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| Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR (1471832) | |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 9 15:57:26 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Apr 9 15:10:40 2018. IAWTP |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Apr 9 15:58:08 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 7 12:55:31 2018. There are bypass tracks east of the station, and I've ridden them. You probably are restricted to 15 mph but you avoid a lot of switching and traffic. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 15:59:41 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by SLRT on Mon Apr 9 15:58:08 2018. Hence my caveat "bypass … at high speeds". Think they could be upgraded to permit express service? |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Apr 9 16:02:09 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Apr 7 13:45:18 2018. You need to recognize a number of points. Capacity is the biggest. Adding trains during peak hours is virtually impossible. If Amtrak (which controls the East River Tunnels) wants to add a rush hour train east of Penn, the LIRR has to cancel one. It's easy to say "Add More Service" but you often can't. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 9 16:06:05 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by sloth on Mon Apr 9 13:14:07 2018. The problem is that it’s not the Railroad’s place to engage in social engineering. If it has to eliminate good jobs to cut costs, then it should. The MTA’s charter (as it applies to the commuter railroads) is:. . .the continuance, further development and improvement of commuter transportation and other services related thereto within the metropolitan commuter transportation district, including but not limited to such transportation by railroad, omnibus, marine and air, in accordance with the provisions of this title [and] to develop and implement a unified mass transportation policy for such district. Pub. Auth. Law § 1264(1). Given that, if the improvement of commuter transportation and other services involves the elimination of “good jobs,” then so be it. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 16:12:12 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 15:40:55 2018. The rail accident rate in Japan is one-sixteenth what it is here in the US, and OPTO/POP is ubiquitous on rail there. Facts are stubborn things. Where are the stories of a trainload of people becoming seriously injured or killed because there weren't 8 railroad employees onboard? Stop dodging. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 16:15:38 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 15:44:56 2018. I gave you 549,489,285 reasons why we should not have 2 to 6 conductors on every train: it's a waste of passenger's hard-earned money in 2018 when we have the technology to do the job just as well, if not better.Why don't we have 1,000 conductors on every train? Personal service! A conductor for each passenger to hold their hand and tend to their every need. All for the one-way fare of $175 from Jamaica to NY-Penn Station. Is that what you think we need? |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 16:26:26 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by sloth on Mon Apr 9 13:14:07 2018. I'm specifically thinking of all the drill moves that are performed in locations with manually operated switches. You don't want engineers shoving blind, or changing ends multiple times in a move, or running back 12 cars to get a switch. Not efficient in the least, nor is stationing a drill crew in a place like Far Rockaway where that move only happens four times a day. Remember the MTA spends $549 million on railroad conductors every year...if they are not bearing that significant expense every year, replacing the limited number of hand-operated switches with remote-controlled switches would not put the MTA out of business. Further, PoP would drastically lower the marginal cost of running more service, so instead of putting a train in the yard where it will sit doing nothing for hours, the train can keep running during the off-peak period so they don't even have to bother using the small yards that require these types of drill moves. I think it would be reasonable to station a single conductor at each terminal and a handful at NYK/ATL/JAM to help with turning trains, brake tests, these types of drill moves, etc. Doing this on the LIRR would cost just $8.676 million a year, much less than the $316 million spent having two conductors on every train. The current methods of door operation also require an assistant conductor. So change the current methods of door operation...make it so the cars are programmed to know which doors to open at which stop, or, even better, install sensors do doors only open when it detects its stopped at a platform. Remember, the human conductors aren't perfect...they do open doors off platforms all the time. Technology may eventually change all this, but there is also a social cost of replacing good jobs with McJobs or no jobs that the bean counters do not include in their bean count. A computer can be programmed to count beans as well. Perhaps I should counsel young assistant conductors to find a good expressway off ramp and write a snappy slogan on a cardboard sign instead. As another poster has already said, the MTA's job is to provide useful and affordable transportation for the people of this region, not provide a source of income for a few hundred conductors at the expense of the region's economy. Others have been going to great lengths to justify wasting a half-billion dollars a year on employing people to punch holes in tickets but have completely ignored the detrimental economic impacts of poor and expensive commuter rail service. Cutting costs allows the MTA to drastically improve service, especially for those in undeserved parts of the city (the whole original point of this study/thread). If the LIRR had frequent and affordable reverse-peak service, for example, it could become a brand new destination for job growth, especially with development near transit projects currently underway. Also remember that by eliminating conductors and expanding service, there will be lots more new positions to fill. If PoP allows the railroads to increase service by 25%, that's 25% more enginpeople needed to run the trains. PoP would also require a number of fare inspectors to do enforcement, positions that can be filled by conductors. As the financial savings from PoP is put towards capital expansion projects, there is more work for trade labor. As part of the savings is put towards fleet expansions, there will be a need for more car repairpeople. Conductors can be given first priority for filling these new positions, so no significant workforce reductions would necessarily be required, and service becomes so much better and more affordable as a result. Some very short term pain during the transition for lots of long-term gain. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 9 16:42:09 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 13:17:31 2018. Many things can be done by the engineer, but will vastly increase the train's delay. What if a train overshoots because of wet leaves and needs to back up? What if someone needs to look under a train for an obstacle? I've observed both.The engineer can do it, but the track will be blocked for way longer and the passengers will cool their heels for way long if there is no conductor. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 9 16:42:09 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 13:17:31 2018. Many things can be done by the engineer, but will vastly increase the train's delay. What if a train overshoots because of wet leaves and needs to back up? What if someone needs to look under a train for an obstacle? I've observed both.The engineer can do it, but the track will be blocked for way longer and the passengers will cool their heels for way long if there is no conductor. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Apr 9 16:49:52 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 13:17:31 2018. There would be public outcry relating to no one available to assist in an emergency of any type. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 17:02:34 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by AlM on Mon Apr 9 16:42:09 2018. The passengers will be ok with it if they know their fare was reduced by 40% as a result. For the few times a year slip-slide is a problem or there's an obstacle, we'll survive. There are plenty of other controllable delays that could be reduced to more than offset this. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Apr 9 17:21:52 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 17:02:34 2018. The chances of a fare reduction are virtually 0. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 9 17:41:29 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 07:34:22 2018. How do you control over-riding your zone ?On SEPTA, you will have to tap out to avoid the maximum fare. That won't work here. On AMT in Montreal, they don't have local tickets. All tickets sold have Zone 1 (Montreal) as one end-point. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 9 17:51:08 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 17:02:34 2018. How do we know the legislature and the governor won't simply slash the operating subsidy by saved amount ? |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 9 17:52:57 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 15:51:53 2018. VRE has POP system. Their fares are higher than MARC's. Same DC-area economy and cost of living.What are each outfits respective fare box recovery ratios ? |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Apr 9 17:57:30 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 15:28:17 2018. IC fares on the Electric were subject to the Illinois CC, not the Feds. And from my recollection fares did rise. (I was a regular rider until leaving Chicago in late 65) As to "regulation" service frequency shrunk in the 60s nearly with each TT issue. The major problem was the shift to the Dan Ryan Expressway--the day it opened the IC and RI together lost 5k riders. And then in terms of the So Chicago Branch--the MLK assassination riots/arson devastated the neighborhood which has not recovered to this day. Non-existent residents don't travel. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Apr 9 17:58:54 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by pragmatist on Mon Apr 9 16:49:52 2018. Especially ADA advocates. Say you have a wheelchair bound passenger that needs a plank to have the wheelchair on board say 6 carlengths from the head end. Now if the engineer is the "crew" he has to leave his cab/engine and assist the passenger, get him/her on, secure the chair then go back to the cab/engine to proceed. Then reverse the procedure when the wheelchair passenger has to get off.This will not work, straight answer. Its unsafe, impractical, and would kill on time performance resulting in a ridership nosedive. You need at least one trainperson on board. The public, politicians, the ADA folks and the unions would not tolerate the missing safety factor that a conductor on board would provide. A conductors job in addition to protecting revenue is to provide transportation in a SAFE and timely manner. Safety first is the fundamental RR mission statement in nutshell. You could give free rides all & every time & if a safety factor isin't maintained, its not worth it. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Apr 9 18:08:00 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 9 17:52:57 2018. What are each outfits respective fare box recovery ratios ?In 2016, according to the NTD VRE: 0.54 MARC: 0.36 MN: 0.60 LIRR: 0.55 NJT: 0.57 VRE has POP system. Their fares are higher than MARC's. Same source: fare revenue per passenger trip: VRE: $8.66 MARC: $5.61 MN: $8.05 LIRR: $6.97 NJT: $6.41 |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 9 18:11:22 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 16:26:26 2018. The idea that automation eliminates aggregate jobs is called the luddite fallacy. The history of the industrial revolution is the history of increased automation, and yet a continually increasing population has been accommodated with more and more jobs through increased productivity: By making production more efficient, more production can be accommodated and thus there are more of the remaining jobs.The disadvantage is that the remaining jobs may be more unpleasant than those that replace them. They may also be unavailable to those whose jobs were replaced due to inadequate skill level. Regardless, I stand by my previous assessment that it is not the place of the MTA to accommodate people displaced by economic change and that the MTA's mission is best accommodated by embracing economic change instead of functioning as a make-work program. