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| Re: Myrtle Avenue El (907650) | |
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| (1127464) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:22:30 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Dec 27 16:14:03 2011. Absolutely. Although I am not as frequent a visitor to Chicago as I would like to be. Walking on Lake or Wabash just wouldn't be the same without the el overhead. |
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| (1127465) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 16:24:13 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:14:52 2011. There's a structure school down in the south Bronx where they do "schoolcar for structures." Dunno much about it, and have never seen it but it has been mentioned here a few times in the past. Empty-yay property. |
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| (1127466) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:24:16 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 16:20:32 2011. Probably, but I wonder why the 17s lasted longer than the rest of the cars in that group even though they were the oldest. |
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| (1127467) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 16:25:50 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:24:16 2011. Maybe they figured out what was wrong in the design and managed to fix it. I was always amused hearing that the 16's were nothing but 17's bolted on to a much heavier carbody. And I'm sure there were plenty of spare parts from all those 16's that went to redbird heaven prematurely. :) |
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| (1127468) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 27 16:27:29 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 16:20:32 2011. Low Ridership+Old Structure+Old "Q" Cars+Bad Neighborhoods (back then)=Demolition. No one protested the Myrtle Ave el's closing on 10/04/69, on my 21st birthday. |
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| (1127470) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:30:50 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by MainR3664 on Sat Mar 6 16:41:51 2010. Doubtful since the SAS would have been IND/BMT standards while the 3 Av El was built to the smaller IRT dimensions. |
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| (1127471) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 16:32:17 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 27 16:27:29 2011. Don't feel bad ... they got by Bronx Third Avenue El too. :( |
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| (1127472) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 27 16:32:23 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:30:50 2011. Someone else in this thread said that the northern part of the Third Avenue el was built to Dual Contracts standards. True or not? |
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| (1127474) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:34:46 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 17:02:14 2010. Although it may have been built to "subway" standards, it would not have been built to full dual contract dimensions since it was specifically intended to be connected only to the existing IRT lines unlike some of the other IRT els which were built to full dual contract BRT/BMT dimensions in anticipation of possible BRT operation of those routes. |
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| (1127475) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 16:35:18 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 16:32:17 2011. "by" should have been "my" ... I don't think anyone would figure out that typo. |
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| (1127476) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 27 16:35:19 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 6 13:59:25 2010. The 5 should have continued to White Plains too, via the old NYW&B. |
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| (1127477) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 16:36:47 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 27 16:32:23 2011. Fordham north onto Webster to Gun Hill. And possibly other parts south. |
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| (1127480) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:39:08 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 27 16:32:23 2011. Dual contract STRUCTURAL standards but not physical dimensions. In fact during the construction of some of the dual contract lines the PSC realized that building extensions that could accommodate larger cars would serve no useful purpose since they would be connected to the original subway with its smaller dimensions. Thus while the upper portion of the Lex Av, Pelham and Jerome lines can accommodate BMT sized cars, the lower 7 Av IRT and Clark St lines cannot even though they were built with slightly improved clearances over the original IRT. |
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| (1127481) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:41:22 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 27 16:35:19 2011. At the time the city took over the Dyre Line it could only operate in the 5 boroughs and by the time the MTA was created which would have allowed operation outside the city, there was not enough NYW&B ROW left to permit such an operation. |
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| (1127482) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Dec 27 16:44:18 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:39:08 2011. it sure looks as if it could..perhaps thats why the Clark st tube was considered for the lirr commuter service from Jamaica..? |
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| (1127483) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:46:51 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 16:25:50 2011. The ME-42 brake valves on the R-16s were very slightly different from those on the R-10s through 15s but they were interchangeable and I saw many R-16 type brake valves in the GOHed R-10s. As for the R-21s and 22s. It seems to me that the initial problems encountered with the R-17s were resolved with the last cars in the group, the R-22s so they should have been the ones retained. |
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| (1127485) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Tue Dec 27 16:49:36 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 16:35:18 2011. We're smarter than you think! :-) |
