 11:59:53 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Thu May 15 07:08:49 2014. Nuance and context elude you yet again? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 12:12:45 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 21:13:26 2014. I'm sorry, but Israeli policy is not one of apartheid. You do a great injustice to those who did suffer under apartheid in South Africa by trying to label Israeli policy as such.It does matter what the security fence was built to do. If you understood that, you might be able to be critical of some aspects of how the project was undertaken without dismissing Israel's need to build it. This is an example of the nuance that you lack. You don't give a damn about what Israel was trying to do from its perspective, and only care about one aspect of the result. Israel is not the governing power in Gaza. When will you come to understand that? Perhaps you should rise up in anger at Hamas, which prioritizes building bombs over homes. For all the burden you place on Israel in its posts for this and that, you seem to be giving a large free pass to the Palestinians for not entering serious peace negotiations in years. If you understood that aspect of what was going on, you might understand how Israel can "occupy" yet not want to provide services to places in the West Bank such as Area A. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 12:20:52 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 18:44:41 2014. Israel impoverishing Palestine and then blaming them for not being sufficiently dedicated to peace isn't one of them.When are you going to realize that the Arabs attacked Israel the moment the state was created to try wiping it off the map in 1947, and also attacked in 1967 and 1973, and lost all three wars, yet haven't done much of anything to create a state in the land they do control? You have yet to prove how the politics and prejudices in effect 70 years ago are relevant to Israel's immigration laws and Palestinian relations today. Yes he has, as have I. You refuse to listen. Really? Because I spoke to quite a few of them, and none reported being persecuted lately. You should talk to the ones all immigrating from Europe to Israel, or the ones who were told to leave the Arab countries their families had lived for generations or else, or the Russian Jews who immigrated to Israel after the fall of the USSR, or the Ethiopian Jews, or... So Jews are entitled to Israel because of some tenuous ancestral connection that's been heavily shrouded in myth This is the kind of disrespectful bullshit you need to cut out. It isn't myth. Historical evidence suggests many aspects of what is documented in the Bible to be true and that the Jews have had a presence in Israel for thousands of years. There are plenty of countries that can take in refugees— Israel only needs to take its fair share. Israel is geographically closer to and more accessible to those seeking to flee their homes in places such as Africa. The refugees aren't choosing their destination with some sort of ratio in mind that doesn't create a difficult burden for Israel. How would it reduce Israel's long-term viability to stop giving preferential treatment to Jews? Or at minimum, require that Jews actually be persecuted in some way before they get to jump to the head of the line for immigration status? Shut up, and before you post another batch of BS, read this thread in its entirety and you'll have your answer. No one should have to explain this to you yet again. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 12:23:39 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 18:53:52 2014. it would help if Israel wasn't eating the pie while they started.And it would help if the Palestinians actually took a share of the pie when it is offered to them. In any case, you asked about the opinions of the American left and then abruptly swapped it out for the Israeli left. I apologize if this was unclear, but I always meant to ask about the opinions of the Israeli left. I won't trust their "left" to be anything but, and I certainly wouldn't trust any mainstream political organisation or party in Israel to be secular and non-bigoted. Right, because mainstream, "secular" Israeli society is pretty religious. Did you know that according to a survey, 75% of Israelis consider themselves to be secular but the same survey also found that 75% of Israelis light candles each and every Shabbat? Good luck getting all the Israelis to abandon their religion... |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 12:24:06 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 18:58:17 2014. Nope, my point still stands. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 15 12:30:17 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 12:12:45 2014. I'm sorry, but Israeli policy is not one of apartheid.Yes, it is. You do a great injustice to those who did suffer under apartheid in South Africa by trying to label Israeli policy as such. So I'm not allowed to point out something is bad simply because an even worse example of it exists? It's hard to keep track of all the imaginary debate rules you made up. It does matter what the security fence was built to do. Nope. Annexing part of the West Bank is not justified, sorry. If you understood that, you might be able to be critical of some aspects of how the project was undertaken without dismissing Israel's need to build it. I'm pretty sure I was being critical of the fact that they annexed part of the West Bank and divided communities when they built it, which, last time I checked, are some aspects of how the project was undertaken. This is an example of the nuance that you lack. Says the person who can't be bothered to even understand half of what I say before going on long rants about what he assumes I believe. You don't give a damn about what Israel was trying to do from its perspective, and only care about one aspect of the result. It's pretty clear that what Israel was trying to do (in part) was annex part of the West Bank. If you and a neighbor are fighting, so you build a fence between your properties, except you build in thirty feet over the property line in his yard, then it's clear you're trying to take over part of his property— the act speaks for itself. Israel is not the governing power in Gaza. When will you come to understand that? Perhaps you should rise up in anger at Hamas, which prioritizes building bombs over homes. Israel is "occupying" land that no other country has ever maintained sovereignty over, and therefore, the "occupation" is not illegal under international law. Palestine has never existed as a nation, therefore, Israel cannot occupy it. Ah. Israel's occupation is legitimate because Palestine is not a country and has no government of its own, but it doesn't need to provide services and citizenship because Palestine is its own country and Hamas is its legitimate government. Like Israel, you're trying to have it both ways. You don't get to have it both ways. Either Palestine is a country or it isn't. You need to make up your mind. For all the burden you place on Israel in its posts for this and that, you seem to be giving a large free pass to the Palestinians for not entering serious peace negotiations in years. We've been through this. Several times, in fact. Would you please stop beating up straw men labeled "Nilet gives free pass to Hamas" already? If you understood that aspect of what was going on, you might understand how Israel can "occupy" yet not want to provide services to places in the West Bank such as Area A. I understand what's going on better than you do, since you seem to be insisting that Israel is the purist of nations that just wants to be left alone and is being attacked by mean bully Palestine for absolutely no reason. Or to put it your way, for all the burden you place on Palestine, you seem to be giving a large free pass to the Israelis for not entering serious peace negotiations in years. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 12:33:18 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 19:33:48 2014. Actually, that was your assertion. You made it up because shredding another straw man was easy and disproving my point was essentially impossible.Nope, it was yours, and now you are trying to walk it back. But you will fail. No. That's awkward and stilted and does not resemble the writings of any person I have ever met. Including you, by the way— I have yet to hear you say it. I write it here often and get flamed for it. You should pay attention more. How often do you hear people say "America and Afghanistan both have a role to play in where we are today and both need to do their parts to achieve peace" or something to that effect? Afghanistan doesn't vow as a matter of national policy to eliminate the United States. Hamas does. Israel is best equipped to change Israel's immigration policy and Israel's approach to Palestine. If they aren't, then who else is? The Palestinians have a role to play on that second one. If Palestine lays down its weapons, there would be no Palestine. Israel has demonstrated that it is not interested in a free Palestinian state, nor is it interested in accepting Palestinians as equal citizens. Those are the two legitimate options. Encroaching on the West Bank and impoverishing Gaza and then pointing to the inevitable backlash to justify those intrusions is not a legitimate option. False and false. Israel has been preparing for the creation of a Palestinian state since May 14, 1948, despite being attacked three times by the Arab countries (of which Palestine is not one of them, why is that by the way?). Again, this has already been explained to you. "You've proposed idea after idea that would result in Apple losing ground to Android or the complete destruction of the entire physical infrastructure of the internet." A meaningless change and a horrible but highly unlikely outcome sharing space in the same sentence, hoping that adjacency will combine them into a hybrid with the likelihood of the first and the drastic nature of the second. What a ridiculous analogy. Yes, my proposed policies risk changing Israel from a nation in which a majority of the population believes a magic man told them not to eat pork and perform weird rituals to a nation in which a majority of the population believes a magic man told them not to eat pork and perform weird rituals that are slightly different. Which is totally the same thing as Israel being