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Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 12:35:48 2011 In the debate over whether to put an NFL team near downtown LA or out in the suburbs a developer said baseball fans take transit, football fans don't. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 6 12:39:43 2011, in response to Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 12:35:48 2011. Tailgating for football is far more prevalent. They were talking about this on WFAN yesterday. Apparently the companies that own the parking lots near Yankee Stadium can't fill them, so they've raised prices. The culprit: the new Metro North station, which is carrying over 4,000 fans from north of NYC and western CT to the game that normally drove beforehand.The NJT service to the Meadowlands will never be as successful as this. Football is an all day event. Baseball is something you do after work. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Dekatyou on Wed Apr 6 12:41:04 2011, in response to Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 12:35:48 2011. Many NFL fans choose their own car because they want to hold a party at parking lot. Not so many MLB fans do so. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 12:45:55 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 6 12:39:43 2011. The NJT service to the Meadowlands will never be as successful as this. Proff? Because you have no idea what you are talking about. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 12:46:30 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Dekatyou on Wed Apr 6 12:41:04 2011. And? |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 6 12:48:29 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 12:45:55 2011. You will never get regular football fans to take mass transit at the same rate they use it to go to baseball games. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 12:50:08 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 6 12:48:29 2011. Irrelevant. Please stick to the point raised in this post: Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! (1052909) |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 6 12:50:44 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 12:46:30 2011. 
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 12:52:44 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 6 12:50:44 2011. Right, you have no idea what you are talking about. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Apr 6 13:10:39 2011, in response to Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 12:35:48 2011. Apparently 14 bi-levels' worth of fans take transit to Patriots games: |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 13:21:45 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Apr 6 13:10:39 2011. NICE. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 6 13:29:33 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 6 12:48:29 2011. Maybe they oughta try using open-top cars on sunny days so that you can barbecue all the way there . . . |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Apr 6 14:27:47 2011, in response to Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 12:35:48 2011. It seems that there is a return to mass transit in many areas like car crazy california which did away with many mass transit lines like Pacific Electric years ago. Now at greater expense than it would have been had these lines been maintained, they are being rebuilt if not in entirety at least in part as is the case with the L A Blue Line to Long Beach. That being said, think back to the days when the NY Giants played at first the Polo Grounds and later Yankee Stadium and the NY Titans which became the Jets who stared playing at the Polo grounds and moved to shea Stadium. All of the stadiums I mentioned were accessible to mass transit and plenty of football fans used the subway lines adjacent to them to go to the games. Although it failed, there was an effort made to locate a Jets football stadium in NY which would have been accessible to the NYCTA, LIRR and NJT. Other examples quoted in the article seem to indicate that unless individuals live so far from mass transit that it is highly inconvenient or impossible to utilize it, given the choice, football fans will elect to use mass transit rather than sit in the heavy traffic generated by a game and fume over being stuck in traffic on the way to or from a game. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Easy on Wed Apr 6 14:34:31 2011, in response to Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 12:35:48 2011. From your experience what would be your estimate of the percentage of football fans that arrive early and tailgate versus arriving later and going directly inside? |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 14:38:33 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Randyo on Wed Apr 6 14:27:47 2011. Don't forget about this part of the blog post:It’s true that people don’t take mass transit to games that are located in the suburbs, surrounded by gigantic parking lots with limited mass transit options. But stadiums located near to the urban core of major cities, think Soldier Field in Chicago, have a rich history of multiple transit options and fans riding the rail and buses to the stadium. Even suburban stadiums are embracing transit as a way to get people to come to their games, something that Majestic Realty surely realizes as they’ve already announced that their planning for increased Metrolink service to a station adjacent to the proposed stadium in Industry. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Apr 6 14:42:36 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 6 12:48:29 2011. I agree. For baseball, and even arena sports (hockey and basketball) in urban areas, mass transit is a viable option; I wouldn't doubt 1/3 or more fans arriving at those venues by mass transit, particularly in cities with extensive mass-transit systems. However, for football fans, a large part of the 'game' is the pre-game tailgate party, which isn't entirely possible with mass transit, unless you're meeting your group there. Football stadiums are usually located far from the urban core, severely limiting mass-transit options.I think the difference is in the 'rising' of the sports. Baseball and the arena sports came of age before the transition from urban to suburban living (pre-1950), while football developed with the car culture of the mid 50's, coming of age in the late 60's. I'd like to see the passenger counts for an early-season day game at the Meadowlands vs a mid-summer Saturday or Sunday day game at Citifield or Yankee Stadium. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Easy on Wed Apr 6 14:50:05 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Apr 6 14:42:36 2011. But it's possible that tailgating has become part of the game because the stadiums are far away. In LA there are lots of bars and restaurants around the area where they want to build the stadium so it could lead to a different type of pregame ritual. Plus since people are taking transit, they don't have to arrive so early and worry about parking like they do in suburban stadiums.Most of the people that live in LA seem to want the closer stadium with less parking and the people that live in the eastern suburbs and Orange County prefer the suburban location in the City of Industry. In any event I think that there will be enough parking in downtown for the people that really want to tailgate. They do have parking spaces around, although they are disappearing with new development. