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[OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Aug 24 23:47:35 2010 Wow, three cars. Weekend service ? Line: BMT Culver Line...Location: Ditmas Avenue... Car: BMT Std.... Collection of: George Conrad Collection...Notes: Prior to IND connection...from nycsubway.org Bill Newkirk |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Aug 25 06:34:10 2010, in response to [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Aug 24 23:47:35 2010. Nice :) |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by GIS Man on Wed Aug 25 08:22:28 2010, in response to [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Aug 24 23:47:35 2010. Great photo. I see that the extension was already under construction by the time this photo was taken.Bob |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by jabrams on Wed Aug 25 08:47:12 2010, in response to [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Aug 24 23:47:35 2010. Does anyone have a picture of what Ditmas Ave. looked like before the IND connection. Did the Culver line originally go on the outside of a two island platforms with a connection to/from the center express track, or was it just a single island platform (on the west side) with the second island platform added during the IND connection? |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by GIS Man on Wed Aug 25 09:41:18 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by jabrams on Wed Aug 25 08:47:12 2010. Ditmas Av. was a typical "local" station - three tracks with two outer platforms, just as it is now. Between 1954 and 1975 (approximate dates) the southbound platform was an island platform with an extra track for the shuttle behind the current and previous wall.Bob |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by zac on Wed Aug 25 10:22:45 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by GIS Man on Wed Aug 25 08:22:28 2010. All part of a plan to relieve the bottleneck at Dekalb. 5 lines squeezing onto 3 tracks in each direction without crossover/unders to do the switching. I've always wondered how bad it was getting through there. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by GIS Man on Wed Aug 25 10:33:55 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by zac on Wed Aug 25 10:22:45 2010. I don't know much about the track layout at De Kalb before its reconstruction, but I remember that when the Culver-IND connection was opened (first the (F), then the (D), then again the (F)), there was still some Culver service for a few years from Ditmas to Chambers St. weekdays and 36th St. nights and weekends. I've heard that before the reconstruction, it was possible for a Brighton train to use the bypass.Bob |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Ed Alfonsin on Wed Aug 25 11:28:27 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by GIS Man on Wed Aug 25 10:33:55 2010. Prior to the opening of the IND connection at Ditmas, Culver local service operated to Chambers 24/7 outside of rush hours--a three-car train of steels was the usual, with six-car expresses during rush hours via the Loop, skipping DeKalb and Myrtle to the Bridge and skipping DeKalb on the return. Five-car ex-SIRT trains (sometimes referred to as "E" types) replaced BMT standards in the mid-1950s --one of the experts could probably provide exact dates.After the IND connection opened, night and weekend BMT Culver service was cut back to shuttles between Ditmas and 36th Street with locals and expresses still operating on weekdays. Apparently, ridership was still too high for TA tastes, so in 1959, the BMT Culver was reduced to a shuttle between Ditmas and Ninth Avenues, which had the effect of killing the line--same sort of thing the TA tried with the Franklin. Brighton Specials used the DeKalb bypass in the morning rush hour--using BMT numbers, the bypass had 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 trains. The current Bridge track in DeKalb had Fourth Avenue and West End locals and the current Tunnel track had Brighton locals and expresses. Fourth Avenue Specials in the evening (from Broad Street) skipped Myrtle and DeKalb after coming over the Bridge. The only real effect of the DeKalb reconstruction was to move waiting to get into DeKalb from the southbound side to the Manhattan-bound side. Ed Alfonain Potsdam, NY |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 11:46:02 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by jabrams on Wed Aug 25 08:47:12 2010. Ditmas Ave. was indistinguishable from other Culver local stations, until the connection was made. A track for the shuttle was added behind the CI bound platform and the wall that existed there was removed, turning a side platform into an island platform. Said wall was not replaced until the late 90's. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Wed Aug 25 11:46:27 2010, in response to [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Aug 24 23:47:35 2010. And on this date way back 42 years ago...BMT Std. #2537, Ditmas Avenue-Culver Line Shuttle, 8/25/1968.[1] BMT Std. #2537, Ditmas Avenue-Culver Line Shuttle, 8/25/1968.[2] BMT Std. #2537, Ditmas Avenue-Culver Line Shuttle, 8/25/1968.[3] -William A. Padron ["B'klyn-Church Av."] |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 11:51:33 2010, in response to [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Aug 24 23:47:35 2010. What it looked like from the other direction:
