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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Apr 8 04:38:12 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by chud1 on Fri Apr 8 04:35:00 2011. You're not made to look like a fool; he was being sarcastic is all. Relax.your pal, Fred |
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Posted by chud1 on Fri Apr 8 04:49:13 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Fred G on Fri Apr 8 04:38:12 2011. i still feel like a fool by answering.chud1 |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Apr 8 05:49:30 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by chud1 on Fri Apr 8 04:49:13 2011. Well that's up to you but don't sweat it.your pal, Fred |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 8 06:55:47 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Apr 8 00:39:53 2011. No. Please try to follow the subthread. It's not that hard. Start here: Those parking garages near Yankee Stadium are charging $35 to park, no wonder they are only 60% full. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 8 06:55:57 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Apr 8 00:40:23 2011. No. Please try to follow the subthread. It's not that hard. Start here: Those parking garages near Yankee Stadium are charging $35 to park, no wonder they are only 60% full. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 8 06:56:32 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by TonyG on Fri Apr 8 00:27:39 2011. But others would. So...? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 8 06:59:56 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Apr 7 23:44:11 2011. I park in Harlem near the foot of the Triborough Bridge somewhere, which is right at the 125th St/Lexington Ave subway station. A couple stops up to Yankee Stadiun on the 4 train. After the game, a couple stops down to 125th St, and I can jump right onto the Triborough Bridge and head to the Grand Central Parkway. I am out of the after game chaos in minutes. It's worked great. No traffic. All the traffic is headed to the Bronx before the game, and after the game there's no traffic either as I get on the subway. All the luxury of using your own car.....with the benefits of public transportation at the stadium site to avoid all the cars leaving or coming. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 8 07:01:36 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Apr 7 23:52:52 2011. I park at 125th St to avoid the traffic and congestion around the stadium. Of course the free parking doesn't hurt either, but that's not the reason I avoid driving near the stadium on game night. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 8 07:04:12 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by chud1 on Fri Apr 8 04:35:00 2011. I was F'in with Chris and being sarcastic. He knows that. Geez, don't be so serious. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 8 07:06:50 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by chud1 on Fri Apr 8 04:49:13 2011. It was a joke, don't worry about it.I was messing with Chris because I know he's a Giants fan, and I am a Jets fan. Giants fans used to love saying "what's the name of that stadium" to Jets fans. It's just harmless fan messing as now Jets fans aren't a tenant anymore as they used to be. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Apr 8 07:09:59 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 8 07:01:36 2011. I park at 125th St to avoid the traffic and congestion around the stadium. Of course the free parking doesn't hurt either, but that's not the reason I avoid driving near the stadium on game night.Yeah. The traffic around the Bronx even when the Yankees aren't home is bad enough. You're smart for avoiding the mess on game night. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Apr 8 07:16:14 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 8 06:55:57 2011. Yes, those people you see who park in Ozone Park, walk 1/3 mile with luggage to the Air Train station to avoid both the imaginary line and the $18 parking charged by the Port Authority Crime Family. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 8 07:28:07 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Apr 8 07:16:14 2011. No. Please try to follow the subthread. It's not that hard. Start here: Those parking garages near Yankee Stadium are charging $35 to park, no wonder they are only 60% full. |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Apr 8 11:07:29 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:23:47 2011. Well obviously, there will always be room for transit to a football game, and not everyone will tailgate, but it's pretty safe to say that at least 60-70% will come by car because of the tailgating, and no transit in the world will stop that.30-40 percent of a stadium's capacity is still 5,000 or so cars taken off the roads and about a million square feet less parking that would be required. |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Apr 8 11:33:15 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:23:47 2011. It would have resulted in a parking garage, and the BBQing and much of the tailgating etc, would not have been able to be done in an indoor multi tier parking garage for safety reasons.That's the same issue for downtown LA. The existing on-site parking for Staples and the convention center are parking garages that are mostly below ground with a couple of levels above ground. There are some large private lots next door that can hold a couple thousand cars, but those are scheduled to be developed at some point. What people will be expected to do are to park in the on-site garages or park either on the street or in one of the many numerous small lots near the stadium or take transit or walk or ride a bike. The good thing is that parking is fairly abundant on Sundays. Most people will probably be able to find parking within a half mile of the stadium but they will be spread all over the place. And I don't know if there will be much of a tailgate