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Apr 6 15:30:29 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 14:38:33 2011. Good point. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Apr 6 16:01:09 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 14:38:33 2011. I would suggest that the Meadowlands, despite its location, is 'near the urban core', as opposed to being a suburban stadium. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Charles G on Wed Apr 6 16:01:18 2011, in response to Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 12:35:48 2011. I think the urban / suburban location makes a big part of the difference, but also the auto vs transit culture of an area has an impact as well.When I've attended NFL games in Atlanta, it seemed (based on my observation alone) that public transit was not heavily utilized by the fans -- despite there being good transit access to the Georgia Dome. OTOH, in more transit-oriented Seattle, there were plenty of fans arriving by public transit. Football will almost always have a lower transit penetration than baseball. With most NFL games taking place on a Sunday afternoon, fans know that the only traffic they encounter will likely be stadium traffic. With most baseball games happening on weekday evenings, there will be post rush-hour traffic as well as stadium traffic to fight. (In LA, rather than take transit, they just wait for the rush-hour to end and show up in the 4th inning). It would be interesting to compare transit ridership to Sunday afternoon baseball games to Sunday afternoon NFL games in the same city -- my guess is you wouldn't see a significant difference in percentage arriving by transit vs car. Still, given the 8 Sunday's a year usage of an NFL stadium, access to transit would not be high on my list of priorities if I were selecting a location for the stadium. CG |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by vfrt on Wed Apr 6 16:09:21 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 6 12:39:43 2011. Those parking garages near Yankee Stadium are charging $35 to park, no wonder they are only 60% full. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Easy on Wed Apr 6 16:15:17 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Charles G on Wed Apr 6 16:01:18 2011. In LA, rather than take transit, they just wait for the rush-hour to end and show up in the 4th inninglol. True enough. But to be fair despite being close to downtown Dodger Stadium is very inconvenient if you aren't driving. It's at the top of a very large hill that you access on winding streets. They have started a game day bus service from Union Station that's somewhat popular but transit to the stadium is never really going to compete with the car for most people because of the stadiums location. Downtown OTOH is the nexus for what transportation we have. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 6 16:31:08 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by vfrt on Wed Apr 6 16:09:21 2011. Wonder how it would be if we still had the Yankees football team . . . ? They played in Yankee Stadium. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by vfrt on Wed Apr 6 16:33:57 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 6 16:31:08 2011. The NY Giants played in the old yankee stadium, which was a lousy place to play football in. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 6 16:35:16 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by vfrt on Wed Apr 6 16:33:57 2011. Would you judge the new stadium as lousier for that purpose? |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Apr 6 16:40:10 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 6 16:35:16 2011. Can't be that bad, as the 'New Era Pinstripe Bowl' is set to be an annual event. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 6 17:23:24 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Easy on Wed Apr 6 14:50:05 2011. Tailgating itself is a ritual, and having an available restaurant in the area is just not gonna change that. I know people who go to Giants Stadium at 10 AM for a 4 PM game and eat there TWICE before kickoff. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by vfrt on Wed Apr 6 18:17:28 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Apr 6 16:40:10 2011. BUT the new Yankee Stadium was designed as a baseball-only stadium. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Apr 6 21:43:18 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 6 12:48:29 2011. They should check out some of the photos of open bench Connecticut Company streetcars, packed to the gills, transporting football fans through the streets of New Haven to Yale Bowl. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Easy on Wed Apr 6 21:48:12 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 6 17:23:24 2011. It's as much or even more of a ritual for college football and USC seems to do ok with relatively limited parking. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 21:53:02 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by vfrt on Wed Apr 6 16:09:21 2011. No, that's not the reason. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 21:54:31 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Apr 6 16:01:09 2011. Nah, if it was near the urban core, it would be eligible for rapid transit service. It is suburban, so it so it does not have rapid transit. It only just got commuter rail. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 22:01:36 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Easy on Wed Apr 6 14:34:31 2011. This is a pretty rough guess, but I would say that between 40% and 65% of the vehicles are in the lots by the time the gates open, 2 hours before kickoff. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Easy on Wed Apr 6 22:12:58 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Apr 6 22:01:36 2011. Thanks. That's even more than I thought. I would have guessed 1/3 but that was just a WAG based on people that I know. It could be that tailgating isn't as big in California as it is other places. Anyway I think that people will adapt. People that want to tailgate will find a way to do so and people that want to take a train will have that option.I'm pretty confidant as you can tell that AEG will get a team and a stadium downtown. They are very well connected politically and always get what they want from the LA city council. And I think that the owners are ready for a team in LA as well. The city of industry could still get a team, but only if we get two. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 05:58:08 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 6 12:48:29 2011. He's right. There's only 8 home football games a year, and those football games are all day events. Baseball games are a dime a dozen and something you do after work. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 05:59:29 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Apr 6 17:23:24 2011. Where's Giants Stadium? |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:01:27 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Easy on Wed Apr 6 14:50:05 2011. It's different. People don't go 4-6 hours or more before a baseball game, hockey game, etc to tailgate. You get some minor stuff, mostly just people drinking beers behind a car at those things, but nothing like the tailgating with football. It has nothing to do with the stadium "being farther from the core", it's a ritual that has become as much a part of a football game as the game itself, plus there's only 8 home games a season. Baseball is a dime a dozen. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:04:16 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Apr 6 13:10:39 2011. 60,000 people fit on 14 trains of bilevels? |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:05:51 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by vfrt on Wed Apr 6 16:33:57 2011. Football has evolved a lot since the 1970's. It's almost 50 years since they played there. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:06:41 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Apr 6 16:40:10 2011. That's one event a year. And the field has to be severely modified. It's done for novelty, not because it's really efficient. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:09:30 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Dekatyou on Wed Apr 6 12:41:04 2011. Yes, that's because it's not really in the baseball culture. First off, there's only 8 home football games a year, so it's much "rarer" to have football game, unlike baseball which is a few times a week sometimes. Second, it's not part of baseball culture like it is with football. People that do it with baseball are just doing it as "an excuse to drink". It's also not nearly to the extent of football. With the occasional baseball tailgating, it's usually just a few people standing around the back of a car drinking beers before the game, not the elaborate set ups most football tailgating involves. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:12:27 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Randyo on Wed Apr 6 14:27:47 2011. All of the stadiums I mentioned were accessible to mass transit and plenty of football fans used the subway lines adjacent to them to go to the games.That was 40-50 years ago, football subculture has evolved a lot since then. They didn't have the tailgating to the extent that it's done now. given the choice, football fans will elect to use mass transit rather than sit in the heavy traffic generated by a game and fume over being stuck in traffic on the way to or from a game False, the vast majority will STILL use cars. That is not to say it wouldn't be used, but the majority will always come by car because of the tailgating involved with football. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:17:07 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Easy on Wed Apr 6 22:12:58 2011. In my opinion, and I can only use the Meadowlands, Sun Life/Dolphin Stadium Stadium, Robbie/Bucks Stadium as a guide, but more than half of the cars are often there a few hours before kickoff. Certianly more than 1/3, but probably not more than 2/3.In some cities it's even more so than others, while I have never attended games there, I know Green Bay and some other cities it's almost religion. It's part of the football culture now, and is done even more today than it was just 20 years ago, it was popular then too of course, but it's gotten even more so. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Fred G on Thu Apr 7 06:17:20 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:04:16 2011. Of course not but in light of the thread title, it proves otherwise.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:19:56 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Charles G on Wed Apr 6 16:01:18 2011. Excellent post. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:23:47 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Fred G on Thu Apr 7 06:17:20 2011. Well obviously, there will always be room for transit to a football game, and not everyone will tailgate, but it's pretty safe to say that at least 60-70% will come by car because of the tailgating, and no transit in the world will stop that.It may have been hard if the Jets went to the Rail Yards stadium in Manhattan that was planned. That was one of the biggest things fans had against it. It would have resulted in a parking garage, and the BBQing and much of the tailgating etc, would not have been able to be done in an indoor multi tier parking garage for safety reasons. That was one of the major complaints people had when they were building the new stadium even at the Meadowlands, as tailgating could not be done at the office park parking lots that people were bused to and from. And at least there people knew it was only temporary. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Apr 7 06:41:13 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 05:59:29 2011. Under parking lots E and F. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Fred G on Thu Apr 7 06:46:29 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:23:47 2011. Yes, I agree that a "downtown" stadium would probably fail since tailgaiting is part of football now.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Charles G on Thu Apr 7 09:29:10 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Apr 7 06:17:07 2011. My sense is that you are over-estimating the percentage of cars arriving early. Two things that make me think this.1. Traffic. If most of the cars were arriving early, traffic around the stadiums would be at its worst two hours before the game. Yet traffic is generally at its worst about 15-30 minutes before the game. By definition, that must be the peak arrival time. 2. Geometry. If a parking lot around a building "looks" half-full -- to me, meaning that cars fill the parking lot to being half way to the edge of the lot, then the lot is really only about 25% full. (75% of the spaces will be more than 1/2 way from the stadium to the edge of the lot). If a parking lot "looks" 33% full, then it is really only 11% full. Tailgating is not nearly as big a phenomena as one might think. It only seems that way because it is (1) glorified by the networks during their pre-game coverage; and (2) the majority of people arriving at the stadium have to walk past the tailgaters as the move from their cars in the outer parts of the lot towards the actual stadium. |
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Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?! |
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Posted by Fred G on Thu Apr 7 09:54:11 2011, in response to Re: Football fans don't take mass transit?!, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Apr 6 21:43:18 2011. LOLyour pal, Fred |
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