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| Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction (582530) | |
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| (583231) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 19:03:47 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Mar 8 18:46:33 2008. Powerful argument.LIRR would likely put the Rockaway stations in zone 3, I'd figure, so that's a $160 monthly ticket without a discount. |
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| (583232) | |
Re: Thus Spake the LION: Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Mar 8 19:05:34 2008, in response to Re: Thus Spake the LION: Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Mar 8 12:46:33 2008. The super express can be used for other future eastward extensions as well, plus an LIE subway line that was also proposed a while back if need be.Indeed, a Super Express is pretty much a mandate for some LIE line and some extension beyond Jamaica Center. |
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| (583233) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Mar 8 19:05:37 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 08:52:28 2008. lol. Nobody forced you to go knee deep into that SubChat quick sand... |
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| (583236) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Mar 8 19:10:51 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Mar 8 13:13:21 2008. It's kinda ridiculous that the trip from Mineola is shorter than from Hempstead.It's kinda ridiculous that the trip from White Plains is shorter than from Scarsdale. |
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| (583238) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 19:21:07 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Mar 8 19:10:51 2008. Mineola is closer to the city than Hempstead. Scarsdale is closer to the city than White Plains. The Rockaways are CLOSER to the city than Hempstead, much closer. |
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| (583240) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 19:22:19 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Mar 8 19:05:37 2008. I knew what I was getting into before I jumped into the quicksand. It's my own fault. |
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| (583241) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 19:24:05 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Mar 8 17:59:57 2008. Williamsburg? |
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| (583245) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 19:28:13 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Mar 8 19:05:37 2008. Nobody forced you to go knee deep into that SubChat quick sand...Either Chris is a giraffe, or that was neck deep. :) |
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| (583247) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Sat Mar 8 19:29:49 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 7 18:38:29 2008. It would make the most sense to connect the Rockaway line to the subway in Rego Park. |
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| (583248) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 19:31:32 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by monorail on Sat Mar 8 11:25:43 2008. The Montauk Option failed because, yes there were NIMBY's, but also because just about 199% of Long Island's and Brooklyn's freight travels over that line. It's needed for freight. |
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| (583249) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 19:31:50 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by monorail on Sat Mar 8 11:25:43 2008. The Montauk Option failed because, yes there were NIMBY's, but also because just about 99% of Long Island's and Brooklyn's freight travels over that line. It's needed for freight. |
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| (583250) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 19:32:47 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by SMAZ on Sat Mar 8 16:47:53 2008. I think those are for Lower Manhattan Access. |
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| (583251) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Sat Mar 8 19:33:29 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by trainsarefun on Fri Mar 7 21:11:47 2008. But wouldn't that also spell the end of all NYCT service to the Rockaways? |
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| (583252) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 19:34:23 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Mar 8 11:34:29 2008. He's right. AirTrain is built to railroad standard. |
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| (583254) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 19:36:18 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Mar 8 13:57:12 2008. They still have the A train too. Those going to lower Manhattan would probably still keep the A train as their route. Upper Manhattan may chose the route via the abandoned part. |
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| (583255) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Sat Mar 8 19:36:31 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Mar 8 11:29:28 2008. It might. I think it would still be a faster route into Midtown Manhattan. When you take the A, you ramp onto the Liberty Avenue el, then go through Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan before you finally get to Midtown. |
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| (583260) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Sat Mar 8 19:43:52 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 14:08:10 2008. Who's "they"? The LIRR abandoned the Rockaway part after the fire and abandoned the rest of the line after the IND started service on the line. |
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| (583265) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Mar 8 19:46:56 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 13:49:56 2008. LIRR runs at higher speeds65mph? |
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| (583267) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 19:49:35 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sat Mar 8 19:43:52 2008. The entire line was supposed to be used for subway service, the northern part was never supposed to be abandoned. In fact, it was NEVER formally abandoned, it was just put into "disuse". That's why the line was never scrapped, and all the rails, etc remained.Money was not available to convert the whole line at the time, so they chose the cheaper version connecting it to the Liberty El. It wss supposed to eventually taken completely over by the subway. |
