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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 10 07:36:12 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 10 00:02:23 2010. Interesting. Thanks!Where did the connection of the stub upped turoff off the Myrtle el, that seemingly went right into a building built later, go? I can't find a photo of it right now. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Wed Mar 10 09:00:36 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 10 07:36:12 2010. I've seen the pic.The building was constructed after that piece of El was abondoned and torn down. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 10 10:04:51 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by daDouce Man on Wed Mar 10 09:00:36 2010. Correct, and it's a VERY old building too!! Shows how long the el was abandoned!Here's one of the photos I found on the net, but it's not the "famous" photo: 
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Mellow One on Wed Mar 10 10:46:31 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 10 00:02:23 2010. That is some good information. What kind of of a search did you do at the Brookyn Eagle Site?I have an Early Brooklyn El site, that contains a thumbnail sketch of the dates of opening and closing of the lines. However, I did not include the Company names. I had posted the image below of the former junction to the "Old Main Line" as a Mystery Photo a few years ago. It is a pre-WWII image of the stub to the original terminal.  This is the crossing where that accident occurred between a 5th Ave El train and a Myrtle Ave El train n 1888. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 10 11:04:26 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Mellow One on Wed Mar 10 10:46:31 2010. Is that where the train almost flew off the el because someone pulled the switch the wrong way? What year was this taken, it looks like farmland! |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Mar 10 11:14:09 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 10 00:02:23 2010. Great bit o research there, Steven! Thanks. Most of what I have gathered was either anecdotal from my jurassic Brooklyn transit mentors or from the previously published bits. I don't have access to the Brooklyn Eagle or New York Times archives yet, but now being online they will prove to be a resource for further research on the early day Brooklyn transit historical info using the writings of that time.After having lived and worked right there on the site of all this activity 80 to 100 years later, I'm astounded at the "forgotten-ness" of that intersection and much of the streets over there. The concentration of activity in such a small area must've been intense and construction frantic considering it was mostly done by hand and in a densely populated area over a pretty short period of time. The major changes made are pretty interesting to follow along 120 years later. At the time it must have seemed like a constant cacophany of humans, heavy iron, wood and steam. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Mar 10 11:20:54 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by daDouce Man on Wed Mar 10 09:00:36 2010. I believe this is it:
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Mar 10 11:22:23 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Fred G on Sat Mar 6 05:34:46 2010. True, but I am referring to laws demanding minimum standards, not the science itself. My guess is the el was built no stronger than the engineers said it had to be. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Mar 10 11:26:42 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 10 07:36:12 2010. Here at the pat cullinan site.http://pcullinan.smugmug.com/gallery/2075217#227931320_f6wDx The second from corner wood two story had its upper floor truncated to clear the el heading north on Grand. Some time in the late 80's the second floor of that wood building itself was removed. At that time it housed a clinic/doctor's office. The one on the corner was built about a decade after the el to Park Ave. came down. You could still see the patch in the street in front of the post office where the pillar of the el heading south on Grand went to Lex was removed, all the way into the early 80's. I'll have to see if I can get a copy of the slide Conrad Milster took when the el at Myrtle/Grand was coming down in 1970. Its been 30 years since I've seen it. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Mar 10 11:30:17 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Mellow One on Wed Mar 10 10:46:31 2010. The carbarn for the Manhattan Br. 3 Cent Line is in the background under the watertower. It just got torn down, having been the shop for the Ford dealer there for decades before, maybe also Potter Buick too.The slum clearing being done in this picture was in preparation for the projects. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Mar 10 11:51:44 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Mar 10 11:26:42 2010. Awesome. Some of the best pics of the el I've ever seen. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Mellow One on Wed Mar 10 11:59:29 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Mar 10 11:51:44 2010. Thank you,I have to add more pics and text. |
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Re: 3rd Avenue El |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Mar 10 12:04:03 2010, in response to Re: 3rd Avenue El, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Mar 10 01:13:28 2010. Makes one wonder how much a rebuild akin to the materials and techniques used with the MFSE would have cost. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Mellow One on Wed Mar 10 12:09:46 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Mar 10 11:26:42 2010. Ok, that is where the latest image of the Park ave El Stub at Grand Ave is. I saw the garage there too, where the line curved from Grand onto Lexington Ave. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Mellow One on Wed Mar 10 12:22:30 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Mar 10 11:20:54 2010. As many times as I rode by there back when, I did not know much about the Park Ave El until about 20 years ago, when I was corresponding with Roger Arcara about our photo trips together. We made a trip on the Myrtle El after a trip to the BEDT in 1961? (It was when the ALCO S1 Diesel switcher came there.) I remember his comment questioning how old that stub at Grand Ave was and the age of the building there. Unfortunately, we did not examine the area in detail. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 10 13:12:27 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Mellow One on Wed Mar 10 10:46:31 2010. What kind of of a search did you do at the Brookyn Eagle Site?Two very simple advanced searches: Myrtle Avenue Elevated and Myrtle Avenue Railroad from 1880 to 1902. I sorted them by date and got 1000 searches. I then went through them from 1885 on to 1893, starting with the report of the Fifth Rapid Transit Commission and ending with the Memorial Day opening of the Cypress Hills extension. I had posted the image below of the former junction to the "Old Main Line" as a Mystery Photo a few years ago. It is a pre-WWII image of the stub to the original terminal. One interesting note. This is the junction of Myrtle and Hudson Aves, from the Navy St station on the Myrtle looking west. There's a trackway in the foreground that veers at the 3 car marker. That was not part of the original design like the grade crossing in the background. It was put in before December 1889. The Navy St station was also cut back to accommodate westbound trains to turn off from the Myrtle and onto Hudson Ave and then to Park Ave. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Mellow One on Wed Mar 10 14:14:31 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 10 13:12:27 2010. Thank you very much,There is a great deal of text information in those files. I wonder what ever happen to the BRT and predecessor comapnies photographs of the additions and modifications of the El structures. The image below is at Myrtle and Hudson looking up at the former junction after the stub section was removed for the construction. 
