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| Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 (907650) | |
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| (1127694) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by GIS Man on Wed Dec 28 15:58:24 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 27 17:33:48 2011. The entrance to the Clark St (2)(3) station is in the St. George Hotel.Bob |
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| (1127696) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 16:04:29 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by randyo on Wed Dec 28 15:00:33 2011. I was only comparing demolition times, nothing else. Speaking of the Pitkin Ave demolition, the western part of it was still up in 1960. My great uncle drove his new 1960 Impala down Pennsylvania Ave from Jamaica Ave and the structure was still there. Chicken wire covering the station stairs! |
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| (1127700) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 16:11:54 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Mar 7 03:02:09 2010. And let us not forget that steel cars were too heavy for the Brooklyn Bridge. Wasn't the Sands St loop closed in 1932 and demolished in 1935? Should have demolished the 5th Ave el, while they were at it, since it had the lowest ridership of any elevated line, IRT or BMT! If it were up to me, I would have made it a condition to connect the Mantague tunnel to the Nassau line. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1127702) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 16:17:26 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Dec 28 11:05:23 2011. Plus, a 3 track would still bottleneck into 2 tracks at Crescent and Fulton- unless you planned on that express track above the structure between Crescent St and Alabama Ave! |
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| (1127703) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 16:18:24 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 27 18:55:36 2011. Correct! |
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| (1127708) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Dec 28 16:33:37 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 16:04:29 2011. I didn't recall how much after 1956 that portion of the structure remained up but I do know it was an unusually long time for a structure to remain up after service had been ended. I recall seeing the structure just west of Hudson St in the summer of 1958 and some time after that I remember seeing the abandoned Rockaway Av station from the S/B platform at Bway Jct. |
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| (1127710) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 16:43:52 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by randyo on Wed Dec 28 16:33:37 2011. Demolition began on Jan 10th, 1958. It started at 75th Street, just west of the new subway connection for the IND. I know for a fact that the Pitkin el around Penn Ave was still up because I saw it myself in 1960! |
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| (1127711) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Dec 28 16:45:25 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 16:04:29 2011. I remember the Fare zones had coal burning Potbelly stoves for heat in the winter. So did the Dual Contract farezones. |
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| (1127715) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Dec 28 17:18:30 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 16:17:26 2011. I'd tried to run a single El, Airport train style, down Jamaica Ave , to rejoin at Eastern Parkway.Convert Woodhaven to an Express station. |
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| (1127725) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 18:01:56 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Dec 28 17:18:30 2011. What really bothers me is why there are no express stations anywhere on Jamaica Ave, at Woodhaven Blvd or anywhere else. Perhaps, they gave up on everything when they decided not to continue that express ramp just west of Alabama Ave. |
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| (1127726) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Dec 28 18:02:12 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Dec 28 17:18:30 2011. Something like that was actually planned. |
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| (1127729) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 18:07:19 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by randyo on Wed Dec 28 18:02:12 2011. Just hard to believe that a long stretch of track along Jamaica Ave and along Fulton Street, east of B'way Jct, and not one station set up for express service! |
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| (1127730) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Dec 28 18:12:53 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 16:43:52 2011. It seems like most of it was up for a good long period. The reason I remember the summer of 1958 is because for a brief period that year, the TA ran a weekend Rockaway Special from 42/8 lower to Playland station using a train of R-16s and I rode it one Sunday that year with my family and I remember seeing the structure west of Hudson St still up. Since I lived in uptown Manhattan at the time, I didn't frequent that part of the transit system until the following year when I had been in high school for a while and my mother finally allowed me to ride the subway alone. Since I had mentioned that I saw the abandoned Rockaway Av station from the 14 St Line that would place my observation of it at least 1959 and possibly later as you have indicated. |
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| (1127731) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Dec 28 18:20:41 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 18:07:19 2011. Since there were plans to relocate the Jamaica LIne to Jamaica Av west of Cypress Hills via a completely new structure, it's likely that an entirely new Cypress Hills station might have been built immediately west of Crescent St and that station would probably have been built as an express station. The rebuilt portion of the Fulton St el had no express stations between Nostrand and Atlantic and even lacked any sort of a station in the immediate area of Bway Jct. From some of the documentation I have seen, had the remaining portion of Fulton been upgraded Franklin would have been an express stop but I have seen no info as to any other express stops on a rebuilt Fulton el between Franklin and Sands St although one should have been planned for somewhere in downtown Bkln either at Flatbush or Adams if not both. |
