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| Re: Myrtle Avenue El (907650) | |
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| (908719) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 13:48:42 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 5 16:44:13 2010. Yeah, but I think the loss of the Myrtle has been less damaging than the 3rd Ave el or the Jamaica Ave el. At least the latter has been addressed with a new subway. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 13:50:11 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by fisk ave jim on Sat Mar 6 11:38:30 2010. The Greater Woodhaven Development Corporation does advocate this, but it's not their #1 priority and the MTA has basically ignored them. My landlord advocates this, I can't tell you how hard I have tried to tell him how foolish an idea it is. |
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| (908721) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 13:52:54 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 6 08:37:38 2010. Probably too expensive. The most realistic plan would be a Franklin Shuttle style rebuild, with some station consolidation and perhaps a transfer to the G at Myrtle/Willoughby and a more convenient, enclosed transfer at Bridge/Jay Sts to both the IND and BMT at Lawrence. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (908723) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 13:54:35 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by ebtmikado on Thu Mar 4 08:00:47 2010. Heh, I didn't know that. |
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| (908725) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 13:55:57 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 5 10:11:07 2010. Especially the Third Ave el. The replacement bus here is inadequate and overwhelmed. Many who use it do not know that there used to be an el and when I inform them, they get angry! |
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| (908728) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 13:59:25 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 5 10:20:41 2010. It's especially galling that the 3rd Ave el was demolished because it provided a perfect feeder line for the SAS, and much of the northern segment was built to dual contract standards, only requiring station platform lengthening. There will NEVER be a replacement subway built for it. |
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| (908747) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970. |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sat Mar 6 15:26:07 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sat Mar 6 11:16:56 2010. I heard a story once where the clerk in a booth on the line left 4 tokens in the aperture overnight. When he woke up in the morning the tokens were gone and the correct change was left in its place. |
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| (908749) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Mar 6 15:29:29 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Mar 6 11:23:34 2010. Some letter combinations made sense:QJ - Brighton-Jamaica RJ - 4th Ave.-Jamaica |
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| (908750) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sat Mar 6 15:31:04 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 13:55:57 2010. I wonder if there are any traces of the Third Ave El still remaining?Outside of the lower level and girders at Gun Hill Road. |
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| (908754) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Mar 6 15:46:06 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 13:59:25 2010. Your right Chris. I was living in The Bronx when the el was torn down and if the neighborhood did anything it went downhill fast.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (908761) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Mar 6 16:24:22 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Mar 6 11:23:34 2010. Yeah, that makes sense ... shame on you. :) |
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| (908762) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Mar 6 16:25:54 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Mar 6 10:56:04 2010. Well ... 75 footers deserve to put on a few pounds ... never got near a triplex. Ever. :( |
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| (908764) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Mar 6 16:26:27 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Mar 6 10:55:08 2010. Yep ... twice. But never got to run any ... |
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| (908765) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sat Mar 6 16:41:14 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Mar 6 15:46:06 2010. I was 5 years old and lived in Queens...so I knew nothing of this...but I believe you when you say that the neighborhood actually got worse. No suprise- w/o good transportation, people would be even mpore likely to move away if they could and not locate businesses there, either. |
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| (908766) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sat Mar 6 16:41:51 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 13:59:25 2010. I have often wondered if the reason for retaining the Bronx portion back in 1955 was to conecct with the planned SAS... |
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| (908769) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Mar 6 16:51:10 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 13:59:25 2010. The northern segment was not built to dual contract standards. It was built by the IRT and like the 9 Av connection to the Jerome Line was specifically designed for operation of elevated cars only although it was slightly stronger than them Manhattan portion of the el to allow for operation of composite cars newly transferred from the subway. |
