|
|
| Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar (1173451) | |
 |
|
| Home > OTChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
Page 9 of 22 |
||
|
| (1181179) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:18:24 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:45:40 2014. Go back and read the last few posts in order and you'll see where you went wrong. |
|
|
| (1181180) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:18:39 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:44:52 2014. If Obama is liberal, then how come we don't have single payer health care?If Clinton is liberal, then how do you explain Gramm-Leach-Bliley? That you're so far right of center that you think Obama and Clinton are liberal certainly explains the pig-headed ignorance you've been parading about in this thread. |
|
|
| (1181181) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:18:54 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:44:12 2014. ...and that's another straw man brutally ripped to shreds by your persistent lack of ability or willingness to actually read and understand what I say without adding a bunch of random assumptions to it. |
|
|
| (1181182) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:19:07 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:43:56 2014. ...and my point has sailed over your head at an altitude of 35,000 feet.It's my fault; I should have known by now that you wouldn't pick up on anything more subtle than an anvil to the face. |
|
|
| (1181183) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:19:25 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:43:28 2014. My point is that Israel has nukes and everybody knows it, yet they continue to effectively deny it— so the statement that they have disengaged needs to be taken with all the grains of salt due to someone with a reputation for dishonesty.Though the blockade is frankly a bit hard to deny. "Protecting its border" is a fun euphemism, though. |
|
|
| (1181184) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:19:54 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:39:17 2014. Which brings us to today, where Palestine is being choked by an Israeli blockade, Jordan and Egypt seem to be keeping well enough to themselves, and there is no war— just Israel and Palestine trading terrorist attacks back and forth. Meanwhile, Palestine exists in a limbo state where its inhabitants are not Israeli citizens because it's a foreign country but Israel can control it because it's not a country.My point is that Israel can't have it both ways— they need to claim the territories or leave them alone. ...especially because many of us understand exactly what you are saying vis a vis Israel, even if you yourself do not. Given how many straw men you have ripped to shreds, it's fairly clear that you don't have the slightest clue what I'm saying. |
|
|
| (1181185) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:20:38 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:30:51 2014. There is no way to bypass Hamas in the Gaza Strip, so that approach is a non-starter.No way, or you have not found a way? I've already explained why annexing the West Bank outright didn't happen immediately after 1967 and wouldn't be a good idea now. It's been awhile. Please reiterate. I suggest you cut out your insistence that Israel not be a Jewish state, Israel was created to be a Jewish state. And America was created to be a slave state. And France was created to be a monarchy. We've managed to overcome that primitive nonsense. You show your true colors when you write "the adherence to religion has never made anything better, and frankly, it's the 21st century, not the 12th— tying your identity to a religion is embarrassing." Indeed. If asked what you consider the defining aspects of your identity, the answer should not involve which foods, recreational acts, or rituals you believe a magic man told you to perform or abstain from. That doing as much would be embarrassing is a fact manifestly obvious to people not doing it themselves. |
|
|
| (1181186) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:20:46 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:11:35 2014. Then what did the poor scarecrows do to deserve such a merciless beating? |
|
|
| (1181187) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:20:54 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:10:16 2014. Obviously not Gaza.You would hardly be the first person to be blissfully (or, more likely, deliberately) unaware of the crap his country is pulling. |
|
|
| (1181189) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:22:34 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:09:36 2014. It is true that some aspects of Israeli policy vis a vis the Palestinians are problematic, but you continue to ignore the fact that Palestinian policy vis a vis Israel is unacceptable if a peace agreement is ever to be reached.What did that poor straw man ever do to you? Because at present, Israel is the ONLY Jewish state in the world... So? ...and it is important that Jews, like other religions, have a place where their religion makes up the majority... Why? ...their holidays are national holidays... Why do they (or anybody) need government endorsement of their religion? That seems primitive and backwards to say the least. ...their culture is the national culture... I thought Judaism was a religion. Now it's a culture too? ...their language is the national language... And now it's a language? ...and where they can flee to if they find themselves persecuted somewhere else. There are plenty of countries to flee to if one starts oppressing. The simple fact of the matter is that no religion is entitled to control a country. Anywhere in the world. Ever. A single religion's adherents are likely to make up the majority of a given country's population given that most people follow the religion their parents told them to, but that's not the same thing as having a "Jewish State" and a "Christian State" and a "Muslim State." It's just natural demographic trends. Said natural demographic trends are also the reason Jews are unlikely to make up the majority of any country's population— it's sort of a niche