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| (1127732) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 18:22:21 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by randyo on Wed Dec 28 18:12:53 2011. Don't feel too bad about it. I've asked people who lived near Pitkin if they knew anything about when the el finally came down and nobody could remember. Also tried some old East New York sites, but nothing! |
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| (1127733) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 18:27:27 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by randyo on Wed Dec 28 18:20:41 2011. Are there provisions to allow a conection under Jamaica Ave, at Pennsylvania and Jamaica, in the IND tunnels? |
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| (1127744) | |
Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 19:07:15 2011, in response to Re: Nostrand Ave and Myrtle 1970, posted by GIS Man on Wed Dec 28 15:58:24 2011. I know! Also there was one from the IND High St station, right? |
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| (1127745) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 28 19:10:09 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 16:11:54 2011. The Sands Street Loop closed to passenger traffic in 1933, but it wasnt demolished until the early 40s. The upper level within Sands Street station survived to the end of elevated operation. |
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| (1127755) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by MELLOW ONE on Wed Dec 28 19:32:31 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 28 19:10:09 2011. So, did the 5th/3rd Ave and Culver trains terminate at the lower until the end of service on the 5th Ave El in 1940? |
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| (1127768) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 28 21:04:14 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by MELLOW ONE on Wed Dec 28 19:32:31 2011. I don't know what the service pattern was in the last years, though I might be able to find an ERA rundown if I dig. I do know that no later than 1937 the Bay Ridge el was a shuttle only to 36th Street except rush hours, all service on the 5th being provided by Culver trains. I don't know offhand which services went through to Park Row and which ended at Sands Street. The BMT did build a tail track west of Sands that trains could be turned on. |
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| (1127771) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 21:09:11 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 28 19:10:09 2011. I have seen pictures of Sands Street between 1935-1940. The semi-circular elevated loop trackage was torn down. The arrival and departure loop platforms remained, but the stairways leading to them were removed, I believe, also in 1935. |
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| (1127773) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 21:13:20 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 28 21:04:14 2011. After the loop tracks were closed in 1932 or 1933, only Lexington Ave and fulton Street trains went to Park Row. The Myrtle Ave and Culver el (nobody called it the 5th Ave el back then) terminated at Sands Street. |
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| (1127776) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Dec 28 21:37:08 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 18:27:27 2011. There are turnouts just East of Bway EastNY , but I have no idea where and to what they were to go.They appear to have been built in during the original construction. With there proximity to the Jamaica line, I guess that was the intention. Key word is "guess", being that the tunnels to Euclid were constructed then, so it rules out a connection to the Fulton El over Pitkin ave. avid |
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| (1127783) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Wed Dec 28 22:34:25 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 18:07:19 2011. Perhaps, but, of course, I can't be positive, a "super express" service was planned. |
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| (1127788) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by MELLOW ONE on Wed Dec 28 22:53:26 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 28 21:04:14 2011. I do not believe that there was any space left for a tail track West of the Terminal unless an xover was installed to facilitate turnbacks. The four terminal tracks merged into the two bridge tracks. The 5th, Culver and Bay Ridge trains had to come in on the Myrtle El ROW at Concord St once the upper loop was taken out of (revenue) service. I have couple stub and demolition pics of the upper level loop all dated 1943. |
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| (1127796) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Dec 29 00:20:50 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Dec 28 21:37:08 2011. I thought they might have been for a proposed route under Jamaica Ave. There was never any proposed connection to the unrebuilt el structure over Pitkin Ave. |
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| (1127813) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Dec 29 04:38:03 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 6 08:36:01 2010. And if that had happened, the now-former V line (now combined with the M) would likely still exist (as we would never had had current M line), though as noted I also suspect with the Myrtle El, the elevated portion would have ended past Navy Street, joining the Montauge Street line at what is now Jay Street-Metrotech (replacing the Bridge-Jay station, with before the current transfer to the A/C/F being built an OOS MetroCard transfer to that) before continuing to Manhattan as what would now be the W train to Astoria as the former W line actually did (and also to Whitehall Street late nights and weekends unlike the old W). |
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| (1127834) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Dec 29 09:40:02 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Dec 29 00:20:50 2011. I agree, the subway beneath Pitkin ruled that out.Connection to Canarsie line? Connection to 14Th St Line? Connection to LIRR beneath Atlantic to Jamaica? Connection to LIRR north, or south, to Queens, or to Brooklyn? I'd favor the Atlantic connection to Jamaica. Populations were moving east. Again , just guessing. avid |