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Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sat Mar 6 17:01:12 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by daDouce Man on Sat Mar 6 15:31:04 2010. As late as 1993, many of the streetlmaps on 3rd Ave were of the short, stubby type to fit under an el. But I believe they've finally been replaced. |
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| (908772) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 17:02:14 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by randyo on Sat Mar 6 16:51:10 2010. I was always under the impression that the Webster Ave segment was built to subway standard. |
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| (908774) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sat Mar 6 17:05:54 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 6 08:36:01 2010. Also a safe bet...I think. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sat Mar 6 17:09:43 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 6 04:37:57 2010. The J is a great line to ride for fun...elevated all the way to 168th must REALLY have been something. |
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| (908781) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Mar 6 17:17:04 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 17:02:14 2010. Having lived under it on Webster avenue, I can confirm that it was built exactly the same as any other IRT el in the Bronx ... south of Fordham, quite different. |
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| (908791) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Sat Mar 6 18:25:19 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 5 21:23:26 2010. I think you are thinking of the Myrtle and Hudson (5th Ave.) el grade crossing. They had a collision there very early in the operation which shut both lines down for several months.The Myrtle el between Jay and Broadway was built by two different operating companies at two different times, but differing not by much, many changes occurred in that intersection between 1885 and 1891. Looking at Grand and Myrtle now, you wouldn't know how much activity there was there at one time. Must've been a nightmare living over there then with all the heavy construction going on. |
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| (908818) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 6 19:42:27 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Sat Mar 6 18:25:19 2010. View Larger Map Amazingly, slowly Grand St has been abandoned too, it doesn't even cut through any more on one side of Myrtle. |
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| (908879) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Sat Mar 6 22:36:48 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 6 19:42:27 2010. Grand hasn't gone through to Lafayette since the 50's when the city tore down everything on the south side of Myrtle between Hall and Emerson and between DeKalb and Lafeyette to de-slum the area. The stores and 185/195/215 Willoughby took the place of old wood/brick tenements. I lived at 215 for four years.The Lex el ran through the middle of Pratt Institute campus, and the pillar foundations in the street could be seen on Grand Walk into the 00's. Also there's the power feeds still under the east sidewalk. Check the manholes on the side where the Engineering Bldg is. They still say NYCTA on both covers. |
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| (908883) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Mellow One on Sat Mar 6 23:36:59 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Mar 6 10:17:28 2010. The ferry spur was reduced to one track. |
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| (908911) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Mar 7 02:49:52 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 6 13:24:40 2010. Only one side was original until the early 80's. One side was destroyed by fire and rebuilt sometime in the 60's. |
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| (908915) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Mar 7 03:02:09 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Fri Mar 5 19:13:33 2010. It made little sense to rebuild the lower portion of the el because it had no real connection to a subway route. Also, the BMT wasted a lot of money rebuilding the Fulton St el before it secured permission to connect it into their subway network via Ashland Place. |
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| (908984) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sun Mar 7 12:10:14 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 13:55:57 2010. In the 90's when my family and I visited NYC I went back to Ridgewood to see old friends and THEY are still angry the El portion to Jay St are gone and they said plenty of people are mad that that portion of the El was removed, people found that it was a convenient way to that portion of Brooklyn, much better than that bus. Karl M |
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| (908985) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 7 12:23:22 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Mar 7 03:02:09 2010. Money that should have been spent on rebuilding between Atlantic Ave and the newer extension to Lefferts! |
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| (908990) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sun Mar 7 12:42:43 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sun Mar 7 12:10:14 2010. What would your friends think of a B54 LIMITED bus from Broadway/Myrtle to Jay Street? |
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| (909009) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sun Mar 7 15:04:29 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by daDouce Man on Sun Mar 7 12:42:43 2010. I doubt they would like it, they are mostly in their 70's and hate the bus, they just liked getting on the El, and riding straight to Jay St, get on get off. Karl M |