interest, far less popular than the two fan sequels that rose to popularity through conquest, and not making up the majority of any country's population when you make up less than 1% of the world population is just how it works. The idea that a state needs to be established for the specific purpose of enforcing a Jewish majority within its borders is absurd. Overall, there are almost certainly more atheists than Jews worldwide— especially if you count the apatheists who identify with the majority religion of their country but don't practice it and would admit they don't believe it if they actually thought about it. If Israel is going to be an artificially enforced Jewish State™ then there should be at least two Humanist States™ for all of us nonreligious people to go to— and the distinction between rational humanism and religiosity is much greater than the distinction between Judaism and, say, Christianity (which as far as I can tell are basically the same thing anyway). |
|
|
| (1181190) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:22:42 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Gamera on Wed May 7 00:06:08 2014. I have never seen any Hamas propaganda, let alone believed it.I can't be bothered to watch your video, can you summarise the salient points? |
|
|
| (1181193) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 02:25:29 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 6 22:38:26 2014. Also, WRT your point about the right of return two posts up, the law of return only applies to Jews.Trouble is, the Palestinians have argued on numerous occasions that they have their own right of return. |
|
|
| (1181214) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 03:09:30 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:20:38 2014. There is no way to bypass Hamas in the Gaza Strip, so that approach is a non-starter.No way, or you have not found a way? That's crazy! Hamas is the central authority in Gaza, recognized by the people who live there as such, complete with their own police and security forces. Yet you want Israel, towards whom the residents are hostile, to just walk in and arbitrarily start building infrastructure without consulting with the central authority? That's like having the Chinese travel over to California and start building power plants, highways and aqueducts without speaking to the city, state, and federal governments first. The people would rightly take it as tantamount to an invasion, or at the very least see it as an attempt to undermine Hamas' authority. Either way, open hostilities are almost certainly going to break out. |
|
|
| (1181217) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 03:16:45 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 03:09:30 2014. Yet you want Israel, towards whom the residents are hostile, to just walk in and arbitrarily start building infrastructure without consulting with the central authority?Yet another straw man hopelessly ripped to shreds. That's like having the Chinese travel over to California and start building power plants, highways and aqueducts without speaking to the city, state, and federal governments first. I don't think anyone is proposing that. More like, China offers to build power plants, schools, and maybe a high speed rail network and people accept that offer. If the locals and landowners agree to the construction, the government would have a hard time stopping it without making themselves into bigger villains than China. |
|
|
| (1181223) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 03:34:58 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 03:16:45 2014. If the locals and landowners agree to the construction, the government would have a hard time stopping it without making themselves into bigger villains than China.Given that the Palestinian feelings toward Israel range from distrust to hate, way more than their feelings toward their corrupt central authority, the reason they should trust Israel to march in and do this is, what? |
|
|
| (1181226) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 05:41:55 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 03:34:58 2014. No one else is.Sure it's not going to work on Day 1, but if the offer is open (and Israel is not choking them with blockades) then eventually basic economic interest will win out— either the lure of functioning infrastructure will be tempting enough to accept regardless of its source, or it will spur a change in leadership so that they can have a functioning society without needing Israel to do anything for them. With luck, an end to the blockade will cause "I need to kill you before you starve me to death" animosity to slowly morph into "I can be so much better than you" rivalry. But then, I am known for giving humanity too much credit on occasion. |
|
|
| (1181244) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed May 7 09:03:44 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed May 7 00:45:40 2014. WMATAGMOAGH, you have articulated yourself well against Nilet. All that being said, I am still baffled why you want to appease these so-called palestinians, and give away what is rightfully Israeli land. |
|
|
| (1181247) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 09:43:08 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed May 7 09:03:44 2014. Really? A lot of straw men died horrible deaths to make his arguments which, while not technically a problem of articulation, does not exactly help his case.Though it figures you would consider "merely" impoverishing the Palestinians through blockades to be "appeasing" them. Jewish supremacist and all that. |
|
|
| (1181250) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed May 7 09:57:16 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 09:43:08 2014. Is your name WMATAGMOAGH? |
|
|
| (1181252) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 10:04:49 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed May 7 09:57:16 2014. Are you participating in a conversation? |
|
|
| (1181253) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed May 7 10:11:54 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 10:04:49 2014. Not with you. |
|
|