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| (583268) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 19:50:58 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 14:08:10 2008. It was not a mistake to convert to subway, the line would never have gotten the frequent service the subway provides, with the LIRR.The northern part of the line was also supposed to become subway, but money ran out, so it was only connected to the Liberty el. THAT is where the mistake was made, the mistake was not the conversion itself, just that the whole line wasn't used. |
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| (583271) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 19:59:22 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Sat Mar 8 19:33:29 2008. It would. It's a big choice, and a poster here has come up with the most potent argument so far: LIRR would cost more money, and it's a less affluent area where the ridership might not be able to afford to $160 monthly tickets. |
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| (583274) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Mar 8 20:05:33 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Mar 8 18:46:33 2008. Precisely. Only if LIRR offered some sort of different fare structure for stops south of Howard Beach would it work, and even that is pushing it |
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| (583277) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Mar 8 20:07:35 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Sat Mar 8 19:29:49 2008. Not really, because it is going to have to be a local line on QB then. |
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| (583278) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 20:08:34 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sat Mar 8 19:43:52 2008. "They" = the powers the be at the time and since then.Given the distance that the Rockaways sit at, tucked in their own corner of the map, commuter rail would be a faster travel solution than the TA. |
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| (583279) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 20:09:37 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 20:08:34 2008. Commuter rail will not offer the frequencies of headways that the subway offers, nor the price. |
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| (583280) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Mar 8 20:09:46 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 19:34:23 2008. Interesting....but still kinda useless considering no where in either system are 3 car trains useful unless they go express to the CBD |
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| (583281) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 20:10:09 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 19:50:58 2008. I don't know about that - the perennial complaint, right up to the present day, is that NYCT service from the Rockaways is not as fast as commuter rail would be. |
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| (583282) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 20:10:26 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Mar 8 20:07:35 2008. It HAS to be a local, as the bellouths connect to the local tracks. |
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| (583284) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Mar 8 20:12:57 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 20:09:37 2008. Frequencies isn't so much a problem as price is. Price is basically what makes LIRR DOA for the Rockaways. Sorry, even I'm coming to the realization that LIRR is out. The only way you could use LIRR is if it went to Howard Beach and then(oh no, dare I say it!?) took over airtrain(OH NOES WHAT HAVE I BEGUN!!!!) |
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| (583285) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Mar 8 20:13:33 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 20:10:09 2008. Yes, but the complainers will then complain that LIRR is not as affordable as NYCT, a big issue for that area |
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| (583286) | |
Re: Subway Service to Rockaways is Vital |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Mar 8 20:13:35 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 19:03:47 2008. Bringing NYCT to the Rockaways was definitely the right thing to do. Train service frequency could be better, but it's still pretty good and reliable and a lifeline for the Peninsula.Preserving decent service to the Peninsula is also one of the reasons why MTA declined to branch the A train a third time to send a train into JFK. |
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| (583287) | |
Re: Thus Spake the LION: Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Mar 8 20:16:46 2008, in response to Re: Thus Spake the LION: Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by Bob Andersen on Sat Mar 8 17:33:05 2008. Me=pwnedStill, what to do with the stretch between Winfield and Sunnyside. There are only a few spots where you can fit subway tracks. For the most part though, you'd have to put them either above or below the LIRR. |
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| (583288) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Mar 8 20:17:50 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 20:10:26 2008. Then I ask, what does everyone think running time would be from Rockaways to midtown via QB local? If it ends up being faster still, then fine for now I guess |
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| (583289) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 20:19:25 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Mar 8 19:46:56 2008. Here's an example. On your average local run on the Pt Washington Branch, from Bayside to NYP, the train does an average speed of 27 mph; the express run is about 38 mph average speed. The train never travels in excess of 60 mph during the entire run.LIRR does, to be sure, have sections of track rated for up to 80 mph, although passenger locomotives can only travel at up to 65 mph, I think. |
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| (583291) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 20:22:34 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Mar 8 20:12:57 2008. I agree too on the price argument, so I think that kills the LIRR option just as lots of additional expense kills the NYCT option. The no-build option wins, i.e., look for a different project. |