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| (1127837) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Dec 29 09:57:01 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Dec 28 21:09:11 2011. I have that the contract to tear down the loop, which went over part of the Fulton Street Line, wasn't let until 1941, and for the structure on the other side in 1943. |
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| (1127845) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Dec 29 10:27:26 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Dec 29 00:20:50 2011. There were 2 reasons for the turnouts.#1 was to run under jamaica ave.as a subway[stupid]in competion with the jamaica EL.#2 ramp up & take over the EL at cresent st. |
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| (1127850) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Dec 29 10:33:53 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Dec 29 10:27:26 2011. Is Crescent St. on Fulton or Jamaica?Where would it run under, before ramping up? Would it have connected before, or after Crescent? Would it have been a merge or capture? avid |
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| (1127854) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Dec 29 10:38:07 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Dec 29 10:33:53 2011. jamaica ave.& cresent st.a capture.it was to run under jamaica ave.I,ve got the contract drawings showing the belmouths for a future jamaica ave.subway. |
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| (1127867) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Dec 29 11:36:54 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Dec 29 10:38:07 2011. Thanks for lighting up a dim corner transit history.That's about where the "Dual Contract" El structure begins as it heads east. A good connection point, just like where the Fulton Line connected to the Liberty Ave Line . i.e. where the dual Contract structure began, and avoiding, or eliminating sharp curves. How far would have a Jamaica Ave. subway been under ground? Was it just the portion from B'way East NY to Crescent? avid |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Dec 29 11:40:16 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Fred G on Thu Mar 11 18:22:35 2010. For everyone`s information:according to an old ERA bulletin it was determined the a 3 car set of BMT standard`s & a 3 car set of D types could go over the brooklyn bridge. |
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| (1127869) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Dec 29 11:43:04 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Dec 29 11:36:54 2011. if it was a subway,all the way to 168st.as an EL it was to ramp up & join the jamaica el at cresent st.so maybe a mile of subway untill the el conn. |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Dec 29 11:52:29 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Dec 29 11:43:04 2011. Any stations planned for that stretch? |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Dec 29 12:03:54 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Dec 29 11:52:29 2011. Don`t know,very little is written on this.I would assume stations were planned. |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Dec 29 12:55:20 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Dec 29 12:03:54 2011. So, the IND would run its subway under Jamaica Ave from ENY to Cypress Hills. Would the Jamaica el have meet it via a subway portal on or near Crescent St, between Fulton St and Jamaica Ave? Post-Unification, of course! |
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| (1127905) | |
Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Dec 29 12:58:57 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Dec 29 11:40:16 2011. But, not a 6 or 8 car set, right? Normal subway train lengths for the BMT subway. |
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| (1127906) | |
Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Dec 29 13:00:04 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Dec 29 12:55:20 2011. Big if here.If that where to have happened, would a center track been installed? We'll never know. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Dec 29 16:15:10 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Dec 29 04:38:03 2011. Maybe not. If Myrtle still existed to Bridge St and there was demand for it, the K train probably would have provided service between E/Pky and Ctl during the hours the M now operates. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Dec 29 17:22:39 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Dec 29 04:38:03 2011. Are you guys sure that the old section of the Myrtle Ave el could hold 8 steel subway cars? From what I recall, those support pillars were not as thick as the rebuilt sections of the Broadway or upper Myrtle. |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Dec 29 17:27:00 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Dec 29 10:27:26 2011. i thought it was Cypress Hills. |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Dec 29 20:29:23 2011, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Edwards! on Thu Dec 29 17:27:00 2011. Actually, the Cypress Hills Station is at Crescent St, just at Jamaica Av rather than Fulton St. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Dec 30 12:06:15 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Dec 29 12:58:57 2011. from what i,ve read,that is correct. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by andre on Sat Dec 31 09:17:54 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Mar 10 01:00:47 2010. i have a website where i can get a petition to have the myrtle av el rebuilt go to care2 petition site |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat Dec 31 09:38:49 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by andre on Sat Dec 31 09:17:54 2011. We might get it rebuilt if we can tell people well abandon it after six months and turn it into a strolling park for yuppies, like the High Line. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 31 14:25:22 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by SLRT on Sat Dec 31 09:38:49 2011. face reality, guys! Nothing is ever going to be built over Myrtle Ave. Remote possibility that a subway line connecting to the el at B'way/Myrtle, but NOEL! |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat Dec 31 16:09:53 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 31 14:25:22 2011. If a subway line is built under Myrtle we will all be watching it from somewhere else. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 31 16:15:05 2011, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat Dec 31 16:09:53 2011. Six feet under! |
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