| (1181258) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 10:51:10 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 02:22:34 2014. There are plenty of countries to flee to if one starts oppressing.You'd think that. But just how many countries are really willing to take in a 6- or 7-figure number of Jewish refugees at once? The last time Jews had to flee at that rate, other countries didn't even come close to absorbing that many. The rest ended up stuck or even sent back, and a big portion of them were subsequently exterminated. Hence the creation of Israel, a place where Jews can flee to. The simple fact of the matter is that no religion is entitled to control a country. If the vast majority of the people vote for a country like that, why shouldn't they have it? then there should be at least two Humanist States™ for all of us nonreligious people to go to If you can enough people together and a nice plot of land delegated to you, go for it. |
|
|
| (1181268) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 12:25:45 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed May 7 10:11:54 2014. If you posted in this thread, then you are. |
|
|
| (1181274) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Mitch45 on Wed May 7 12:37:58 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:47:14 2014. Israel left Gaza with its infrastructure intact. Hamas blew it up. Can you give me a reason why Israel should rebuild it?And what obligation does Israel have toward "Palestine", wherever that might be? Israel is not preventing the Palestinians from having their own state. The Palestinians have been offered their own state many times - they refuse to take it unless ALL of their terms are met. That is the chief cause of the stalemate. Believe me when I tell you that the Israeli government would like nothing more than to take the money it spends on national defense and put in into infrastructure, technology, et al. |
|
|
| (1181280) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed May 7 12:54:49 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 12:25:45 2014. Then I am ignoring you. |
|
|
| (1181284) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 13:06:53 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed May 7 12:54:49 2014. No you're not. You're responding to me. That's sort of the opposite of ignoring me. |
|
|
| (1181285) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 13:08:01 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Wed May 7 12:37:58 2014. And what obligation does Israel have toward "Palestine", wherever that might be?Let's start with not impoverishing them with blockades. That's a good start, innit? |
|
|
| (1181286) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Mitch45 on Wed May 7 13:09:13 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 13:08:01 2014. And why do you think those blockades were put there? For laughs? |
|
|
| (1181289) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed May 7 13:15:09 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 13:06:53 2014. Ignore. |
|
|
| (1181322) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 15:03:34 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed May 7 13:15:09 2014. Response. |
|
|
| (1181325) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 15:05:10 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Wed May 7 13:09:13 2014. It hardly matters. |
|
|
| (1181329) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 15:16:39 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 10:51:10 2014. But just how many countries are really willing to take in a 6- or 7-figure number of Jewish refugees at once?And where, exactly are these million Jewish refugees coming from? You can probably find a million members of a demographic being oppressed in a particular area right now— how come Jews are so special they get an artificially enforced country on the off-chance they might be oppressed in the future? If the vast majority of the people vote for a country like that, why shouldn't they have it? Because there are individual rights not subject to majority vote. Come on, you know this. A majority of Americans might well vote to make America a Christian nation if they could but I doubt you'd support that. If you can enough people together and a nice plot of land delegated to you, go for it. Oh I'm sure I could find plenty of people who would rather have a country not controlled by fundies and aristocrats. So how do I get the plot of land delegated to us? |
|
|
| (1181339) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 15:31:23 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 05:41:55 2014. Actually, somebody else is:Link It should be interesting to see what happens to the project. it will spur a change in leadership so that they can have a functioning society without needing Israel to do anything for them. Let's set aside the very real possibility that militants will use every opportunity to kidnap or kill Israeli workers, and that the security costs to protect them will be astronomical. What guarantee that the militant leadership will be changed after all that? With luck, an end to the blockade will cause "I need to kill you before you starve me to death" animosity How do you know that's the main motivation for the animosity, and not "I need to kill you because you humiliated bigger Arab militaries multiple times in battle already?" That reason has been around longer than the current "oppression". |
|
|