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| (1127486) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:49:45 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Edwards! on Tue Dec 27 16:44:18 2011. I never heard about that unless it was at a very early time in IRT/LIRR history when the LIRR MP-41s which were identical in dimensions to the IRT GIbbs cars were still running. In later years it was the IND Cranberry St tube that was considered for the LIRR. |
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| (1127489) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:56:55 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 7 15:47:12 2010. I seem to recall reading about a local civic group from one of the neighborhoods served by the el attempting to file a class action suit to force the TA to reinstate service on the el all the way to downtown Bkln. That may explain why unlike the Fulton St el that remained up for many years after the A Line took over in 1956, Myrtle got torn down rather quickly. By the time the case would have been heard the el would have been completely demolished and the court would probably not have demanded its reconstruction. |
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| (1127491) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:58:03 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by bklynsubwaybob on Fri Mar 5 19:11:18 2010. That was also the case with the R-12s assigned to 3 Av also. |
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| (1127493) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Tue Dec 27 17:11:13 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Mar 6 05:21:04 2010. What good would that do? There are very few Q cars left. And what's a Myrtle Av Line without Q cars? |
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| (1127494) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 17:14:23 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:46:51 2011. I imagine body rot took care of the rest ... there's an R16 in working condition in Kingston. They've lit it up with power from the Whitcomb so whenever the day comes that they can electrify, we might see an R16 actually run again. |
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| (1127495) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Tue Dec 27 17:14:44 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sat Mar 6 11:16:56 2010. I don't remember the conductors collecting money although I rode the line (as a railfan, not going anywhere) many times. Never at night though. I even rode it on the last day of operation and |
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| (1127496) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 17:14:58 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Bob Andersen on Tue Dec 27 16:49:36 2011. Just came back from over at OT ... I question your theory. :) |
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| (1127497) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Dave on Tue Dec 27 17:18:36 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 17:14:58 2011. +100! |
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| (1127499) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Tue Dec 27 17:20:44 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Bob Andersen on Mon Dec 26 21:56:30 2011. Wasn't the Saint George past the end of the el, much further than Navy or Vanderbilt? The St George was in Bklyn Heights. |
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| (1127500) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Dj Hammers on Tue Dec 27 17:21:57 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 17:14:23 2011. I have heard that the R16 at the Transit Museum is operational, but I haven't seen it run or had that comment verified so I'm not sure. |
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| (1127501) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 27 17:24:22 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Mar 6 05:21:04 2010. Nobody who lives on/near Myrtle Ave will allow an el to be built! Any thoughts about a Myrtle Ave subway being tied into the "G"? |
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| (1127503) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Dec 27 17:30:28 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 7 15:47:12 2010. You guys...the Myrtle closure was due to a LONG DRAW OUT ISSUE BETWEEN nyc/nys/ ROBERT MOSES/NYCHA..a private investor..Model cities/COOP along Myrtle Avenue..I dont really wanna go tellin it again..but lets say the Myrtle rebuilding project hit a snag..and only portions of the project was completed.. One of the demands was for the elevated train to "disappear"..replaced with a bus line with "RAPID TRANSIT LIKE SERVICE".. Civic Center was built..most of the new Co-ops were built..most of the "projects were built..except for the middle.." and when the el was removed..the "Grand Plans for Myrtle Avenue redevelopment" vanished.. |
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| (1127505) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 27 17:33:48 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Jeff Rosen on Tue Dec 27 17:20:44 2011. I believe the St George was at Henry/Clark, near the Brooklyn Bridge.The address is 100 henry Street. |
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| (1127506) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Dec 27 17:35:35 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Fred G on Thu Mar 4 22:36:49 2010. The J segment has been modified/reinforced to support the weight of the Standards/D types..even the very fat R160S that are used today. |
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| (1127507) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 27 17:46:30 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Edwards! on Tue Dec 27 17:30:28 2011. Robert Moses? As much as I hate the man, Moses' final downfall was his opposition to using Triboro Bridge and Tunnel Authority funds for the new MTA. William Ronan, the head of the new MTA, prevailed and the money went to the MTA. Part of the deal was that Moses would become a onsultant to the new organization. Ronan sucessfully froze out Moses in 1968, a year before the Myrtle Ave el closed! Sorry, but I don't see the connection between the Myrtle Ave el and Robert Moses! |