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Aug 25 12:43:21 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by GIS Man on Wed Aug 25 10:33:55 2010. According to retires Trainmaster M. R. Deckinger, although N/B Brighton trains could bypass Dekalb, the S/B bypass track was disconnected sometime in the late 1930s so that S/B Brighton trains had to stop there. Culver Expresses and Bankers' Specials operating via the tunnel could also use the bypass via switches in both directions N/O the station. Although presently under the IND/BMT signal system, a home signal indicating a 3rd route displays 3 yellows, the home signal on the S/B tunnel track N/O Dekalb displayed a bottom blue for tunnel trains routes into the bypass AFAIK the only such signal display anywhere on the NYCTS. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Aug 25 12:47:14 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 11:46:02 2010. The structure from the Culver shuttle track S/O Ditmas station was also built to provide for the shuttle track to be connected to the S/B mainline lcl track but I never saw such a connection and AFAIK it was never installed. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 12:54:45 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Randyo on Wed Aug 25 12:47:14 2010. I think it always dead ended without connecting. They were really keen on keeping IND and BMT separate back then, I suppose. Or it provided a convenient excuse to not run service from the BMT on the line once the connection opened. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by jabrams on Wed Aug 25 13:02:12 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 12:54:45 2010. When was the shuttle single tracked? If it was after the 1954 IND connection, did the second track connect to the shuttles first track so that only 1 train would platform on the west side of the station (original local platform, now island platform)? |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Dan on Wed Aug 25 13:06:05 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 11:51:33 2010. Nice photo. That one-track switched connection to the IND ramp is interesting. I guess it was used during construction of the connection. I wonder if any BMT revenue runs ever used it for whatever reason. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by jabrams on Wed Aug 25 13:09:13 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 11:51:33 2010. Was there a single track connection before the IND take-over. Also notice a "non home" signal at the switch handing down the ramp to the IND. What happened to the 3rd track on the Culver line? |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 13:09:36 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by jabrams on Wed Aug 25 13:02:12 2010. The shuttle always used one track to terminate on. The BMT trains were physically isolated from the IND trains. Anything that ran on the Culver shuttle had to enter the line from 9th Ave. Before the line was reduced to a single track, there was a switch a few hundred feet west on the Culver structure allowing trains to access the northbound track. I am not sure when the Manhattan bound track, and this switch, was physically removed. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 13:11:56 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 11:51:33 2010. I think the connection to the BMT was physically made long before 1954 and this "temporary" connection was it. Clearly the middle track was sacrificed sometime after 1940. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Aug 25 13:17:43 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 13:09:36 2010. What is interesting about the Culver single tracking is that in the early 1960s when the modified Lo-Vs were operating there the shuttle single tracked on the NORTHBOUND track. I would imagine that the reason for that was so that the S/B track could be completely replaced in preparation for its eventual use as the only track in service. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Ed Alfonsin on Wed Aug 25 13:44:22 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 11:51:33 2010. In the mid-1950s, I was told by people working in the BMT Trainmaster's office at 370 Jay Street that the track down the ramp from Ditmas was occasionally activated for equipment movements, such as moving the 150 or so R-1s over to Fourth Avenue for the local service from 95th Street.Ed Alfonsin Potsdam, NY |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 14:17:30 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Randyo on Wed Aug 25 13:17:43 2010. Was it ever reversed signaled, or did it operate as a single block? I recall some people remembering that the old annunciator would go off AFTER a train left the station, 9th Ave bound. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 14:21:50 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Ed Alfonsin on Wed Aug 25 13:44:22 2010. Makes sense, this would have been the only IND/BMT connection.I always wondered how the IRT moved cars to/from the Queens lines before municipal takeover. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Aug 25 14:31:16 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 14:17:30 2010. By the time I was a M/M on it in 1969, it was an absolute block. There was a home signal at the N/E of Ft Hamilton Pky station to hold N/B trains out of 9 Av, however, that was controlled by 8 Av tower. Even though it was an absolute block, if a shuttle train had to be swapped for any reason the signal had to be put at danger to allow a shuttle train to be brought out of 36 ST Yd into 9 Ave. I used it a few times when I was a Tw/M. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Aug 25 14:46:12 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 14:21:50 2010. Before unification, Flushing line cars ran over the Qnsbro Br and up to the Bronx and 148 St shop via the 2 Av El which if the cars ran on the middle track at restricted speed could handle them. After the 2 Av el to the Bronx was demolished, trains went south to CHL and back up the 3 Av El middle track to access the mainline IRT. Once all access to the mainline IRT was cut off, some IRT car equipment personnel were transferred to CIY and selected IRT cars were equipped with dual tripcocks for BMT operation to transfer IRT cars to CIY via 60 St. At that time 2 BMT M/M's tricks were created at Corona Yd and made available to M/M who were qualified on the Queens lines for the specific purpose of operating what became known as the Coney Island Transfers (CITs) to CIYd for heavy mainenance. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 15:13:21 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Randyo on Wed Aug 25 14:46:12 2010. Cool, thanks. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Aug 25 15:34:38 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Ed Alfonsin on Wed Aug 25 11:28:27 2010. Which was a BIG mistake in retrospect it was, though back then you of course had a different mentality:That's one segment I would be looking at rebuilding over time as a full-time, two-track route (perhaps not via the exact same route of the old Culver Line, but reasonably close), since this also could have the potential to be an SAS route when that opens (either via Broadway or via Nassau Street and in either case via the old route from 9th Avenue). Ditmas Avenue would be rebuilt where the platform that used to house the shuttle would become a full platform for 10 cars and connect to the local track to Coney Island there, while to 9th Avenue and Manhattan, that part of the station would be double decked with a connection to a new track on the upper level that would be accessed from a new connection just past 18th street to avoid a grade crossing: Depending on where such could be built to the right of the current local track that would quickly go up and over the current local track and onto a new upper level and/or from the express track to the new track (from the local track, going first onto the express track and then going to the local track), a connection to such track. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Gene B. on Wed Aug 25 15:40:49 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Ed Alfonsin on Wed Aug 25 11:28:27 2010. Wow, thanks for the historical information. I thought I had remembered the Brighton Express being on the present day tunnel track, with locals against the wall. You have confirmed that my recollection was correct. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Ed Alfonsin on Wed Aug 25 17:49:53 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Randyo on Wed Aug 25 14:46:12 2010. I remember seeing new subway cars being towed down McDonald Avenue across Avenue P on the trolley tracks most likely to be readied to be put into service. They were in the original color scheme used for R-10s, R-12s, and R-14s, so were most likely R-12s or R-14s for Flushing. (We moved from that neighborhood in 1951.) It's funny that I remember the colors but not the number of doors or what SBK locomotive was hauling them--had to be running off trolley poles.I was given a route number sign during a visit to CI shops around 1955--still have it--it has only "7 Flushing," "Special," and "No Passengers" but I still treasure it. Ed Alfonsin Potsdam, NY |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Aug 26 10:53:13 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Randyo on Wed Aug 25 14:31:16 2010. as a young child[11 or 12 years old]I remember the CI bound track did have a connectingn switch.years later I rode it&the switch was removed&bumper blocked.we`re talking apx.1956/7 when the switch was in place. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 26 12:22:18 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 25 13:09:36 2010. It is my understanding that the N/B track was removed from service after heavy storm damage in 1959 or 1960. It was also at that time the TA killed off through service from the Mainline BMT to Ditmas.No doubt this is what they WANTED to do- isolate and eventually destroy the line. But that's my understanding of the timeline and events. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 26 12:27:10 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Dan on Wed Aug 25 13:06:05 2010. I believe it was used. while I haven't had a chance to get on here much lately, a few weeks ago, we had a brief thread about Arnines running on the Astoria Line in the early 1950s, and I asked how they got there.Someone was nice (thanks- I don't remember the poster's handle) enough to tell me that by that time there was already a such a connection, from the N/B Culver, at Ditmas, exactly where it shows in these photos. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Aug 26 12:29:43 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by William A. Padron on Wed Aug 25 11:46:27 2010. Impressive. Much better than my one and only ride on the Culver Shuttle, sometime in the fall of 1974. Boring-ass R27/30s in the awful silver/blue livery, probably tagged up w/ grafitti. Still, I'm glad I rode the line (Ditmas to 9 Av), since it went away the following May :( |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 26 12:30:59 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Ed Alfonsin on Wed Aug 25 17:49:53 2010. That IS a treasure! I guess those trainsets you saw on McDonald Ave went to CI, then up the Culver BMT all the way to Queensboro Plaza for transfer to the IRT... |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Gene B. on Thu Aug 26 15:42:17 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Aug 26 10:53:13 2010. I rode the Brighton line a lot in 1955. There were expresses, usually four cars of standards, that ran between Franklin Ave. and Coney Island and did indeed use the southbound wall track at Prospect Park station. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Aug 26 19:41:09 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by William A. Padron on Wed Aug 25 11:46:27 2010. Thanks Bill, I always remember the shuttle running two "A" type Standards instead of the 3 car "B" type.I noticed in that last pic the (SS) shuttle sign at Ditmas Ave. What a contrast in generations ! Bill Newkirk |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by GIS Man on Wed Sep 1 08:30:10 2010, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Randyo on Wed Aug 25 13:17:43 2010. By the time I first rode it (1962/3), it single-tracked from the middle track on the lower level of 9th Av. and stopped on the southbound track at Ft. Hamilton and 13th Av. The track between 9th Av. and Ft. Hamilton was one continuous track with no connections to any other tracks. There was still a switch to the northbound track between 13th Av. and Ditmas, but the northbound track itself dead-ended between Ft. Hamilton and the tunnel entrance. IIRC, it was running BMT standards.Bob |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by samcevoy on Sat Nov 21 02:58:55 2015, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Randyo on Wed Aug 25 12:43:21 2010. M. R. DeckingerI met Dick Deckinger in about 1974 when I was with the LIRR on loan to the NYCTA, and Dick was a Special Duty Trainmaster with NYCTA. He hired on the NYCTA in the 1930s and had prior railroad service with the Erie and NYC. Dick was probably the most qualified operations expert on the NYCTA. Dick earned a Cooper Union engineering degree in mid-life and when he retired from the NYCTA at age 65 or so, he became a signal engineer working on the Northeast Corridor Project. He later worked in Asia. Dick was my friend for about 30+ years until he died in 2007. If anyone wants a copy of Dick's eulogy, send me an e-mail at samcevoy@aol.com. Steve McEvoy |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Sat Nov 21 10:40:57 2015, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Aug 25 15:34:38 2010. The best we can do at the moment is a B35 SBS. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Nov 21 16:02:01 2015, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Gene B. on Wed Aug 25 15:40:49 2010. Although, it was possible for Brighton expresses to bypass dekalb, according to the late trainmaster M. R. Deckinger, the switch from the S/B bypass track to the Brighton Line was removed sometime in the late 1930s and a photo I have of the Dekalb Av model board from the 1950s indicates that the track had been disconnected by that time. I don’t understand why the bypass track to the Brighton was removed since it could have been retained even after the rebuilding of the area. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Nov 21 16:07:02 2015, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Aug 26 19:41:09 2010. Interesting that you should mention 2 A types since when I broke in on the Culver as a C/R in 1966 that was the consist. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Nov 21 16:09:39 2015, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by jabrams on Wed Aug 25 13:09:13 2010. The middle track of the Culver was severed at that point in preparation for its eventual connection to the IND ramp. The same thing was done in 1956 just prior to the Fulton St el connection to the iND ramp into Grant. |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Sat Nov 21 16:10:42 2015, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 26 12:27:10 2010. The first R-1s that were 'tested'(for a year!) on the Sea Bits,were most likely directly delivered to CIY, as 207th St was still UC, correct? |
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Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Nov 21 16:12:48 2015, in response to Re: [OLDE PHOTO] Culver Line Before IND Invasion, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 26 12:30:59 2010. Even if they went yo CIY, they probably used either the Sea Beach or West End to get to Qnsbro Plz. Also I have seen photos of the IRT SMEEs being track tested on the Sea beach middle tracks so that would be where the cars would have been headed for. |
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