| (1181344) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 16:04:07 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 15:16:39 2014. And where, exactly are these million Jewish refugees coming from??? That's the Jewish population of the former Jewish state whose change in demographics has put in a majority of people who have been anti-Semites for decades. I ask again, which countries do you think will take in those refugees? What historical proof do you have that they will? how come Jews are so special they get an artificially enforced country on the off-chance they might be oppressed in the future? Why do you think it's an "off-chance"? They HAVE been oppressed in the recent past, anti-Semitism is alive and well in the present and shows no sign of dissipating in the future. Why shouldn't they get together to do something about it? Six million people died just because they were Jewish, and because the countries of the world largely failed them when they tried to escape. After that, would you decide to put your fate into the hands of other countries again? Because there are individual rights not subject to majority vote. Come on, you know this. A majority of Americans might well vote to make America a Christian nation if they could but I doubt you'd support that. No, they ARE subject to majority vote, at least indirectly. If by some horrid chance enough religious conservative lawmakers make it into the executive and legislative branches, there is a very real chance they can amend the Constitution to declare a state religion. That's the basis of how conservative pundits successfully spread FUD about the "Islamization of America" - it contains a (tiny) grain of truth which makes it look plausible. The point is, any change can be done IF you get a big enough voting majority. So how do I get the plot of land delegated to us? That's your homework assignment. I suggest you start with money and tack on political connections. |
|
|
| (1181370) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 16:57:06 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 16:04:07 2014. That's the Jewish population of the former Jewish state whose change in demographics has put in a majority of people who have been anti-Semites for decades.?? I ask again, which countries do you think will take in those refugees? What historical proof do you have that they will? I ask again, where are these refugees coming from? Because I don't see any countries that Jews are fleeing from en masse. Why do you think it's an "off-chance"? They HAVE been oppressed in the recent past, anti-Semitism is alive and well in the present and shows no sign of dissipating in the future. Jews are hardly the only demographic to have been oppressed in the recent past— I'd rather be Jewish in America in the 50s than black. Prejudice lingers, obviously, but Jews today face a lot less risk of oppression and violence than plenty of other demographics that aren't having artificially controlled countries set aside for them. Why shouldn't they get together to do something about it? Oppressed demographics are getting together and doing something about their situation all the time, yet it's only the Jews who have demanded an artificially controlled country for their exclusive use. When you can point to the Romani State on a map or show me which chunks of North America have been set aside as nation-states in the modern sense of the term which are reserved for the exclusive use of various First Nations, then the insistence on a dedicated Jewish State will seem less odd. Six million people died just because they were Jewish, and because the countries of the world largely failed them when they tried to escape. After that, would you decide to put your fate into the hands of other countries again? At least tens of thousands of Romani were killed in the same places by the same people for the same reasons. Meanwhile, America had segregation (and de facto semi-slavery) as a matter of course, plus the racially motivated imprisonment of anybody with Japanese descent. Worldwide, women were considered servants, domestic workers, and fetus incubators. If you came out as gay, being declared mentally ill was probably the best outcome that you could expect. So basically, I wouldn't put my fate into the hands of anybody in the 1940s. Thankfully, society has moved on since then. So you're claiming we need to go through all manner of political nonsense to create and enforce a dedicated Jewish State™ because antisemitic genocide campaigns that are not currently happening might potentially happen again in spite of 70 years of gradual historical progress, and if they do then we can't trust any other countries to accept refugees because the relatively primitive people of the 1940s didn't. No, they ARE subject to majority vote, at least indirectly. If by some horrid chance enough religious conservative lawmakers make it into the executive and legislative branches, there is a very real chance they can amend the Constitution to declare a state religion. That's the basis of how conservative pundits successfully spread FUD about the "Islamization of America" - it contains a (tiny) grain of truth which makes it look plausible. You're completely missing the point. I didn't say that the Christianists couldn't physically enforce their preferred brand of theocracy, I said that it would be wrong (and you seem to agree). I pointed this out to draw a parallel between a Christian majority electing a Christian theocracy that infringes on the rights of non-Christians and a Jewish majority electing a Jewish theocracy that infringes on the rights of non-Jews (which you seem to support). That's your homework assignment. I suggest you start with money and tack on political connections. So then, you admit that Israel is a product of money and connections - effectively, a "might makes right" approach - and not because there is any genuine legal or moral need for a dedicated Jewish State™ after all? |
|
|
| (1181371) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 16:57:10 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 15:31:23 2014. Actually, somebody else isBest of luck to them. What guarantee that the militant leadership will be changed after all that? There are never any guarantees of anything and it's absurd to expect them. How do you know that's the main motivation for the animosity, and not "I need to kill you because you humiliated bigger Arab militaries multiple times in battle already?" That's the sort of motivation that's likely to drive political leaders and other "elites" but less likely to be a factor for people more concerned with daily survival. |
|
|
| (1181393) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by TerrApin Station on Wed May 7 17:38:57 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 15:05:10 2014. Yes it does matter. |
|
|