destroyed. This is the insulting talk that you need to abandon. You either don't understand the magnitude of what you are proposing, or you are so disrespectful of both all the Jews, Muslims, and Christians living in the Middle East, whether in Israel or somewhere else, that you have to diminish their ritual beliefs and practices to myths being predicated by "magic men." Just stop it already. And I already explained to you why it is important to me and many other Jews worldwide why it is important there be at least one Jewish state in the world, whether you like it existing or not. (It certainly seems you would like to see the latter.) If you stopped making arguments to debunk the crazy positions that no one actually believes but which you arbitrarily assume that I do, then I will stop pointing out that you are shredding straw men. For all of the logical gaps you allege I have, you have yet to actually mention one. I have pointed them out. You're too dense and self absorbed to realize it, so you go on and continue to insult me and every other religious person on this board, no matter their faith. I guess you missed the post explaining how Israel has been at war with various Arab nations since 1947... |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 15 12:46:12 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 12:20:52 2014. When are you going to realize that the Arabs attacked Israel..."The Arabs." So now you're going with racism? An entire race is inherently dedicated to destroying Israel by virtue of ancestry alone? Yes he has, as have I. You refuse to listen. No one has. If you think otherwise, then link. You should talk to the ones all immigrating from Europe to Israel, or the ones who were told to leave the Arab countries their families had lived for generations or else, or the Russian Jews who immigrated to Israel after the fall of the USSR, or the Ethiopian Jews, or... I've talked to quite a few Russian Jews, some of whom have actually stayed in Russia. I've also talked to Jews who immigrated from Europe to America. This is the kind of disrespectful bullshit you need to cut out. It isn't myth. Historical evidence suggests many aspects of what is documented in the Bible to be true and that the Jews have had a presence in Israel for thousands of years. OK, when you're trying to justify the authenticity of the Bible, you're really grasping at straws. Even if it were true that an ancient tribe of Jews lived in what's now Israel (which admittedly it probably is), it hardly makes Israel the homeland for all Jews— last time I checked, a homeland is typically based on birth and ancestry rather than joining a religion that was invented there. It's all but impossible to determine who, if anyone, is actually descended from that ancient tribe and it wouldn't matter anyway— that was so long ago that they're not genetic relatives of anybody currently alive today. Sure, Jews have had "a presence" in Israel; they've had a presence nearly everywhere for hundreds of years. Why, then, should that territory be declared the Homeland that all Jews have a right to? Frankly, you'd be far more justified in claiming that America is the homeland of its indigenous people and all the non-indigenous people need to be kicked out (or confined to a small impoverished territory as part of a "two state solution") in order to preserve its true character. Israel is geographically closer to and more accessible to those seeking to flee their homes in places such as Africa. The refugees aren't choosing their destination with some sort of ratio in mind that doesn't create a difficult burden for Israel. No, but Israel is telling them that sure, they'll be considered for immigration status but first they need to give full citizenship to some guy who isn't being persecuted at all simply because he's Jewish. My main gripe is the double standard, but you refuse to address that. Shut up, and before you post another batch of BS, read this thread in its entirety and you'll have your answer. No one should have to explain this to you yet again. No one has ever explained it, and I've read this thread. All people have done is repeatedly declare that Jews are inherently superior and letting too many infidels into Israel is tantamount to destroying it. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 12:49:11 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:00:35 2014. So a thoroughly observant Jew has to jump through hoops to prove he's Jewish because he converted recently, while someone who is manifestly not Jewish and proudly proclaims that he isn't is considered a Jew anyway because he used to be?That's correct. It is like Hotel California. You can check out any time you'd like but you can never leave. The problem is that I said I wasn't observing Passover and a bunch of nutters threw a fit and declared it was "antisemitic" to not observe Jewish religious law or to perform Jewish celebrations in a manner they deem "incorrect." I never called you an anti-Semite, I just called you an asshole and I still believe you are one. And you still don't understand why. No one gives a F--- if you keep Passover or not, but you don't need to express it the way you did. No, I have problems with people here because so