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LIC Yuppies get steamed |
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Posted by Doctor B on Sat Jul 4 09:07:32 2009 This matter was mentioned previously on subchat but I can't locate the thread.As soon as construction began for the yuppie condo on Borden Avenue in Long Island City, I knew this was going to happen. The railroad has been there since 1861. The yard was full of smoky steam locomotives. In the 1950's diesels were introduced and they have been there every weekday for over 50 years. Local residents (yes, real people did live in the area before the yuppie crowd "discovered" it) went about their business and never complained about the trains. Now the yuppie crowd moves in and wants the 148-year old rail yard to move. These new arrivals did their apartment shopping on weekends when the rail yard was empty. The honest real estate agents failed to mention there was an active passenger train facility across the street. Next thing we'll hear is that the newbies want the Midtown Tunnel to be relocated, as traffic produces fumes. They'd also like the East River filled in so they can easily bike to Manhattan, but that's another story. NY Daily News July 3 2009 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 4 09:12:55 2009, in response to LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Doctor B on Sat Jul 4 09:07:32 2009. Bummer. :) |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jul 4 09:17:42 2009, in response to LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Doctor B on Sat Jul 4 09:07:32 2009. "Dammmit, Cecil, those idling trains are interfering with my meditation session! Why, I can't even sip my overpriced triple-latte-decaf whatever you brought me this morning. The nerve of those people, having a railroad next to my house! Don't they know it's inconsiderate and boorish of them to run trains, disturbing my beauty sleep?"(*rolls eyes*) |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sat Jul 4 09:20:39 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jul 4 09:17:42 2009. And don't talk to them that the trains were there first! |
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Posted by Fred G on Sat Jul 4 09:21:26 2009, in response to LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Doctor B on Sat Jul 4 09:07:32 2009. Awww...crying in my latte.Your pal, Fred |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jul 4 09:26:03 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by daDouce Man on Sat Jul 4 09:20:39 2009. I *DID* on my weekly radio segment on Q-Nation FM (an LGBT podcast), and promptly got told, "WE are here NOW, so the railroad needs to adapt".I nearly split my gut laughing at that one! |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sat Jul 4 09:32:44 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jul 4 09:26:03 2009. Figure out a solution to that situation and you can also solve the mideast. |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sat Jul 4 09:35:37 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Fred G on Sat Jul 4 09:21:26 2009. Tears might make it taste better. |
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Posted by Bill From Maspeth on Sat Jul 4 09:39:53 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jul 4 09:26:03 2009. Yeah, the attitude is "Since the neighborhood is changing, so should the railroad." The Community Board is behind these people too. I don't know what these yuppies were thinking about when they saw the railroad tracks in the distance outside their windows!I couldn't stop laughing. |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jul 4 09:41:03 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by daDouce Man on Sat Jul 4 09:32:44 2009. The LIC yuppies need to be put in the time-out room. Ditto for the Mideast leaders. Perhaps with each other. |
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Posted by NJCL2308 on Sat Jul 4 09:41:09 2009, in response to LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Doctor B on Sat Jul 4 09:07:32 2009. Please tell me these people are high. |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sat Jul 4 10:04:00 2009, in response to LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Doctor B on Sat Jul 4 09:07:32 2009. The engines ain't goin' nowhere, the yard ain't goin' nowhere, they should just grin and bear it. I don't see anyone complaining about Morris Park, where engines idle 24/7/365, with residences to the north, west and south of the yard, no one complains there. Croton-Harmon has condo and townhouse residences on the western and northwestern perimeter of the yard, the people cried, but realized there was nothing that could be done so they shut up after a while. These people will eventually shut their pie holes too, there is nothing that can be done, and again the trains are not there on the weekends, the key rest and relaxation time, so what's the big deal??And someone stated that a train as idling there at 4 AM, I was not aware that the LIRR stored trains there during those hours, especially with the high risk of vandalism. |
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Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sat Jul 4 10:08:23 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by NJCL2308 on Sat Jul 4 09:41:09 2009. Probably from the diesel fumes. |
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Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sat Jul 4 10:09:25 2009, in response to LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Doctor B on Sat Jul 4 09:07:32 2009. They just want the area paved over so a new Starbucks can open. |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sat Jul 4 10:11:08 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sat Jul 4 10:09:25 2009. Don't forget a D'Agostino and an Internet Cafe :-D |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sat Jul 4 10:11:45 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Bill From Maspeth on Sat Jul 4 09:39:53 2009. But the yuppies will win, unfortunately. They have money, the LIC service is little used, the MTA is broke. Too easy just to give in to them. The service to LIC won't last much longer, I'm afraid.Of course, these yuppies are probably all concerned about "being grenn" and all that s***, yet they want to destroy a railroad, instead of encouraging their fellow ass****s to use it when they go out to the Hamptons. |