| (1181396) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Gamera on Wed May 7 17:52:25 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 15:16:39 2014. Because there are individual rights not subject to majority vote. Come on, you know this.You have got to be kidding if you believe this! A Moslem majority in Israel could easily "vote" to amend the constitution and declare an Islamic state. Name one Arab state that respects Jews and would let them live in peace within their borders. It is not hard to predict what would happen if an Islamic majority were to take over the government in Israel A majority of Americans might well vote to make America a Christian nation if they could but I doubt you'd support that. That is theoretically possible BUT NOT PROBABLE... Given sufficient power and votes a constitutional amendment could be passed repealing the guarantees of freedom of religion that are in the constitution. Just because it is highly improbable here does not mean that it is improbable in other countries - particularly those where the people vote for theocratic parties / leaders... (Ayatollahs in Iran, Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt, etc...) |
|
|
| (1181410) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 18:50:28 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 16:57:06 2014. I ask again, where are these refugees coming from? Because I don't see any countries that Jews are fleeing from en masse.Because many of them who needed to flee did so. And the majority of them went to a country called Israel. If Israel isn't the state which Jews of all stripes can emigrate to, where do you propose they go? And if Israel stopped being the Jewish state it is now and turned against its population, where do you propose the Jews go then? Jews today face a lot less risk of oppression and violence than plenty of other demographics that aren't having artificially controlled countries set aside for them. The US has gotten better about it, but Jews still face it around the world. And just because other demographics haven't created their own countries (and others have, or at least tried, BTW) doesn't mean that doing so is wrong or that those other demographics don't want it. I pointed this out to draw a parallel between a Christian majority electing a Christian theocracy that infringes on the rights of non-Christians and a Jewish majority electing a Jewish theocracy that infringes on the rights of non-Jews (which you seem to support). I wouldn't necessarily want to live in a theocracy, but my point is that it is THEIR country, not MINE. THEY voted to make it a Jewish state, and that is their business. And for a supposed theocracy, it treats its non-Jewish citizens amazingly well. Oppressed demographics are getting together and doing something about their situation all the time, yet it's only the Jews who have demanded an artificially controlled country for their exclusive use. When you can point to the Romani State on a map or show me which chunks of North America have been set aside as nation-states in the modern sense of the term which are reserved for the exclusive use of various First Nations, then the insistence on a dedicated Jewish State will seem less odd. Wow, that's a lot of qualifications just so you can exclude the Native American tribes who are semi-autonomous and even have their own governments. And otherwise, you're still wrong about Israel being for Jews "exclusive use" (the Muslim Arabs and Christians living there most likely will disagree with you). As for a dedicated state for a demographic, not odd at all. Go to a map, and look for Yugoslavia. Or Czechoslovakia. Or count how countries have the word "Sudan" in them. Thankfully, society has moved on since then. So you're claiming we need to go through all manner of political nonsense to create and enforce a dedicated Jewish State™ because antisemitic genocide campaigns that are not currently happening might potentially happen again in spite of 70 years of gradual historical progress, and if they do then we can't trust any other countries to accept refugees because the relatively primitive people of the 1940s didn't. Society hasn't moved on as much as you think it has. Just look at the Republican party, and how our government has been getting progressively less effective over the past 20 years. Look at our attitudes towards immigrants, from people who were probably descended from immigrants themselves. And considering how many genocides of other demographics have occurred since then, historical progress is questionable. Why wait for a genocide to start before doing something, and finding out that you're still just as unwanted as before? So then, you admit that Israel is a product of money and connections - effectively, a "might makes right" approach - and not because there is any genuine legal or moral need for a dedicated Jewish State™ after all? Now who's using the shreddable straw man. Are you honestly expecting somebody who has a genuine need for a Jewish state not to use whatever legal resources at their disposal to obtain it, like buying property, building settlements on it, and convincing politicians to take up the issue? Or should they just stand on hill and sing "We Shall Overcome"? |
|
|
| (1181423) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 19:29:01 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 16:57:10 2014. That's the sort of motivation that's likely to drive political leaders and other "elites" but less likely to be a factor for people more concerned with daily survival.I wouldn't be so sure about that. Winning and losing battles and being dishonored from the loss is something everyone can understand, especially in a culture where honor and pride are important and where children are taught about it at an early age. |
|
|