atmosphere. |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Fri Apr 8 11:49:22 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 20:27:41 2011. That was completely intentional. They wanted to essentially duplicate what they had, only with more modern amenities. With Citifield, the Wilpons wanted to go retro, like all the other ballparks since Camden Yards. Jacobs Field in Cleveland was the last stadium before the 'retropark' renaissance, and the new Yankee Stadium is an exception to the rule. |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Fri Apr 8 11:52:06 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 20:11:58 2011. There is MUCH less tailgating for a 1PM game. There's much more for a Sunday night (8pm) game. And not as much as a 1pm Sunday game for a Monday night game. |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Fri Apr 8 11:56:30 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by chud1 on Thu Apr 7 14:34:57 2011. Just giving it the proper tense. |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Fri Apr 8 12:07:50 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by TonyG on Fri Apr 8 00:27:39 2011. You can get into the game cheaper. |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Fri Apr 8 12:10:59 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Apr 8 00:39:53 2011. Employee Parking at JFK is not that expensive, and depending on the employer, possibly free. |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Apr 8 12:17:57 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:12:27 2011. That was 40-50 years ago, football subculture has evolved a lot since then. They didn't have the tailgating to the extent that it's done now...the vast majority will STILL use cars. That is not to say it wouldn't be used, but the majority will always come by car because of the tailgating involved with football.If downtown stadiums are built, and traffic and parking become a nuisance, more fans would use transit. False, the vast majority will STILL use cars. That is not to say it wouldn't be used, but the majority will always come by car because of the tailgating involved with football. Railgate! Or just have a cookout at home before you go to the game. |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Fri Apr 8 12:20:43 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Apr 8 11:07:29 2011. Depends on how many people are in each car. You have to assume 2 per car (which is probably average). Capacity of NMS is ~80,000, so 30% would be 24,000. So it's more like 10,000 cars worth of people. Like I said before, an actual passenger count would is necessary before conclusions can be drawn. |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Apr 8 12:21:03 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:05:51 2011. Football has evolved a lot since the 1970's. It's almost 50 years since they played there.1973 is nowhere near fifty years ago, and football will doubtlessly evolve again over the next couple of decades. |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Fri Apr 8 12:24:24 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Easy on Fri Apr 8 11:33:15 2011. There will also be scheduling issues; you won't be able to schedule a football game and a basketball or hockey game with such limited parking and facilities in such close proximity. |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Apr 8 12:28:27 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Fri Apr 8 12:20:43 2011. Depends on how many people are in each car. You have to assume 2 per car (which is probably average). Capacity of NMS is ~80,000, so 30% would be 24,000. So it's more like 10,000 cars worth of people. Like I said before, an actual passenger count would is necessary before conclusions can be drawn.I was extra-conservative: 60,000 capacity (Gillette Stadium is 68K) and four per car. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Apr 8 12:34:41 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Charles G on Wed Apr 6 16:01:18 2011. That's an interesting point. Mass transit to football games on Monday or Thursday nights will probably draw more patronage. Sundays? Not so much.Ironically, NJT/Metro North would do better to run their combined service on these days, but probably can't due to fleet requirements for peak service in NJ. |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Fri Apr 8 12:45:26 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Apr 8 12:21:03 2011. It's nearly 40...but nowhere close to 50...unless you're talking about the Polo Grounds. The New York Titans last played there in 1963. |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Apr 8 13:21:16 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Fri Apr 8 12:24:24 2011. The seasons only overlap for a couple of months so we're only talking a few games. Plus they can still have basketball and hockey in the evening at 7:30 if the football game starts at 1:00. Even now they often schedule two events for the same day and sometimes three.Also competing for parking are the Nokia Theater, Staples Center concerts, the convention center, restaurants, bars and clubs, hotels (some have no parking), and other businesses. Still with football being on Sundays it's doable. |
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Posted by Charles G on Fri Apr 8 13:41:20 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 20:09:04 2011. You may disagree, but if half the cars are arriving at 10 or 10:30, then why is traffic worse at Noon.I think you are both mis-estimating when the lot is half-full. The inner "half" of a parking lot contains less than 1/3 of the parking spaces. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 8 13:46:12 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Charles G on Fri Apr 8 13:41:20 2011. Huh? How could half arrive at 10 or 10:30? We've said several times that half could arrive over the period between when the lots open and when the gates open, which is three hours. |