many people here are nutters. You'll notice that I haven't had any problems with the people here who are not nutters. And nutters=religious people. You think I can't see past that? I stand by my you are an asshole comments. What does that have to do with anything? Are you claiming the police are somehow drawn to me by the smell of deliciously tref cheeseburgers? Because that only happened once. You have unconventional views that are far from mainstream on a variety of topics. Whether they are in fact right or not, you will never get society at large to accept them as such with your attitude. It was a satire mocking the entire Passover story as ludicrous and implausible from the complete nonexistence of Jewish slaves in Egypt to God's apparent need to convince some dude to agree with his plan before he could implement it to the absurdity of parting a sea. In limerick form. I doubt it has been universally accepted by Jews worldwide. If that is what it was, it is quite insulting, but I'm not surprised you would keep company with such people. There are plenty of explanations for how the Red Sea could have been split. Expecting me to refrain from mentioning a wide range of thoroughly innocuous subjects lest you get irrationally offended is not asking for "respect." It's not necessarily asking for a free pass from criticism, but it's definitely asking me to disrupt my life and walk on eggshells to accommodate your silly habits. It's a bit like asking me not to invite Selkirk and Bingbong out for a beer because you are a recovering alcoholic— but without the justification that your successful recovery is actually beneficial. Your thoughts, ideas, and posts are not innocuous. My religious practices are not to be called "silly habits" if you want any sort of respect from me, and I bet the same goes for many other people here. Your analogy with regard to going out for a beer has no merit. I'm sure I said that religion is holding humanity back, but I don't think I applied similar sentiments to any individual practitioners. It is implied that if religion is holding humanity back, so are the adherents, especially when you say you don't understand the problem with your Passover thread. Religion is a fairy tale, though, and it is holding humanity back, and expecting me not to mention either of these things because you don't like them most definitely is asking for a free pass from criticism. It is true that a certain amount of blind faith is needed for some aspects of religion and science to coexist, but at the end of the day, NONE OF US knows the real answer to whether religion is a fairy tale or not. Who is to say there isn't a god who could smite you for speaking out against him tomorrow? You can neither prove nor disprove that fact, nor can I. And I admit that. Can you? Not that it matters. I wouldn't mind if they did. I'd argue the point, and I'd defend what I believe, but I'd never claim they're being "disrespectful" for criticising what I believe and I'd certainly never argue that they shouldn't be allowed to under penalty of being labeled "offensive." I certainly wouldn't try to equate that criticism with persecution of any demographic I happened to be in. Let's see how you respond to the above then... |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 12:50:34 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by AlM on Wed May 14 20:22:47 2014. You are correct. Excellent post. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 12:51:38 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:13:45 2014. You forgot C, which is what the IDF usually does: Call off the attack, even if it means letting the target get away, until collateral damage can be avoided AND protects the IDF forces from having to operate on the ground. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 12:52:24 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:15:34 2014. Your posts prove the claim. Just keep at it. |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Thu May 15 12:54:00 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 12:12:45 2014. "but Israeli policy is not one of apartheid". Then how come you don't condemn what Kerry said? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 12:58:28 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:15:57 2014. Google is your friend |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 12:59:07 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:17:49 2014. Israel has missiles, but they are far more accurate than what you are describing. Where is the proff that their missiles are highly inaccurate? |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 12:59:48 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:19:10 2014. It's a cost of business. It sucks but Israel does far more to avoid killing civilians when they choose B than other countries. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 15 13:00:48 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 14 20:21:00 2014. Stop treating Palestine as if it was an independent state, it is not.The Palestinians have been trying to take Israel's land since May 14, 1948, a fact you can't seem to stomach. Any idea what today is? |
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