| (1181441) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Mitch45 on Wed May 7 21:10:03 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by TerrApin Station on Wed May 7 17:38:57 2014. Of course it matters.What Nilet refuses to understand (not fails - refuses) is that the Palestinian leadership is not interested in peace with Israel and in fact is determined to destroy it. Period, end of story. It has been said many ways and it is completely true. If the Palestinians would put down their guns, there would be no war. If the Israelis would put down their guns, there would be no Israel. Everything Israel has done is designed to keep the Palestinians at bay to ensure the survival of Israelis. When Palestinians recognize the right of Jews to reside in peace, then peace will be possible. As long as they maintain the "my way or highway" attitude, nothing will get done. Its awful that it has to be this way, but that is the situation. People like Nilet are deluded. They think, "oh, Israel is at fault for the problems in the Middle East because they mistreat the poor Palestinians. If they would just give the Palestinians the opportunity to flourish, they would do so." Of course, Nilet conveniently ignores what happened in Gaza. Nilet continues to believe that Gaza's poverty is Israel's fault and that Hamas is just a peaceful, kumbaya-singing bunch of flower children who just want to be friends. Every step Israel takes backward, ceding land or principles to the Palestinians, has been met with violence. When Ehud Barak offered Arafat almost everything he wanted, Arafat walked out and started a new uprising. Where was the recognition that Israel was a peace partner? Where was - and is - the Palestinian concessions? |
|
|
| (1181457) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Olog-hai on Thu May 8 00:16:40 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Wed May 7 21:10:03 2014. When Palestinians recognize the right of Jews to reside in peace, then peace will be possibleBy calling themselves "Palestinians", they are automatically saying that they don't see Jews having that right, ever. |
|
|
| (1181486) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Mitch45 on Thu May 8 09:05:38 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Olog-hai on Thu May 8 00:16:40 2014. Not necessarily. |
|
|
| (1181487) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 09:09:12 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Wed May 7 18:50:28 2014. And if Israel stopped being the Jewish state it is now and turned against its population...Nice job trying to equate two completely unrelated concepts and hoping I won't notice. And just because other demographics haven't created their own countries (and others have, or at least tried, BTW) doesn't mean that doing so is wrong or that those other demographics don't want it. Ah, so many demographics want to create their own countries. Only the Jews have actually succeeded in having a country purpose-built for them. Remind me how Jews are so oppressed again? THEY voted to make it a Jewish state, and that is their business. The issue isn't that they voted to make it a Jewish state, the issue is that they're trying to artificially control its population lest a future vote decide to make it more secular. Wow, that's a lot of qualifications just so you can exclude the Native American tribes who are semi-autonomous and even have their own governments. Semi-autonomous but still under the jurisdiction of the United States— attempting to issue their own passports didn't work very well. And otherwise, you're still wrong about Israel being for Jews "exclusive use" (the Muslim Arabs and Christians living there most likely will disagree with you). You're nitpicking. "Exclusive use" is a deliberate exaggeration for dramatic effect. Muslims, Arabs, and Christians are allowed to live there, but their right to do so is curtailed so as to preserve a majority population of a decidedly unpopular religion. As for a dedicated state for a demographic, not odd at all. Go to a map, and look for Yugoslavia. Or Czechoslovakia. Or count how countries have the word "Sudan" in them. Apples to oranges. In all of those cases, two demographics living in one geographical area didn't like each other, so they drew a line down the middle of the area to create one country for one demographic and a second for the other. Israel is a geographical area set aside for an entire demographic's worldwide population— a house party to which all of Demographic A is invited, not merely a line down the middle of the house to prevent disputes between its two residents. Just look at the Republican party, and how our government has been getting progressively less effective over the past 20 years. I'm rolling my eyes, given that I just had to point out that the Republican party was a terrorist organisation and/or that they're supporting a Christian theocracy to people on your side of this very argument. (Possibly you yourself, I can't be bothered to check.) Look at our attitudes towards immigrants, from people who were probably descended from immigrants themselves. Refugees from genocide are still more likely to be accepted. If not, there are plenty of other countries to try— France, South Africa, Australia, Israel, Canada, take your pick. If you're really worried that other countries will shut their doors, you should agree with my opposition to exclusive birthright citizenship. Are you honestly expecting somebody who has a genuine need for a Jewish state not to use whatever legal resources at their disposal to obtain it, like buying property, building settlements on it, and convincing politicians to take up the issue? The "genuine need" for said Jewish state is the supposed oppression faced by Jews. If you can buy and build enough property to make your own country and convince politicians to take up the issue right through recognising the sovereignty of said country, then you're clearly not being oppressed. Maybe Israel should open its doors and welcome demographics facing enough oppression that they can't go build their own country. |
|
|
| (1181488) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 09:09:39 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Wed May 7 21:10:03 2014. They think, "oh, Israel is at fault for the problems in the Middle East because they mistreat the poor Palestinians. If they would just give the Palestinians the opportunity to flourish, they would do so."Nilet continues to believe that Gaza's poverty is Israel's fault and that Hamas is just a peaceful, kumbaya-singing bunch of flower children who just want to be friends. This post is dedicated in memorial to the innocent straw men you ripped to shreds because simply because you couldn't be bothered to address what I actually believe. |
|
|