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Posted by Charles G on Fri Apr 8 13:47:04 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Apr 7 23:34:49 2011. My math computes just fine -- your assumptions don't.You assume a uniform distribution of arrivals during the three hours from 8 AM to 11 AM for a 1:00 game. Anyone knows that is not the case. If you think 16% of cars arrive between 8 and 9, you are saying that you believe 13-14000 people are in the parking lot before 9 AM. I have never arrived for a game at 8 AM. I lived in Little Falls for 5 years, however and often drove past the stadium on game days at all hours and never observed anything resembling the numbers you describe being at the stadium as early as you describe it. I'm curious as to how you are coming up with your estimate. You haven't given any other explanation other than that you have been there and seen it with your own eyes -- yet I don't see how that means you've counted cars in the lot. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 8 14:00:30 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Charles G on Fri Apr 8 13:47:04 2011. You expect me to count the cars in the lot? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 8 14:03:18 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Charles G on Fri Apr 8 13:47:04 2011. You also ignored the last paragraph of my post.Also, how can you see from your car while driving by on a regional roadway better than I can see while walking through the lots? |
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Posted by Charles G on Fri Apr 8 15:47:45 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 8 14:00:30 2011. You expect me to count the cars in the lot?If you wouldn't mind... I don't know how we'll settle this otherwise! |
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Posted by Charles G on Fri Apr 8 16:03:41 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 8 13:46:12 2011. Right, but when you say that half could arrive between 8 and 11 you then go on to assume that there will be a uniform distribution of arrivals during that time -- but that defies logic. Clearly more would arrive between 10 and 11 than would between 8 and 9.It's fair to say that arrivals between 11 and 1 are close to uniformly distributed. Between 8 and 11 let's assume something less uniform perhaps 1/6 of arrivals between 8 and 11 are between 8-9, 1/3 between 9-10 and 1/2 between 10-11. At the high end of your range -- 65% arriving more than 2 hours before game time -- then the arrival pattern would look like this: 8-9 --> 11% of cars 9-10 --> 22% of cars 10-11 --> 32% of cars 11-12 --> 17.5% of cars 12-1 --> 17.5% of cars Under such a scenario clearly peak traffic around the stadium would be between 10 and 11. Only at the lowest end of your range -- 40% arriving more than 2 hours before game time -- does the implied arrival pattern start to look anything like one might expect. 8-9 --> 7% of cars 9-10 --> 13% of cars 10-11 --> 20% of cars 11-12 --> 30% of cars 12-1 --> 30% of cars Yet even that pattern assumes that 20% of cars (and 20% of fans) are in the parking lot by 10 AM -- you've been there, do you think there are 15,000+ people in the parking lot at 10AM for a 1:00 start? I probably won't be back on before you've gone off for the Sabbath -- interesting discussion, but I don't think there is any way to reach a landing. I doubt there are any numbers published that we could use to refine estimate further. Once next season starts, you can count the cars for us -- right? CG |
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Posted by Charles G on Fri Apr 8 16:10:27 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 8 14:03:18 2011. I'm not saying I can see better -- just that I don't necessarily agree that you get a proper perspective on how full the lot is by walking around in it.As you walk around, do you take into account the geometric realities of the lot. If you divide the lot into two concentric areas -- the inner being those spaces which are 1/2 way or less from the stadium to the far edge of the lot, and the outer being those spaces which are 1/2 way or more, then only 1/3 of the spaces will be in the inner area while 2/3 are in the outer. So a lot might appear half full when it is really only 1/3 full. I ignored the last paragraph because you assumed a uniform distribution of arrivals over the period from 5 hours before game time to 2 hours before game time. I'm sure you realize that is not the case. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 8 17:31:10 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Easy on Fri Apr 8 13:21:16 2011. Plus they can still have basketball and hockey in the evening at 7:30 if the football game starts at 1:00.And a lot of the West Coast games are scheduled for 1:00, because that's the 4:00 East Coast slot. Technically, they can do some at 10:00 too, as that would be the 1:00 East Coast slot for football, but that would have to be for two west coast teams, as that would be awfully hard an an east coast team with the time zone change. In any event, there would be plenty of time for that to be all cleared out by the time a "7:30 hockey or basketball game would start", either way. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 8 17:33:12 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Apr 8 12:17:57 2011. Railgate!Not nearly the same.... Or just have a cookout at home before you go to the game. Oh please, you may as well stay home then and watch the game on your 50 inch TV at that point.... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 8 17:35:11 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Fri Apr 8 11:52:06 2011. I have been to both times, and there usually is just as much tailgating, it's just done for a shorter time, and doesn't start quite as early as 4:00 games. People just don't come as many hours before that's all, but they still come. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 8 17:38:26 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Charles G on Fri Apr 8 16:03:41 2011. Yet even that pattern assumes that 20% of cars (and 20% of fans) are in the parking lot by 10 AM -- you've been there, do you think there are 15,000+ people in the parking lot at 10AM for a 1:00 start?Absolutely, or very close to that. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 8 17:40:20 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 8 17:38:26 2011. 15,000 people are only about 4000 cars or so. You have to assume about 3 people a car, at the very least. Many have only 2 people, but many cars have about 4. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 8 17:42:20 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Apr 8 12:34:41 2011. Yes. I haven't really every had problems getting to the Meadowlands on Sundays. But I have done it on Thursday, Friday (preseason), and once for a Monday night game, and you have to add almost an hour to your drive time to get there on weekdays. This of course is from Long island and having to use the Cross Bronx, which is usually a horror on weekdays. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 8 18:37:31 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Charles G on Fri Apr 8 15:47:45 2011. I mind. And I'm not going to count the cars at a certain time, like say 11am for a 1pm start, as that would be physically impossible.We'll settle this once I find and review the data I have and/or I receive new data at a later data and then I'll be able to make a definitive statement. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 8 18:47:26 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Charles G on Fri Apr 8 16:03:41 2011. Right, but when you say that half could arrive between 8 and 11 you then go on to assume that there will be a uniform distribution of arrivals during that time -- but that defies logic. That was a simplistic characterization to illustrate how a certain scenario would work and you know it (and I made that clear when I said it). Anyhow, both of the scenarios you posted don't look too shabby. Yet even that pattern assumes that 20% of cars (and 20% of fans) are in the parking lot by 10 AM -- you've been there, do you think there are 15,000+ people in the parking lot at 10AM for a 1:00 start? 1. % of cars and % of fans are not equal - many fans do not arrive by car - i.e. the whole point of this thread.... 2. Doesn't even matter how many fans are there as far as this subthread is concerned, because we are talking about cars. 3. Yes, I think it is highly plausible that 20% of the cars are present by 10am for a 1 pm game. I doubt there are any numbers published that we could use to refine estimate further. Like I've said, I've done extensive observations of the lots. But you know, I'm always lying here and getting stuff wrong and claiming to know stuff that I can't possibly know so what good is what I have to say? Once next season starts, you can count the cars for us -- right? No, physically impossible, in the context of the issues being discussed here. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 8 18:56:00 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Charles G on Fri Apr 8 16:10:27 2011. just that I don't necessarily agree that you get a proper perspective on how full the lot is by walking around in it. I think I have a good perspective:  As you walk around, do you take into account the geometric realities of the lot. If you divide the lot into two concentric areas -- the inner being those spaces which are 1/2 way or less from the stadium to the far edge of the lot, and the outer being those spaces which are 1/2 way or more, then only 1/3 of the spaces will be in the inner area while 2/3 are in the outer. So a lot might appear half full when it is really only 1/3 full. I'm very familiar with how many spaces there are in the lots. Are you aware that there are thousands of spaces you can't even see when walking in the general vicinity of the stadium? Spaces that are further away? I ignored the last paragraph Well you shouldn't have, because the point I was trying to get at was that your theory of "the time when the most people must be entering the lots is when I see the most traffic on the roadways/highways around the stadium" is nowhere near necessarily true, as there are other factors in play. |
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Posted by hank eisenstein on Sun Apr 10 18:18:57 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 8 17:42:20 2011. I've determined that the Cross-Bronx is a horror all times except for 3:06AM on the third Tuesday every other January. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Apr 10 20:16:52 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by hank eisenstein on Sun Apr 10 18:18:57 2011. Nah, I take it once every few months and I haven't had any bad jams in a couple years. |
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Posted by hank eisenstein on Sun Apr 10 20:53:10 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Apr 8 18:37:31 2011. I don't think it's impossible. It's possible to get a good estimate, I think.Start with a photo of an empty lot, and count the spaces by using some kind of measure...say, there's ten spaces between lamposts. Then take another photo later on, same spot, same angle, and the needed intervals...and estimate the empty spaces, again using the lamposts as reference. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Apr 10 20:57:58 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by hank eisenstein on Sun Apr 10 20:53:10 2011. It's impossible. He wants an actual count of the cars in the lots at two hours prior to kickoff. It would be impossible for someone to count all of the cars in all of the stadium parking lots at two hours prior to kickoff. I've counted all the cars in specific lots AFTER kickoff. That's doable. But not what he's asking for. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Apr 10 21:14:16 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Apr 10 20:57:58 2011. People could count them as they arrived couldn't they? How many entrances are there? |
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