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by daDouce Man on Wed Mar 10 15:55:53 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 10 11:04:26 2010. I think it was 2 trains trying to use the grade crossing at the same time. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 10 16:08:49 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by daDouce Man on Wed Mar 10 15:55:53 2010. No, someone mentioned here that an abandoned part of the el was still connected to the switch, and a train went down the part of the el they were tearing down. that's a different accident than the one you are talking about. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 10 17:33:12 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 10 11:04:26 2010. Is that where the train almost flew off the el because someone pulled the switch the wrong way?No. This was the location (Grand & Myrtle). |
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Myrtle Before and After Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Mar 10 20:18:19 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Mar 10 11:26:42 2010. That is a great site.Actually, I was comparing some of his views on Google Street view, and I got the extra bonus of doing a before and after even within google street view itself, as one shot was taken from when they did Myrtle, and another from when they did Taafe place, which obviously were a few years before. Check this out!! Myrtle and Taafe Pl - 1969 from the Culligan site:  Two seperate Google Street views of the same corner, which is gotten just advancing one arrow up from Myrtle!: View Larger Map View Larger Map |
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Re: 3rd Avenue El |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Mar 11 00:18:30 2010, in response to Re: 3rd Avenue El, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Mar 10 12:04:03 2010. Cost would have been an interesting situation as well. That likely would have dictated the rebuild.As some of the express stops on the middle track of the old 3rd Avenue El were actually on an upper level (based on the pictures I saw), I suspect if cost in the 1960's allowed, we would have seen a rebuild into a full two-level, four-track structure, going four tracks across at Chatam Square to allow local and express to meet there (and perhaps with the Park Row branch rebuilt first to Park Row and then eventually extended to the then-new World Trade Center around the time that officially opened in 1973, with the Park Row branch renamed the World Trade Center branch) and perhaps again at the other end at 125th or so as well. Another part of such a rebuild would likely have been with stations being lengthened (possibly to 600' to allow for 10 BMT/IND cars instead of five IRT-sized cars), we likely would have seen some stations abandoned, especially north of 34th Street while other would likely have been moved and combined (most notable of those likely would have been 84th and 89th Street on the old El combined into one stop at 86th Street), while if they did decide on the rebuild to make it for BMT/IND cars, then it likely would also have required platforms to be shaved back. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Thu Mar 11 17:33:07 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 10 00:02:23 2010. Wow, good research, and a good thread that somehow hasn'twandered way off topic! NYC transit history unfortunately lacks comprehensive documentation. There are bits and pieces in different books, articles, etc. To the best of my knowledge, there is only one book on the Brooklyn Elevated system, by Watson&Greller. It is a bit short on the narrative. Likewise the only good histories of the Manhattan Elevated system are long out of print. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Fred G on Thu Mar 11 18:22:35 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Mar 10 11:22:23 2010. True, I think engineers were always designing with economy in mind.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Mar 11 18:44:11 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Mar 10 01:06:28 2010. Too many people thing that an el is a blight, but it is just the opposite. Yes, subways are probably the better choice, but the expense involved with replacing each el with a subway is astronomical and prohibitive. |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 11 18:47:30 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Mar 11 18:44:11 2010. Don't you get annoyed with the "el" at times?It's noisy. Trains leak fluids. |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Mar 11 18:51:29 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Mar 10 01:06:28 2010. As someone who not only lived next to an el for years, but also lived right next to an elevated platform AND a curve leading to it, not only do you get used to it, something seems intrinsically wrong when you don't live next to it anymore. You really do get used to it, you get used to crossing the street under it with trains rumbling overhead, and the spokey sunlight hitting the street under it ain't so bad either. The convenience of having a train right there more than compensates for the noise that you get used to pretty quickly.Sure it'd be nice to have the trains hidden under the street, but els ain't so bad either. Better than having to trek a long distance or rot for buses to get to the train. |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Mar 11 18:53:02 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 11 18:47:30 2010. So do people, and in much larger quantities. :) |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by fisk ave jim on Thu Mar 11 18:53:38 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 11 18:47:30 2010. If you think its noisy now, you shoulda been around when the pre war (II) equiptment ruled the girders. The sound of the accelerating tracion motors on those old battleships could be heard for blocks, espically at night. |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 11 19:08:57 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Mar 11 18:53:02 2010. I just had a thought.Last week, someone suggested that the section of "el" structure on the J line @ Alabama might be weak compared to other sections around the system. I know that the J line has a timer going into Alabama, even though it's straight track and not on a grade. Maybe it's the TA's way of reducing wear and tear on an old section of structure? |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Mar 11 19:11:09 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 11 19:08:57 2010. Or maybe they just had a few extra timers sitting on a shelf and they needed the space to hold another set of books. Ya never know. :) |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 11 19:22:23 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Mar 11 19:11:09 2010. This is the kind of discussion we need BFM for.I've heard that various timers around the Eastern Division pertain to structure durability concerns. That might be one of them. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 11 19:30:27 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jeff H. on Thu Mar 11 17:33:07 2010. That is a GREAT book. Only thing is that it isn't binded very well, and the pages begin to detach from binding. A few people I know with that book had the same problem. |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 11 19:34:20 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Mar 11 18:51:29 2010. I agree. I lived only a block from the el, and the station, and I could even see it from my windows. I could hear the conductor announce the station (when they used to do that, lol), and here the trains stop and start. My street was also a bus street, so I also had the buses going past constantly.People would come to visit, and when they stayed overnight would say, "How the hell can you stand it"....and I said "stand what"? You really don't hear it anymore. When I first moved here, all you hear is crickets, and an an occasional LIRR train off in the distance with the horn blowing at the grade crossing. I couldn't sleep the first few nights with the crickets....it was so quiet. Now I am used to that..... |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 11 19:39:37 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 11 19:34:20 2010. Wow. You lived right by the library. |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Mar 11 19:42:13 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 11 19:22:23 2010. I know of two sections of el sitting in a parking lot in the Bronx that they could use if metal is the problem. :)And yeah, pen me in as well as seriously missing Bill's posts ... :( |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 11 19:43:02 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 11 19:39:37 2010. No, actually the library was about two blocks away. The M train slices diagonally through ever block |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 11 19:43:16 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 11 19:39:37 2010. No, actually the library was about two blocks away. The M train slices diagonally through every block |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Mar 11 19:54:13 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 11 18:47:30 2010. If you don't like it, don;'t move next to it. |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Mar 11 20:01:37 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Mar 11 19:34:20 2010. I've always been amused when folks from the city have stayed here and complained about the gnats balling all night. Then they wake up at 11AM in amazement that they slept away half the morning because nothing woke them up. Heh.But when the third avenue el was still running, never noticed it. |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 11 20:09:02 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by italianstallion on Thu Mar 11 19:54:13 2010. what if I go apartment hunting during a weekend when there's a GO and no trains are running and I don't realize how noisy they are? |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Mar 11 20:13:47 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 11 20:09:02 2010. Then you are stupid. You can see the train line. |
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Re: Jamaica Avenue El |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Mar 11 20:18:26 2010, in response to Re: Jamaica Avenue El, posted by italianstallion on Thu Mar 11 20:13:47 2010. Ok RIB. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu Mar 11 21:38:08 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 10 00:02:23 2010. Excellent post. Thank you for your research.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 11 22:00:04 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Mar 10 11:51:44 2010. I've just started to look at them- they DO seem awesome!! I'm trying to guess what some of the young adults pictured there must look like now...especially the chick with the headband in the first photo... |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 11 22:08:23 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Mar 10 11:26:42 2010. These are HIGH QUALITY photos. A lot of photos from that era are either of low quality, or are pretty worn. Excellent find! |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Fred G on Thu Mar 11 22:27:59 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Mar 10 11:26:42 2010. Boy those Instamatics were some cameras, no? LOL, those are some tremendous photos both in terms of subject and quality.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 11 23:38:13 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jeff H. on Thu Mar 11 17:33:07 2010. NYC transit history unfortunately lacks comprehensive documentation. There are bits and pieces in different books, articles, etc.I can appreciate the reason for the lack of a comprehensive history. Putting newspaper morgues online makes researching a lot easier. It's not just being able to stay at home rather than spend hours at either the Brooklyn Public Library or the Brooklyn Historical Society. The biggest help is the word search. I did not have to thoroughly read three years worth of Brooklyn Eagles to find 50 relevant articles. All I did was type in Myrtle Avenue Elevated and about 250 articles came up for the time period in question. It was so easy that it was like reading a novel. In fact it was too easy because I did not bother to take notes for citing references. If they succeed in digitizing everything then doing original research should prove to be more entertaining than watching television. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Fri Mar 12 02:39:40 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 11 23:38:13 2010. How accurate is the OCR? |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 12 02:41:02 2010, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue El, posted by Jeff H. on Fri Mar 12 02:39:40 2010. They've actually gotten pretty good lately, particularly for Times Roman and Bookman fonts in any size. |
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