| (1181490) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 09:10:27 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Gamera on Wed May 7 17:52:25 2014. Name one Arab state that respects Jews and would let them live in peace within their borders.Name one democratic Arab state. Theocracies don't count. You know, there were several centuries in which Jews were far better off in the Muslim world than the Christian world. That is theoretically possible BUT NOT PROBABLE... If you lived in America, you'd consider it a lot more probable. So have you been following the thread about the court decision that explicit government endorsement of Christianity doesn't violate the 1st Amendment? Given sufficient power and votes a constitutional amendment could be passed repealing the guarantees of freedom of religion that are in the constitution. You're fooling yourself if you think a constitutional amendment is required for that. The Christianists have never tried to amend the constitution, they've simply had courts "interpret" the existing constitution as not meaning what it explicitly says; government endorsement of Christianity doesn't count as establishing official religion, mass spying doesn't count as warrantless search, military tribunals with no chance at even mounting a defense count as jury trials, and so forth. Just because it is highly improbable here does not mean that it is improbable in other countries - particularly those where the people vote for theocratic parties / leaders... (Ayatollahs in Iran, Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt, etc...) Republicans in the US. We've got more democracy to dismantle and more protections of inalienable rights that have to be taken away slowly enough that people don't protest any one act, but the basic principle and end goal is the same. |
|
|
| (1181502) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Gamera on Thu May 8 09:41:57 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 09:10:27 2014. Name one democratic Arab state. Theocracies don't count.Ding! Ding! Ding!!! If Israel became an Arab majority state then the odds are that democracy would end and the Jews would be expelled or worse.... Throughout this discussion you have proven yourself to be either delusional or antisemitic - or both! |
|
|
| (1181505) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 09:55:00 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Gamera on Thu May 8 09:41:57 2014. If Israel became an Arab majority state then the odds are that democracy would end and the Jews would be expelled or worse....Cause and effect is not your strong suit, is it? By the way, since you think Arab people are inherently incapable of democracy, I'm going to have to add your name to the List Of Racists. |
|
|
| (1181514) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by 3-9 on Thu May 8 11:23:36 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 09:09:12 2014. Nice job trying to equate two completely unrelated concepts and hoping I won't notice.Nope, they're 2 very related concepts. And they're related in that Israel is the only country that has a completely open door policy towards Jews, a concept you find unimportant. Only the Jews have actually succeeded in having a country purpose-built for them. Again, why don't you try looking for Yugoslavia, Czeckslovakia, etc. As an extra assignment, why don't you try looking at the predominant populations in the countries that replaced them. Remind me how Jews are so oppressed again? Again, at the time they just suffered through a Holocaust partly because the nations of the world closed their doors to them. There were other Jewish populations around the world and anti-Semitism was alive and well. Would you still leave your fate in the hands of those very same countries? Or would you take action to make sure there will be one place that would never close their doors to your demographic? Your view is like from someone who has never known what it's like to have the world turn their back on you. You're nitpicking. "Exclusive use" is a deliberate exaggeration for dramatic effect. Hey, you're the one who stated it, not me. Any other deliberate exaggerations? Muslims, Arabs, and Christians are allowed to live there, but their right to do so is curtailed so as to preserve a majority population of a decidedly unpopular religion. How are the non-Jewish citizens of Israel curtailed? Forced birth control? Forced abortions? Limits on number of children? Apples to oranges. In all of those cases, two demographics living in one geographical area didn't like each other, so they drew a line down the middle of the area to create one country for one demographic and a second for the other. Gee, that sounds awfully familiar! It sounds just like - the creation of Israel! Of course, I think it's safe to assume the "line down the middle" is figurative. Israel is a geographical area set aside for an entire demographic's worldwide population— a house party to which all of Demographic A is invited, not merely a line down the middle of the house to prevent disputes between its two residents. It's more of a country than a geographical area, but yes. I'm rolling my eyes, given that I just had to point out that the Republican party was a terrorist organisation and/or that they're supporting a Christian theocracy to people on your side of this very argument. (Possibly you yourself, I can't be bothered to check.) And the fact that they (d)evolved into what they are now is a sign of historical progress? Refugees from genocide are still more likely to be accepted. If not, there are plenty of other countries to try— France, South Africa, Australia, Israel, Canada, take your pick. Except for one of them, none of them have a guarantee that you will be allowed into the country. Except for Israel (which didn't exist at the time) and maybe South Africa (which was still a colony), all of them have blocked your demographic at least once. But you'd still trust them to take you and your family if your demographic found it necessary to pack up and leave en masse? That's very trusting. *rolls eyes* If you're really worried that other countries will shut their doors, you should agree with my opposition to exclusive birthright citizenship. Or you can make sure that there is one place that will never shut their doors to you and your demographic. The "genuine need" for said Jewish state is the supposed oppression faced by Jews. If you can buy and build enough property to make your own country and convince politicians to take up the issue right through recognising the sovereignty of said country, then you're clearly not being oppressed. So they should wait until the next oppression and genocide before they discover they're all alone again? Or maybe depend on the United Nations to save them? *guffaw* Maybe Israel should open its doors and welcome demographics facing enough oppression that they can't go build their own country. Why should they? |