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| (583292) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 20:24:07 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 20:09:37 2008. The frequency argument isn't fatal, I think, but the ticket price argument is. Perhaps if incomes on the peninsula approach that of LIRR territory, it becomes workable, but only at some future dates. |
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| (583293) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 20:25:27 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Mar 8 20:13:33 2008. Agreed.Well then, they'll have to grin and bear things as they are. |
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| (583294) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Mar 8 20:26:50 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 20:24:07 2008. There are people moving into the Peninsula with that kind of income, but removing subway service is still a bad idea, because you will always have a portion of the population who will need it.Besides, LIRR service is available there. Just cross the city boundary. |
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| (583295) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Mar 8 20:31:28 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 20:19:25 2008. Generally accurate.The M1 consists on the mainline did reach 90 mph on occasion in the past, though officially the speed limit is 80. I would be in favor of closing more RR crossings (replacing them with overpasses/underpasses) and increasing max authorized speed to 90 or 100 for MU consists. |
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Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 20:40:11 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Mar 8 20:31:28 2008. From what I've read, sustained speeds over 90 mph aren't a good idea with third rail.For most LIRR trains, increasing the acceleration rates so as to preserve comfort would help more than increasing the top speed. |
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| (583300) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Mar 8 20:43:53 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 20:40:11 2008. "From what I've read, sustained speeds over 90 mph aren't a good idea with third rail."Not true, actually. The M1 was designed for 100 mph on third rail. There would be no problem doing it except on very hot days or icy conditions. On express runs of the length LIRR does, acceleration doesn't matter a whole lot. Jamaica to Mineola, for example. |
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Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Mar 8 20:45:23 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Mar 8 20:43:53 2008. Acceleration on M7s already approaches that available on the subway. |
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| (583302) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Mar 8 20:46:33 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 20:22:34 2008. I think NYCT still has a chance. Make it a crappy local service to Ozone Park or even to the Rockaways if it still results in time savings, and if it's ever built, run it via Queens Super Express |
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| (583313) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Mar 8 21:08:20 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 19:21:07 2008. Re-read what I said and re-check the map. |
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| (583318) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Mar 8 21:11:55 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sat Mar 8 05:37:25 2008. Well, once East Side Access opens and if LIRR can get the Third Track project underway, it would not be unreasonable to talk about adding additional service to Ozone Park. |
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| (583322) | |
Re: Thus Spake the LION: Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by FarRock on Sat Mar 8 21:21:48 2008, in response to Re: Thus Spake the LION: Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 8 12:51:14 2008. I'm not too much up on the knowledge on the knowledge of Queends BLVD expres tracks east of Roosevelt.Whats the (F)s TPH? |
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| (583325) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Mar 8 21:28:13 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 19:24:05 2008. Williamsburg lost its direct connection to the Queens Line, and the MTA said there was no spare track capacity (although I sort of suspect that it is actually cars that were the limiting factor). |
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| (583328) | |
Re: Thus Spake the LION: Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by FarRock on Sat Mar 8 21:31:30 2008, in response to Re: Thus Spake the LION: Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by FarRock on Sat Mar 8 21:21:48 2008. I typed that too fast.I dont know too much about the Queens Blvd Exp tracks east of Roosevelt. Whats the (F)s TPH? |
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| (583330) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by FarRock on Sat Mar 8 21:33:17 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Mar 8 18:46:33 2008. I dont think anybody out here would be stupid enough to let LIRR style fares takeover NYCT style fares. |
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| (583335) | |
Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Mar 8 21:40:16 2008, in response to Re: Re-Open LIRR 'White Pot Junction, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 8 20:10:26 2008. No it does not, and no you do not need to even use those bellmouths.Let it follow the LIRR for a few hundred feet as it either ascends or descends to a new line (elevated or subway) but following the existing LIRR ROW. It would make local stops that the LIRR does not make, but they would be much further apart than older subway local stops. An elevated structure would get it over to the 63rd Street tunnel more easily, and then it could root out an accommodation with the (F) train through the upper level of said crossing. You must erase from your heads, from your planning, connections with the existing subway system. IT IS MAXED OUT! (It just so happens that there *is* capacity in the 63rd for a BWAY EXP service. Thus the Nancy to Howard is possible. If you do not *like* my plan, then take your plan, roll it up, stick it in your ear, and set fire to it. ROAR |
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