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Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sat Jul 4 10:13:02 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sat Jul 4 10:11:08 2009. :-) |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sat Jul 4 10:14:02 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sat Jul 4 10:04:00 2009. They probably don't care about Morris Park or Croton-Harmon.This is LIC! |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sat Jul 4 10:14:03 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by MainR3664 on Sat Jul 4 10:11:45 2009. I don't see that happening!! If the LIC service was doing so bad, I think the LIRR and MTA would have closed up shop there a long time ago when the stations on the Montauk Line (Penny Bridge, Haberman, Fresh Pond, Glendale, Richmond Hill) closed up due to practically non-existent ridership. I don't see no yuppie winning this one. |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Sat Jul 4 10:17:55 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by MainR3664 on Sat Jul 4 10:11:45 2009. Just remind those yuppies about The City of Brooklyn in the 1840's.They wanted the LIRR to move their trains out of their neighborhood. Then wanted service restored when the local economy suffered. |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sat Jul 4 10:23:02 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by daDouce Man on Sat Jul 4 10:14:02 2009. Croton-Harmon's residences on the west and northwest outer perimeters of the yard are not necessarily cheap, low income areas. |
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Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sat Jul 4 10:24:51 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sat Jul 4 10:23:02 2009. And more engines idle in the area for longer bits of time and more trains move and make noise there in a few hours than LIC does in an entire week, so I would think there would be much word and opposition there than LIC. They don't get weekend respites in Harmon as they do in LIC when the trains are not there for 2 straight days, 3 if it is a holiday weekend. |
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Posted by Dan on Sat Jul 4 10:50:35 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by MainR3664 on Sat Jul 4 10:11:45 2009. I don't think they will win this one. The builder probably got the land cheap because of it's proximity to the railyard. But beyond that you have to wonder why the land was zoned (or re-zoned) residential. A commercial zoning for big-box stores or large supermarkets would have made more sense.I normally would sympathize with the residents and I feel bad for the "yuppies" but the railyard was plainly there for all to see. The MTA really can't do much to reasonably accommodate the residents until that very distant day when LIC is either electrified or closed. |
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Posted by MJF on Sat Jul 4 11:16:03 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sat Jul 4 10:09:25 2009. There's already a coffee house upstairs at Vernon-Jackson. What more do these people want? :-) |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Jul 4 11:16:33 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Dan on Sat Jul 4 10:50:35 2009. There is one aspect of this issue that a bit of a nugget.The idling engines are not there on weekends! Since those engines are someplace elsewhere, an argument could be made that they should remain at that place all of the time. A crack in the window towards mitigation appears, a point to argue. A deal could be made. Which is a different argument than, those idling engines are there ALL of the time, and especially because there's no where else to put them. In such a case, the new yuppies lose, flat out. If this were the case, then no mitigation or deal is possible, unless major amounts of money or effort is used. As a transit fan, I am inclined to say screw the yuppies - I like my trains so don't mess with them! On the other hand, there are plenty of NIMBY issues that get decided in a wierd way. Zoning - there is/was a whole urban homesteading movement to "reclaim" blighted spaces, and this is one aspect. From a fiscal point of view, is it better to get money (from property and other taxes) from such an area (near a train yard) by allowing housing to be built, or to allow the land to dis-used because the industrial base has declined? Getting big-box stores and other facilities can be a challenge - a chicken and egg situation - without nearby residents. Just a thought. Mike |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sat Jul 4 11:17:08 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Bill From Maspeth on Sat Jul 4 09:39:53 2009. Does anyone here have a photo of this area with these apartments ? it would be interesting to see just how close these yuppies are to the nice railroad....8-) Karl M |
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Posted by metropod on Sat Jul 4 11:33:51 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sat Jul 4 11:17:08 2009. they're across the street! :) |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jul 4 11:42:18 2009, in response to LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Doctor B on Sat Jul 4 09:07:32 2009. Look out the window before you spend hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars....then you might notice all of those tracks for the choo-choos...The issue with the ventilation fan is a bit different, as it's being done because you have the diesel trains operating during construction, and it's a temporary thing that was somewhat less expected than that trains would operate out of the train yard next door. Still, in real estate, you get what you pay for. People liked the panache and relative affordability at these developments; that comes from where they're built. Which brings me to that other real estate mantra: LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION! These people want to pay for the LIRR to relocate operations or cover the yard, more power to them. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jul 4 11:48:42 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Sat Jul 4 11:17:08 2009. Try Google street view on Borden Av in LIC to get a look at the buildings. Then zoom out to the aerial view to see the stone's throw distance to the tracks. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jul 4 11:53:07 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Michael549 on Sat Jul 4 11:16:33 2009. These people paid less for their residential property because of where it's located, i.e., next to a train yard. They now want LIRR to increase the cost of their residential property by improving its location. If they want that, let them pay due consideration.I hear these sob stories more and more nowadays when it becomes clear that these people were bamboozled by PR and paid more than reasonable value for their property, from these 'pioneers' who, e.g., moved next to Gowanus Canal then complain about the smell, move next to a train yard in LIC and then complain about trains, move to an industrial area and complain that there aren't supermarkets, etc. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 4 11:55:18 2009, in response to LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Doctor B on Sat Jul 4 09:07:32 2009. The outrage expressed in this thread is all well and good, but don't expect the LIRR to fight this if they don't have to, and with the increasingly leftward leaning politicians YOU PEOPLE elect (along with the judges they appoint), it's only a matter of time before they get it shut down. |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Jul 4 12:29:11 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jul 4 11:42:18 2009. These people want to pay for the LIRR to relocate operations or cover the yard, more power to them.Better yet, let them electrify all the LIRR Diesel branches. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 4 12:37:57 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jul 4 11:42:18 2009. Why take responsibility for your own actions when your own government is prepared to bail you out? Irresponsible credit card spending? Declare bankruptcy. Deposited your money in an irresponsible bank without paying attention to their lending practices? Buy a house way outside your means? FDIC and TARP to the rescue. Trust your money to a shady financial advisor? Give him 150 years in prison, but don't blame me. Work at Wal Mart and you don't get medical unsurance? Give him government provided coverage, but don't question his inability to improve himself so he doesn't have to rely on a shit job to pay the bills. It's always someone else's fault. Welcome to the New America. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 4 12:42:00 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jul 4 11:53:07 2009. It is a very *NICE* area. The land that their buildings are on used to be part of the rail yard. That *is* why the land was there in the first place.Now the gantries no longer host barges with boxcars on them, and so those tracks went to seed.It is a very nice neighborhood, I'd be pleased to live there. I am sure that their buildings are all air conditioned, and probably don't even have windows that open. The railroad is a nice neighbor, relatively quiet, much better than say a school or a factory. I'd say that they got a good deal and should keep a cork in their whine. They are close to transportation, there is little in that neighborhood to attract crime, there is nice access to the river. What do they want from us. I am not going to change their diapers for them too. ROAR |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Jul 4 12:44:34 2009, in response to LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Doctor B on Sat Jul 4 09:07:32 2009. The plans for the area changed from Olympic village, then to low income housing, then to medium income housing and so on.An entrance to an extremely busy tunnel, a diesel rail yard and a polluted creek were not noticeable when they checked out the place? Of course, none of the above are noticeable at http://www.hunterspointcondos.com. (intentionally not hot linked) |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jul 4 12:49:22 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 4 12:37:57 2009. It's always someone else's fault. Welcome to the New America.I sympathize greatly with your critique about the ongoing decline of responsibility. I don't want to get too far into it on this side of the board, except in one respect. Work at Wal Mart and you don't get medical unsurance? Remember that Walmart has flipped on this issue - once adamantly opposed to providing insurance, now in favor of it (WSJ and NYT both had stories on this in the last few days) and providing it, and more than that, they support the proposed mandates because they feel that they will be able to do better under that regime than their competitors. But as to the dispute in LIC, this kind of debate has been going on for centuries. It's well documented in the law, and it's nothing particularly special about 2009. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 4 12:50:26 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 4 12:37:57 2009. WalMart offers some very nice health insurance benefits to its employees.And to their credit, they also offer lots of part-time work to people who otherwise could not work full time. And WalMart gets dinged by the Democrats for having the most employees on Medicaid, when they specifically offer work to people who otherwise would be unable to work. They have no problem hiring someone with downs syndrome for example. Employment with WalMart will not get them off of the dole, they will never be that kind of worker, but the can have dignity, a job and some extra income. Then people look at WalMart's books, at their total number of employees and then wiggle their finger at them, when actually they are a great employer, with good benefits. ROAR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 4 12:55:00 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jul 4 12:49:22 2009. They did not "flip" on this issue. They have always had good coverage, especially for full-time employees. But they also have a high percentage of part time employees, that is to say, employees who do not want to work full-time, because WalMart has plenty of full-time positions available.WalMart is also very willing to hire handicapped people, a factor that skews the perception that none of their employees have adequate coverage. ALL THAT HAS CHANGED is that the LEFT-RUNNING DOG PRESS covers it differently now, as if Messiah Obama caused them to change something. BARF |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 4 12:55:43 2009, in response to LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Doctor B on Sat Jul 4 09:07:32 2009. LION *LIKES* Steamed Yuppies....Tastes like Chicken. ROAR |