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 9 18:17:36 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 07:43:42 2018. For that trick to work you would have to know exactly where and when the inspector would come, so that's a non-issue as most rail passengers are unable to predict the future. If you buy a cheap Hicksville to Farmingdale ticket, you would only get off if the inspector comes between Hicksville and Farmingdale. If the inspector comes at Mineola, you would be subject to the full penalty fare.Except that LIRR tickets don't specify origin and destination; though specific stations are printed on the ticket, the ticket itself is valid for any journey within the zones specified. A two-zone intermediate ticket is always $3.25, so a ticket that says "Mineola to Farmingdale" is also valid from Farmingdale to Deer Park, and from Deer Park to Ronkonkoma, and from Ronkonkoma to Yaphank, and from Yaphank to Greenport. If I bought that ticket, I could ride from Mineola to Greenport and no fare inspector could confirm that I was taking a $17.25 journey on a $3.25 ticket. If I were boarding at Penn Station, I could get caught with an invalid ticket between Penn and Mineola, but even then I could simply buy a peak ticket to Mineola and a separate two-zone intermediate and make the journey to Greenport for $15.25 instead of the $29.25 I'm supposed to pay. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 9 18:41:40 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 9 18:17:36 2018. Changing LIRR tickets to specify origin and destination is the least of the problems for this proposal. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 18:47:30 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by pragmatist on Mon Apr 9 16:49:52 2018. Are there never any emergencies on European or Asian trains? None of this are unique to the LIRR or Metro-North. Besides, the engineer is still on the train, and could still be reached through the intercom and can stop the train and tend to any critical emergencies if need be.Further, unless the conductor moonlights as a physician or a bouncer, what are they going to do in an emergency anyways? They're not going to perform heart surgery or breakup a fight...all they normally do (and all they can really be expected to do) is call the police or EMS, which the engineperson can do just as effectively. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 18:56:46 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 9 17:41:29 2018. You would control over-riding the same way you would control people riding without any ticket at all. If you buy a ticket from New York to Hicksville but instead ride to Ronkonkoma, but are caught at Brentwood, you're subject to the full penalty fare. Since you never know when the inspector will come, you can't reliably over-ride without risking the full penalty fare.You could require all riders to tap/scan on and off, though that wouldn't be necessary as long as they stay on top of enforcement. It is worth noting that conductors don't diligently track each passenger is going to their ticketed destinations now anyways, especially on eastbound trains...on the LIRR conductors usually make one pass after departure and one pass after Jamaica then sit in the cab for the rest of the trip. For the most part you can buy a ticket from NY-Penn Station to the first stop after Jamaica and over-ride all the time, and you'd seldom get caught. I used to commute from Massapequa...one day I continued east to Babylon and was shocked how many people were riding to Amityville, Copaigue, and Lindenhurst with Massapequa Park monthlies... |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 18:57:27 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 9 18:11:22 2018. The idea that automation eliminates aggregate jobs is called the luddite fallacy. The history of the industrial revolution is the history of increased automation, and yet a continually increasing population has been accommodated with more and more jobs through increased productivity: By making production more efficient, more production can be accommodated and thus there are more of the remaining jobs. Agree 100%. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 19:01:19 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Apr 9 17:58:54 2018. Especially ADA advocates. Say you have a wheelchair bound passenger that needs a plank to have the wheelchair on board say 6 carlengths from the head end. Now if the engineer is the "crew" he has to leave his cab/engine and assist the passenger, get him/her on, secure the chair then go back to the cab/engine to proceed. Then reverse the procedure when the wheelchair passenger has to get off. First and foremost--the ADA requires everyone to be treated equally regardless of ability. It further stipulates clear requirements for level boarding, which are almost universally ignored by railroads. Under the ADA, passengers in wheelchairs must be able to board as any other passenger... Able-bodied riders can board trains through any door unassisted, so under the law riders in wheelchairs must be able to board unassisted as well. Two wrongs don't make a right. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 9 19:06:37 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Apr 9 18:08:00 2018. So VRE's higher fare goes straight to their bottom line. Subsidy is reduced.Say that MARC went to such a system. Is it fair to say that Maryland and West Virginia will simply cut their subsidy and not cut fares ? You'll never see the benefit in you taxes. They had a near death experience this year with service beyond Brunswick. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 19:11:21 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 9 18:17:36 2018. Except that LIRR tickets don't specify origin and destination; though specific stations are printed on the ticket, the ticket itself is valid for any journey within the zones specified. You're creating straw-man arguments...replace "Hicksville" with zone 7, "Farmingdale" with zone 7, and "Mineola" with zone 4 in my original statement and the point still stands. A ticket purchased from Mineola (zone 4) to Farmingdale (zone 7), is not valid from Farmingdale (zone 7) to Deer Park (zone 9). That's a misstatement and a clear contradiction of the tariff regulations which state a ticket is valid between the stations or zones indicated on the ticket. Today, if you want to use a zone 4-zone 7 ticket for a zone 7-zone 9 trip, the conductor can sell you a $0 extension-of-ride ticket onboard and you can ride for your intended trip. The fare collection manual does state the conductor must sell you the ticket for the intended trip, even if it is a $0 transaction, so everything is properly accounted for. Under PoP the passenger would be required to purchase the $0 extension of ride fare from the ticket machine and active the correct ticket before boarding. If they were caught at Deer Park with a zone 4-zone 7 ticket, they would be subject to the full penalty fare. If you buy a NYK to Mineola ticket and a Mineola to Farmigndale ticket and get caught at Deer Park you would be subject to the full penalty fare. This is neither unreasonable (it would take all of 30 seconds) nor an undue hardship... |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 20:05:15 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Apr 9 17:58:54 2018. You need at least one trainperson on boardNot good enough to handle all ADA cases. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 20:06:33 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 19:01:19 2018. the ADA requires everyone to be treated equally regardless of ability. It further stipulates clear requirements for level boardingThen the ADA is unconstitutional. Not possible for "level boarding" with all types of passenger rail in the USA. The LIRR and Metra will never, ever be the same any more than Metrolink will be the same as those. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Apr 9 20:09:22 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 18:47:30 2018. They assist in evacuations. That is an important presence even if rarely used. The fact that Asians or Europeans accept something doesn't mean it will be accepted here. Nor does it mean it should or shouldn't be. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Apr 9 20:52:19 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 20:06:33 2018. It may be impractical, but hardly unconstitutional. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 9 21:07:28 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 16:26:26 2018. "Remember, the human conductors aren't perfect...they do open doors off platforms all the time."As I pointed out too a few weeks ago, sometimes they don't open the doors when they should. On the other hand, I don't expect the MTA to spend that $300-$500 million or so per year in any efficient, reasonable way when it cost $2 billion to extend the 7 one stop or $4 billion for the 3 1/2 new stops on the Second Avenue subway. The way they spend money, that will pay for maybe one rail to 125 St or just bulldozing the overgrowth on the abandoned LIRR Rockaway line, assuming they could even get those modest goals accomplished on time. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Apr 9 21:11:35 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 9 18:11:22 2018. 'luddite fallacy' may be the agit prop term coined by the elites, but in the current reality, nations all overhave been applying neoliberal/austerity policies shedding public sector jobs on the fantasy that the unemployed would become entrepreneurs. However, the actual resulthas been mass underemployment as no one among the urban poor of the third world earns enough to get ahead. Instead, more people work for lower wages leading to a lower standard of living. Sound like asnything you have seen in the US? |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 9 21:19:40 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 19:01:19 2018. I haven't taken this particular train in a while, but for a while I had occasion to take the 6:57 AM from Freeport, which usually had a wheelchair passenger boarding in Rockville Centre. This required the plate to be brought out and a small delay while that passenger boarded. Because it was express to Penn after that, they could make up the time and it wasn't a big deal, but it's worth mentioning.I think one reason that law is ignored is that the railroad would rather be sued for an ADA violation than sued on account of a disabled passenger injury caused by what the person's lawyers would argue was negligence, regardless of the ADA requirements. If a plate will prevent an injury, plate it is. The plate also covers up gap problems, both vertical and horizontal. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 21:41:57 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 20:06:33 2018. Then the ADA is unconstitutional. Not possible for "level boarding" with all types of passenger rail in the USA. The LIRR and Metra will never, ever be the same any more than Metrolink will be the same as those. Now you're just getting ridiculous. The ADA is obviously constitutional, and is ultimately rooted in the fourteenth amendment. The ADA clearly states discrimination against people on the basis of ability is illegal, and therefore railroads must provide equal access to passengers regardless of ability, which means level boarding. The level boarding requirements in the ADA merely punctuate with explicitness what in any event is implicit. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 21:45:34 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 9 21:19:40 2018. I think one reason that law is ignored is that the railroad would rather be sued for an ADA violation than sued on account of a disabled passenger injury caused by what the person's lawyers would argue was negligence, regardless of the ADA requirements. If a plate will prevent an injury, plate it is. The plate also covers up gap problems, both vertical and horizontal. So long as equal access is provided and riders using wheelchairs can reasonably board unassisted, their exposure is no different than it is when an able-bodied person falls, twists their ankle, or otherwise gets injured and sues for negligence. Should each train therefore be staffed with 48 conductors to stand with plates at each door and hold the hand of each rider as they board? That makes no sense. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Apr 9 22:16:01 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 20:06:33 2018. It is level boarding moving forward. Existing low level boarding (like a Superliner) can stay, but boarding assistance must be provided (ramp,plate, or lift) If you buy new equipment or build a new system or segment getting new equipment it will be level boarding. The constitutional question The ADA is more than 25 years old, and while some recent rulings have narrowed some interpretations slightly, the 14th Amendment question seems pretty well settled, at least in the minds of those whose opinion on that particular subject actually matter. That sort of eliminates all of us. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 22:28:23 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by pragmatist on Mon Apr 9 22:16:01 2018. It is level boarding moving forwardNope; can't happen. Metra is staying with the gallery cars, which have steps and wheelchair elevators. The ADA is more than 25 years old Plessy v. Ferguson lasted 58 years before Brown v. Board of Education rendered it de facto unconstitutional. And the ADA does not build upon Brown at all. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Apr 9 22:32:36 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by pragmatist on Mon Apr 9 22:16:01 2018. Existing low level boarding (like a Superliner) can stay, but boarding assistance must be provided (ramp,plate, or lift) If you buy new equipment or build a new system or segment getting new equipment it will be level boarding. That doesn't say anything about changing an existing system. If you think the ADA is going away because of a Supreme Court change in thinking you are part of a very small group of folks. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by ntrainride on Mon Apr 9 22:49:59 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 16:15:38 2018. stop the hyperbole. i've never seen seven conductors on any lirr train. three, max. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by ntrainride on Mon Apr 9 22:53:01 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 17:02:34 2018. hah hah hah. 40 % fare reduction...due to changes in train personnel? hah hah hah.no. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by ntrainride on Mon Apr 9 23:04:39 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 16:12:12 2018. oh okay, now it's 8 conductors? you're either a lawyer or you think you're a lawyer.guy who "drives" a train should only have to think about that. not door issues, not ticket/fare collection, not unruly passengers, not emergency medical situations. just driving the train. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Apr 9 23:17:46 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 21:45:34 2018. "Should each train therefore be staffed with 48 conductors to stand with plates at each door and hold the hand of each rider as they board?"Now you're being rediculous. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by ntrainride on Mon Apr 9 23:24:02 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 9 18:11:22 2018. lot of stupid people out there ride trains. so what? even stupid people deserve the right to expect a problem-free riding experience. the presence of conductors on passenger trains is the best way to make passengers feel safe.trains with no conductors are the perfect way to make sure that mayhem occurs on the train. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 23:24:21 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by ntrainride on Mon Apr 9 22:49:59 2018. Figured he'd have to make things up to try to "prove" his opinion. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 23:25:06 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by ntrainride on Mon Apr 9 22:53:01 2018. No commuter railroad that adopted POP ever dropped fares. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 23:26:10 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by ntrainride on Mon Apr 9 23:04:39 2018. He said "drives"? Must be a troll from England. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 9 23:27:38 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Apr 9 23:17:46 2018. Is he the second coming of JournalSquare-K-Car with the meds wearing off? Guess it's time for another dose of æther, lol. |
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Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR |
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Posted by lirr42 on Mon Apr 9 23:28:35 2018, in response to Re: $787K Study Seeks to Find Ways to Encourage Subway Riders to Ride LIRR and MNRR, posted by ntrainride on Mon Apr 9 22:49:59 2018. Not hyperbole...train 176 has 5 collectors, in addition to the conductor and assistant conductor...1 conductor + 1 assistant conductor + 5 collectors = 7 trainpeople 7 trainpeople + 1 engineperson = 8 employees to run the one train... Trains 44, 416, 1612, 1618, 1620, 1622, 2008, 2014, 2852, 123, 131, 2061, 2063, 2351, 6108, 8063 also have 5 collectors. Train 1707 has 6 collectors for a total of 9 employees onboard. Train 123 has 6 collectors on holiday eves. Train 6102 has 8 collectors for a total of 11 employees onboard. The Cannonball has 10 collectors. ...and that doesn't count deadheading employees who are still on the clock and getting paid but not working. |
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