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| (1127510) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 27 17:54:50 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:56:55 2011. Very similar to the 6th Ave el demolition. Closed- 12/04/38 and demolition began on 01/03/39! |
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| (1127524) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 27 18:55:36 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 27 17:33:48 2011. Which would be closer to Bridge-Jay than to any other Myrtle El stop other than of course Sands. |
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| (1127527) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 27 19:00:44 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Fred G on Thu Mar 4 22:36:49 2010. I wonder: Why was this section not demolished with the rest? |
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| (1127528) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 19:01:12 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Dj Hammers on Tue Dec 27 17:21:57 2011. Well ... FWIW, the one in Kingston has been coming along very well considering how poor the funding is there. |
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| (1127529) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 27 19:03:56 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 15:36:09 2011. What about 5th? Would it have been torn down or also terminated at Flatbush Ave? |
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| (1127532) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 27 19:13:52 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 16:24:13 2011. The el section is in Hunts Point at Oak Point Ave and Tiffany Street. It is from the Jamaica Avenue El section that was torn down around 1990.View Larger Map |
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| (1127536) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 19:40:36 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 27 19:13:52 2011. Yep! That's the one! Forgot where it was, but at least I remembered it exists! Do I get any partial credit for that one? :) |
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| (1127550) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Tue Dec 27 20:12:01 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 27 19:00:44 2011. I have always heard it was retained for stability of the structure at Broadway. |
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| (1127563) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Tue Dec 27 20:33:05 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Mar 7 15:47:12 2010. "Several papers, including the Long Island Press had articles about its closing, but no cries to keep it running."Here is the Newsday cover:
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| (1127611) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 28 00:17:36 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by randyo on Tue Dec 27 16:22:30 2011. I was more thinking of for instance Southport on the Ravenswood (Brown) line. (near where I stay w/old friends) The street has become far trendier w/outposts of high fashion outfits, overpriced beer joints and the ubiquitous al fresco tables at restaurants. |
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| (1127635) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Dec 28 10:58:32 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 27 19:40:36 2011. Just brain storming here.Why weren't the removed sections of Jamaica el used to install a center track in the remaining el? Out source the labor to China. Get all new made in China electronics and signal equipment. Just storming avid |
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| (1127636) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Dec 28 11:05:23 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Dec 28 10:58:32 2011. Probably for the same reason the center express track was never installed on that part of the elevated in the first place. |
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| (1127643) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 28 11:31:15 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Dec 28 11:05:23 2011. Too many curves, the parts would not be interchangable. Besides, modern steel is much better than the stuff they used in 1917, I don't even think they could have legally done that.The steel used to prop up the crossover near Queens Blvd was new. |
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| (1127681) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Dec 28 14:48:51 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Jeff Rosen on Tue Dec 27 17:11:13 2011. With such a reconstruction as is being discussed, Myrtle would run with R-160s or similar equipment. |
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| (1127682) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Wed Dec 28 14:52:44 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Jeff Rosen on Tue Dec 27 17:11:13 2011. What fun would that be then? |
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| (1127683) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Dec 28 14:54:56 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 27 19:03:56 2011. I think that the 5 Av El was, unlike Myrtle made largely redundant by the opening of the 4 Av subway which not substantially duplicated the el but actually provided service to areas the el did not serve past 65 St at the south end and midtown Manhattan at the north as well as serving the downtown Bkln and City Hall ares. |
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| (1127685) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Dec 28 15:00:33 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 27 17:54:50 2011. The main difference being that there was a parallel subway line a block away on 7 Av and within a relatively short time the el was replaced by the iND 6 Av subway Line. Myrtle had no comparable quality rapid transit line to replace it. |
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| (1127686) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Dec 28 15:13:19 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Jeff Rosen on Tue Dec 27 17:11:13 2011. This version would use mainly the R160s (obviously, this incarnation would have the tracks much stronger from the old version) along with whatever other 60' cars come after that. I'm assuming 600' trains for this version of the line. |
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