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Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sun Mar 7 15:20:13 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sun Mar 7 15:04:29 2010. I'll reword the question then,What would your friends think of a B54 LIMITED bus from Broadway/Myrtle to Jay Street if TA did this back in 1969? |
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Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 7 15:28:07 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sun Mar 7 12:10:14 2010. Where were these, "...plenty of people are mad that that portion of the El was removed...", when they announced that it was ending service? The October 4th, 1969 closing was on my 21st birthday and I was living in East NY. Never heard/saw anyone protesting its closing! Nothing in the Long Island press, TV, or the City papers! i rode it the day before, on Oct 3rd. |
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Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sun Mar 7 15:30:23 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 7 15:28:07 2010. I've wondered whether there was any organized opposition to closing the MJ and the #8...it doesn't seem like there was much, if any. |
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Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 7 15:47:12 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by MainR3664 on Sun Mar 7 15:30:23 2010. Don't know about #8- Third Ave, but I can't remember any protests about the old Myrtle-Jay line. Several papers, including the Long Island Press had articles about its closing, but no cries to keep it running. I even remember Robert Lape doing a piece about it for ABC Eyewitness News that week. He closed the report with a shot of a "Q" set on Metropolitan Ave. Personally, with the neighborhoods between Broadway and Bridge Street gone and nothing to replace the old "Q"'s, perhaps it was just as well that it closed. |
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Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sun Mar 7 16:40:37 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 7 15:47:12 2010. I guess that refelcted the sentiment of the times. I guess it took the devastation of businesses on Jamaica Avenue some years later to deminstrate that closing the El isn't always such a good idea! |
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Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sun Mar 7 18:00:40 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by daDouce Man on Sun Mar 7 15:20:13 2010. I can't speak for these people but...I'd say they would say " show me " they hate buses but that may change the'er minds. Karl M |
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Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 7 18:01:17 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sun Mar 7 18:00:40 2010. Smart people....Buses suck. |
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| (909042) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sun Mar 7 18:07:39 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 7 15:28:07 2010. I lived at Fresh Pond Rd at the time and I've herd the talk in the A&P supermarket and most of the stores there people were mad about it, but the comment made " you can't fight City Hall " was often made. Karl M |
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Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sun Mar 7 18:30:49 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sun Mar 7 18:07:39 2010. Since that time people must have learned they could fight City Hall and win. |
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Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Mar 7 18:38:04 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by daDouce Man on Sun Mar 7 18:30:49 2010. Or maybe they learned that city hall has nothing to do with transit and ganged up on the Governor and Smallbany where the Empty-yay gets its marching odors ... |
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| (909075) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sun Mar 7 20:10:25 2010, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sun Mar 7 15:04:29 2010. BTW, this one group of people I think now in their mid 80's used to know most of the old C/R's and it guess the trips turned into a real old timers get together on those rides to ans from Jay St, and some would ride the one stop to Metropolitan Ave to finish their talks, I believe it's these things these people miss the most.and frankly I can't blame them for the anger. Karl M |
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| (909851) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 10 00:02:23 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Sat Mar 6 18:25:19 2010. I've done a bit of research regarding the beginnings of the Myrtle by reading the Brooklyn Eagle online. Most but not all your statements are correct.I think you are thinking of the Myrtle and Hudson (5th Ave.) el grade crossing. They had a collision there very early in the operation which shut both lines down for several months. Yes, the grade crossing accident was at Hudson & Myrtle within two days of the start of service to Atlantic & Flatbush Aves. Myrtle Ave service was resumed within one week. The Fifth Ave service was not resumed for several months. The reason was that property was condemned to build a curve at the junction of Hudson & Myrtle. This curve was used to route Fifth Ave trains onto the Myrtle. The tracks on Hudson Ave between Myrtle and Park Ave were no longer used for about one year (more about this later). The Myrtle el between Jay and Broadway was built by two different operating companies at two different