|
|
| (1181558) | |
Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Thu May 8 13:59:57 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Thu May 8 11:23:36 2014. Nope, they're 2 very related concepts.Only if you're advocating for the "Arab people are inherently incapable of democracy" position. I can't be bothered to look up exactly who expressed that position recently. Again, why don't you try looking for Yugoslavia, Czeckslovakia, etc. No, that's an apple. I asked for an orange. Again, at the time they blah blah blah blah At the time, it sucked to be anybody but a rich straight male WASP. It is no longer the 1940s. Neither the Holocaust nor the circumstances under which Israel was founded give them justification for turning away a refugee who shows up in Tel Aviv simply for being Romani/North Korean/Muslim Chinese/whatever today. Would you still leave your fate in the hands of those very same countries? Here in 2014, I trust Germany a lot more than either America or Israel. Or would you take action to make sure there will be one place that would never close their doors to your demographic? I'd rather make sure there's a place that won't close its doors to any demographic that's fleeing oppression. Once that's done, I'd work on creating another such place. After decades of countries closing their doors to you, your immediate response is "I want a country of my own so I can close my doors to everyone else?" Your view is like from someone who has never known what it's like to have the world turn their back on you. Yuh huh. At least one of the demographics I belong to faces at least as much discrimination as Jews do today. Hey, you're the one who stated it, not me. Any other deliberate exaggerations? Don't pretend you don't understand how language works. How are the non-Jewish citizens of Israel curtailed? Forced birth control? Forced abortions? Limits on number of children? Right of return— no goyim need apply. That and the need for a "two state solution" to enforce a Jewish majority, which will doubtless become a "three state solution" if Christianity starts offering a 20% bonus on all good deeds or whatever convinces people to change religions. Gee, that sounds awfully familiar! It sounds just like - the creation of Israel! And they've opened their doors to a worldwide population defined by their choice in food, holidays, and mandatory days off? You've missed the point. Of course, I think it's safe to assume the "line down the middle" is figurative. Ah, so you do understand figurative language. Then how come my use of the word "exclusive" confused you? It's more of a country than a geographical area, but yes. A country is a geographical area contained within specific borders. And the fact that they (d)evolved into what they are now is a sign of historical progress? No, but the fact that racism, sexism, homophobia, and bigotry of all sorts is at an all-time low in spite of their best efforts is. Except for one of them, none of them have a guarantee that you will be allowed into the country. That's a problem everybody in every country should be trying to change. I've had a fairly extended "debate" over this with Chris and I think Spider Pig— the idea of exclusive birthright citizenships (you may not leave the country you were born in without special dispensation) is absurd and obsolete. Except for Israel... No, Israel turns away every oppressed demographic save one. How many Chinese Muslims or Saudi Christians or Afghan atheists or North Koreans of any religious persuasion manage to find safety in Israel? ...(which didn't exist at the time) and maybe South Africa (which was still a colony)... I don't know when you are, but for me it's 2014. Israel exists, South Africa is an independent country, most countries are generally OK with Jews, and Germany bans pro-Nazi advocacy. ...all of them have blocked your demographic at least once. My demographic? Which one? How many of them are you even aware of? But you'd still trust them to take you and your family if your demographic found it necessary to pack up and leave en masse? There are plenty of countries to flee to if it came to that. Though it's funny you should ask what country I'd flee to— I doubt Israel would accept me and there are no countries established for the purpose of accepting people with my leanings on the topic of religion. Or you can make sure that there is one place that will never shut their doors to you and your demographic. You missed the point. That countries consider themselves reserved for the use of specific demographics (and will turn you away if you're not the right one) is the problem you're trying to solve— and abandoning the idea of residency discrimination by demographic is a lot better than making sure there's at least one country for every demographic. After all, if Israel is set up as the Jewish State™ and all other countries turn away Jews, then where do the Reform Jews go if Israel decided it's now Orthodox-only? What happens if Israel becomes a dictatorship for reasons completely unrelated to religion, or decides to discriminate based on criteria other than religion? So they should wait until the next oppression and genocide before they discover they're all alone again? No. If they've got enough power, money, and connections to create a country, they should create a country that will accept anyone fleeing from genocide. Why should they? Your view is like from someone who has never known what it's like to have the world turn their back on you. |
|
|
|
Page 9 of 22 |
||