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Posted by Dan on Sat Jul 4 12:57:05 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Michael549 on Sat Jul 4 11:16:33 2009. Big Box stores could have worked in LIC because they all have large parking lots. The is a huge customer base in eastern Queens and northern Brooklyn. But, that's a dead issue here.I'd never buy a home or condo near any industrial facility, railyards included. I even passed on buying a house on South Railroad Avenue because I didn't want the noise of the SIR. I'm a railfan, but not that much of a railfan! |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 4 13:03:01 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jul 4 12:50:26 2009. I know. I was tailoring my rant for a particular mindset, one which thinks Wal Mart is the worst thing to hit the labor market since the English workhouse. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 4 13:04:55 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jul 4 12:49:22 2009. But the government is elected by the people, and the people's mindset determines the law. These people will find someone to get the LIRR to move, and the LIRR won't fight back if it doesn't have to. Trust me, the LIC yard is on borrowed time, unless there's a drastic shift in public sentiment. |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Jul 4 13:08:02 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 4 13:03:01 2009. Yet Target gets a pass.What Walmart really needs or needed to do is buy or lease existing space that would need only a few modifications. Such a space may include the space that had been a Circuit City prior. The major problem? Walmart needs spaces about 100K square feet big. It probably dropped the ball when it didn't lease space at Gateway Center Mall; it could have gone where BJ's is. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jul 4 13:13:35 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 4 11:55:18 2009. but don't expect the LIRR to fight this if they don't have to, and with the increasingly leftward leaning politicians YOU PEOPLE elect (along with the judges they appoint), it's only a matter of time before they get it shut down.LIRR has been on the wrong side of fights before (Port Jefferson Branch electrification is obviously one). But this tussle in LIC isn't one of those. As for the comment about judges on the left, let's keep in mind the very wise paper that Guido Calabresi - one of the great legal geniuses of our age, former Dean of Law at Yale, founder of the Law and Economics movement, and since 1994 probably the judge furthest left on the US Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit (which covers NY, CT, and VT) - wrote with his then-student Douglas Melamed the famous article, 'Property rules, liability rules, and inalienability: one view of the cathedral' in 1972. The genius of the article was to point out that we decide on the entitlements in the law. And so consider a simple, abstract case: you have an allegation of nuisance by P against D. Abstractly, there are four different ways that entitlements could be structured. First, we have the two kinds of what were termed property rules: either D gets to continue on with the activity, or P gets an injunction against that activity. This was traditionally where the law was at. Then, we have the two liability rules: D can continue as is but pays damages, or P gets the injunction but has to indemnify D for loss. Now when you fill up this doubly bifurcating path with actual facts, you understand fully the options available. Any case from LIC would be a lot like a case decided about the same time as the aforementioned classic article, called Spur Industries v Del Webb Development. In that case, you had the developer as plaintiff, called P above, (Del Webb), suing to enjoin a cattle feedlot in AZ from its business, because P was building a retirement community next door, and obviously cattle feedlots aren't convenient neighbors. The court ruled that P could easily foresee the conflict, 'P came to the nuisance', but not D (same thing goes in LIC - the Ps there bought condos built there over a hundred years after the D (LIRR) first set up shop), so P could have its injunction if P indemnified D for its loss, which you will note is a liability rule. Obviously much more can be said concerning the underlying theory, but this isn't a torts class, so I will stop here, having shown what I set out to show. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 4 13:16:14 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Jul 4 13:08:02 2009. Indeed, Wal Mart isn't even particularly noteworthy in how they treat their employees. Most large chain stores and fast food resturaunts do the same thing. Unskilled workers can't expect lavish benefits or good pay. Want to improve your lot in life? Acquire a skill! |
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Posted by van Nostrand on Sat Jul 4 13:17:25 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jul 4 09:26:03 2009. "We're here, engineer, get used to it"? |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jul 4 13:23:48 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 4 13:04:55 2009. I am less pessimistic than you are about this matter, but yes, LIRR is the big, bad railroad, and these are just yuppies minding their business, I know.All politicians are whores, so the outcome that you foresee is certainly possible. But that's why it's incumbent on those of us who see things otherwise to speak truth to whored out power. |
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Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed |
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Posted by d_mind on Sat Jul 4 13:24:14 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Jul 4 09:41:03 2009. Let's hope for the destruction of both. |
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Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 4 13:26:42 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jul 4 13:23:48 2009. I try, but i get branded as a right wing whacko when I do. |
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Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed |
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Posted by van Nostrand on Sat Jul 4 13:27:26 2009, in response to Re: LIC Yuppies get steamed, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 4 11:55:18 2009. Yep, because if it's anything *liberals* are known for, it's damaging the public good to benefit a few wealthy private parties. :P |
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