times, but differing not by much, many changes occurred in that intersection between 1885 and 1891. All of the Myrtle Ave El from Adams to Ridgewood, as well as the Fifth Ave and Broadway Els) were built by the Union Elevated Company. It was affiliated with the Brooklyn Elevated Company, which built and operated the Lexington Ave El. Under terms of their franchise, the Myrtle up to Grand Ave was to open within 2 years and the section up to Broadway was to open within 3 years. Both these targets were met. The Myrtle was opened in two stages. The first section to Grand Ave then turned off onto Grand Ave and followed the Lexington Ave line to Van Sicklen Ave. The next opening was the ill fated service along Hudson Ave. Service on the upper Myrtle to Broadway opened after the accident at Myrtle & Hudson. Upper Myrtle service operated to Fulton Ferry via the Park Ave El and turned onto the upper Myrtle Ave El at Grand. All Lexington Ave service was routed onto the lower Myrtle Ave El at Grand. Was this routing a result of the accident? There is one article in the Eagle prior to the accident that states that this was the planned service. There was a transfer at Myrtle & Grand to permit Fulton Ferry access for Lexington Ave riders. This transfer proved to be unpopular. As a result the Union Elevated built another curve at Hudson Ave going north from the Myrtle. In December 1889 a new routing emerged. Both the upper Myrtle and the Lexington Ave trains went south along the Myrtle to Hudson Ave. The upper Myrtle trains then turned north onto Hudson Ave (that track that had not been used in service since the accident) and west onto Park Ave to Fulton Ferry. The Lexington Ave and Fifth proceeded along the lower Myrtle to Sands St. This allowed Lexington Ave riders wishing to go to the ferry to get off at Navy St and wait for a ferry bound train without changing platforms. This also marked the end of service on the Park Ave El from Hudson to Myrtle Aves. The Union Elevated and Brooklyn Elevated had merged in the interim, becoming the Brooklyn-Union Elevated. The B-U petitioned for abandonment within a year. There's one mention of a final passenger train inadvertently using the Grand Ave connection to the Park Ave El in 1893. Demolition was well under way. Only about 30 feet of track remained on Grand Ave and there was no bumper. Inexplicably the switch at Grand was left open turning an upper Myrtle train onto Grand Ave. It managed to stop in the nick of time. One final tidbit. Some of the Park Ave El ironwork was used on the Broadway El's extension from Van Sicklen to Cypress Hills. Looking at Grand and Myrtle now, you wouldn't know how much activity there was there at one time. Must've been a nightmare living over there then with all the heavy construction going on. There are quite a few law suits mentioned in the Eagle during construction. |
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| (909855) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Mar 10 00:21:58 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 10 00:02:23 2010. Interesting story ... thanks for the effort! :) |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Mar 10 00:58:17 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Sat Mar 6 22:36:48 2010. Really? NYCTA on manhole covers associated with a line that was abandoned before the establishment of the NYCTA? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Mar 10 01:00:47 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 6 08:37:38 2010. That's exactly what I said for a rebuild of the Myrtle El:In every proposal I have had about that, I have the Myrtle El going underground at Navy Street and joining the Montauge Street line at either Lawrence-Metrotech or Court St, in this case as noted before as an extension of the W train. |
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| (909869) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Mar 10 01:03:32 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 13:52:54 2010. If the Myrtle El had not been abandoned and torn down in 1969-'70, then yes, that would likely have been the most realistic plan, and in fact might have gotten the currently-being-built transfer between Lawrence-Metrotech (R) and Jay Street (A/C/F) built a lot sooner than now. |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Mar 10 01:06:28 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 13:50:11 2010. And that would be a VERY foolish idea:If anything, that line is a reason WHY I would be looking at living there, even if it means dealing with the noise of the El (something I would get used to over time). |
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| (909872) | |
Re: 3rd Avenue El |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Mar 10 01:13:28 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Mar 6 13:03:16 2010. Actually, 3rd Avenue and the blocks east did improve some without the El, but that likely would have happened anyway.As noted before, that line would also have had to been heavily rebuilt in the 1960's and '70s if it had not been torn down. It would have been very interesting to have seen how that line would have been rebuilt, if it would have been done so as a three-track line like the original or would it have been rebuilt as a two-level, four-track line as I would do a rebuild if I got the chance to now? |
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Re: 3rd Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 10 07:27:10 2010, in response to Re: 3rd Avenue El, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Mar 10 01:13:28 2010. Actually, 3rd Avenue and the blocks east did improve some without the El, but that likely would have happened anyway.Yes, 25-30 years later!! Nothing to do with the el being gone. Broadway improved too over the last 10 years...and it's el is still there. |
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