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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 10:16:38 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 09:27:04 2008. The JFK Express itself was I believe $3.95 or something over the regular subway fare (which of course also had to be paid to get into the subway to begin with). Someone mentioned that there was also a $2 fee from the Howard Beach station though sometime around the same time. I don't know if that is fact or not, that is what I am trying to find out if that is factual or not. |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Mar 3 10:20:34 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 09:27:04 2008. Did you have to pay the extra fare to go through a turnstyle exiting at Howard Beach? Or was it collected by a conductor on the train? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 10:52:29 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 09:27:04 2008. They took your extra $3.95 (or whatever the premium fare for the JFK Express was) when you boarded the train. I believe they only opened one car or one set of doors, but I don't remember. I remember it stopping at Jay St-Borough Hall, and I think they only opened one set of doors or so.Anyway, I also heard that at Howard Beach, they charged regular subway people $2 to get on the bus if they didn't have a JFK Express slip. I don't know if that is fact (and was trying to find out), but the AirTrain bashers that say I was ignoring points seemed to have ignored that every time that $2 thing came up, which has got to be about 6 or 7 times now in this thread, so I can't confirm that |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 10:54:37 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 10:16:38 2008. I only recall reading stuff on the maps, since JFK express was already gone, I think, by the time I turned 10. I recall something about a free PA bus. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 11:02:32 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Mar 3 10:20:34 2008. GP38 Chris indicates it was usually an on-board fare. Check out his posts. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 11:03:25 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 10:54:37 2008. Yes, the PA Bus was free after the JFK Express was abolished around 1990 or 1991. But this $2 thing at Howard Beach apparently was from when the late 1970's to 1990 (or some time in there). Apparently if you did not pay for the JFK Express, normal subway prople from the A, C, or H had to pay $2 to get on the bus if they didn't have a JFK slip. I don't know if that was the whole time the JFK Express ran, or part of it, but of course that would have been gone once the special service was abolished. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 11:04:49 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 11:03:25 2008. If true there there is a precident (as an AirTrain basher brought up) for charging a special fee at Howard Beach. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 11:14:12 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 11:04:49 2008. If true, yes.But then again, I don't have any use for this talk of 'precedent'. This isn't a courthouse! I'm more interested in particular features of this Airtrain system and its neighbors, coupled with the motivations used by various agencies and constituencies. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 11:21:38 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 11:14:12 2008. Neither do I actually. As I said when "precedent" was brought up by the AirTrain bashers, I right away said 'who cares", it doesn't matter.However, since I was told that I "ignored" points, and this $2 thing was brought up by someone, and also me, I figured this can counteract their supposed "use" of precedent. Also, this $2 thing was ignored by the couple AirTrain bashers. If true, there was a historical use of a special fee for subway people to access the bus at Howard Beach. I don't care, as I find that the past is not relevent in fare structure on the present, however, I find it interesting that this point was totally ignored by the Airtrain bashers when brought up (and only because I was accused unjustly of ignoring points). |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 11:25:45 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 11:21:38 2008. The 'bashers' have an easy enough retort, even if there was an access fee charged even before Airtrain: The JFK Express train fee was UNJUST, IMMORAL, WRONG, CRIMINAL, etc. too!!!!!!!!!!!Can't you just SEE that???????? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 11:30:51 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 11:25:45 2008. Of course. AirTrain is morally wrong, criminal, disgusting, and unjust. So of course that extra $2 for the subway people to access the bus must have been criminal, morally wrong and unjust too, as why should anyone have to pay for such a shuttle service.It's all on Airport property you know! |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 11:41:42 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 11:30:51 2008. YES!I knew if they just repeated it to you long enough, you would know that it must be right. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 12:42:49 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 11:25:45 2008. Why do write these stupid things? How could the JFK Express fee be unjust if there was still the regular A service to take to Howard Beach that charged no extra fare? Why do you waste time making these ridiculous claims instead of focusing on the discussion at hand? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 12:42:55 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 11:25:45 2008. Why do you write these stupid things? How could the JFK Express fee be unjust if there was still the regular A service to take to Howard Beach that charged no extra fare? Why do you waste time making these ridiculous claims instead of focusing on the discussion at hand? |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Mar 3 12:50:56 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 12:42:49 2008. Obsessing again? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:09:54 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 11:41:42 2008. Nope. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:13:42 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 12:42:55 2008. http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=576677http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=579897 Etc. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:15:50 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Feb 25 22:07:38 2008. MTA used to charge $2 there unless you had a JFK Express ticket and you weren't allowed to go to the parking lot from there.Like I said: There was no charge from the PANYNJ. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:16:29 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:13:42 2008. from what was posted, this is not the same thing. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:19:48 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:15:50 2008. Thank you for finally responding to that (even if half assedly). I figured that is why that was picked not to respond to, as there goes the precedent card, a extra fare was in fact charged at Howard Beach in the past. Not that I care, but you seemed to use that over and over in the past. At least we got that out of the way now. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Mon Mar 3 13:20:41 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 11:25:45 2008. Um, before the Airtain opened, the Port Authority had two free shuttle bus routes. Therefore $5 from HB is a ripoff. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:24:56 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Mon Mar 3 13:20:41 2008. We went through this already. The $5 is not a rip off, there used to be a $2 charge when JFK Express was running for people entering from Howard Beach but who didn't have a JFK Express Slip. This was done for some time until the JFK Express was gone. Then for 10 years people lucked out, got a free ride on an unreliable bus. AirTrain replaces that unreliable shuttle and once again a fee is charged for use of that more convenient and seamless connection, this time by the PA instead of the MTA. Either way, there used to be a fee at Howard Beach, so it's a return to that once a better service was provided once again.Therefore $5 from HB is a ripoff. Thanks for your OPINION. But this has already been discussed at nauseum here. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:26:31 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:16:29 2008. Oh really? But at least that "precedent" card can be flung away once and for all (not that I agreed "precedent" was relevant anyway, but a few AirTrain bashers thought it was. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:27:07 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:19:48 2008. You obviously did not read what I wrote. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:27:27 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:09:54 2008. Oops, sorry, I posted that in the wrong post! |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 13:29:34 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 12:42:49 2008. Why do [you] write these stupid things?As GP38 Chris rightly noted, the reasoning is parallel to that used by you in criticizing the JFK Airtrain access fee. You've poisoned your own argumentative dagger and then stabbed yourself with it: How could the JFK Express fee be unjust if there was still the regular A service to take to Howard Beach that charged no extra fare? By the same reasoning, how could the JFK Airtrain fee be unjust if there is still the local bus service from assorted subway stations and other locations that charges no access fee? Why do you waste time making these ridiculous claims instead of focusing on the discussion at hand? Is that a collapsing argument that I hear? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:29:42 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:24:56 2008. We went through this already. The $5 is not a rip off, there used to be a $2 charge when JFK Express was running for people entering from Howard Beach but who didn't have a JFK Express Slip.Charged by whom? Then for 10 years people lucked out, got a free ride on an unreliable bus. How was it unreliable? And how do you know the previous bus wasn't just as "unreliable"? AirTrain replaces that unreliable shuttle and once again a fee is charged for use of that more convenient and seamless connection, this time by the PA instead of the MTA. There is no precedent for a fee being charged by the airport to access the airport property. Either way, there used to be a fee at Howard Beach, so it's a return to that once a better service was provided once again. Nope, see above. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:30:17 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:26:31 2008. nope. there is no precedent for the ped toll. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:30:32 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:27:07 2008. Yes I did. The PA didn't charge that $2 at Howard Beach, but the MTA did si what you are saying.Either way, "someone" was (quote-unquote) "ripping off" the subway people at Howard Beach, and charging them $2 in uninflated 70's dollars to tranbfer from Howard Beach NYCT station to the shuttle bus if they didn't hold a JFK Express slip. Imagine that, "charging" for a service. It's irrelevant who was doing the charging, the PA who owns the airport or the MTA. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:31:53 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:30:17 2008. There is no pedestrian toll. There is a fee for AirTrain however, just like the MTA used to charge non JFK Express people a $2 fee for the shuttle bus. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:32:58 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 13:29:34 2008. As GP38 Chris rightly noted, the reasoning is parallel to that used by you in criticizing the JFK Airtrain access fee.No it's not. Not even close! By the same reasoning, how could the JFK Airtrain fee be unjust if there is still the local bus service from assorted subway stations and other locations that charges no access fee? Hahahahaah! Tell me how you can get into the airport for free from Howard Beach. This should be interesting. Is that a collapsing argument that I hear? No, it is an honest question. You are making these ridiculous posts to deflect the fact that you have no argument. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:37:00 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:29:42 2008. Charged by whom?The MTA apparently. How was it unreliable? And how do you know the previous bus wasn't just as "unreliable"? AirTrain is a lot more seamless and able to attract passengers than the shuttle bus that preceded it. There is no precedent for a fee being charged by the airport to access the airport property. The airport still isn't charging people to "access airport property". They are charging people who didn't park in the parking lot a fee to use THEIR AirTrain. They could require slips when parking, so that would end the semantics problem with some people arriving via "kiss and ride", but that would be a lot of wasted money and work for something that is only a minor semantics problem. Nope, see above. Sure it is, that's why those posts were completely ignored and avoided for half the thread until you were called on it (and I only called on it because I was accused of avoiding points). |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:38:19 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:30:32 2008. Oy veh.It is 100% relevant who is doing the charging!!!!!!!!! That's the whole point! In San Fran, IIRC, BART charges you extra to go to the SF airport circulator because BART is carrying you the distance ON TO THE PROPERTY! The SF airport free circulator does not charge anything! I have NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. It makes COMPLETE SENSE. The MTA charged for the bus at HB because they were running it!!!!! Not the PA!!!!! There's nothing wrong with that!!!!!!! Then, the PA took over the bus route and since it is an on-the-property bus route, they DID NOT CHARGE FOR IT. They also allowed free access into the parking lot. Then they built airtrain and they sealed up the free entrance to the parking lot. That's wrong. It was open. They have no right to seal it up just so they can charge a ped toll to get onto the free circulator. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:39:55 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:31:53 2008. No, there is a pedestrian toll to get onto the property. From there, you can take the free circulator for free. There is no parallel to the old 3rd-party service operating on the airport property. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:45:34 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:37:00 2008. The MTA apparently.Which is why your argument falls flat. AirTrain is a lot more seamless and able to attract passengers than the shuttle bus that preceded it. I asked about the pay buses vs the free buses. The airport still isn't charging people to "access airport property". Yes it is. Everyone else can access the property, and the circulator, at no charge. They are charging people who didn't park in the parking lot a fee to use THEIR AirTrain. People in the parking lot are not beign charged to ride the free circulator. It is a .... free .... airport .... circulator. They could require slips when parking, so that would end the semantics problem with some people arriving via "kiss and ride", It wouldn't end anything. People from the kiss and ride would still get to ride airtrain for free. People dropped off at the terminals would still get to ride free. People parking would still get to ride free. People making connections would still get to ride free. EVERYONE would still get to ride free (as they should, it is a FREE AIRPORT CIRCULATOR) except the people coming from the A train. That is wrong. Sure it is, that's why those posts were completely ignored and avoided for half the thread until you were called on it (and I only called on it because I was accused of avoiding points). No, I had not read those posts. There are at least 3 days worth of posts I have not read. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 13:45:51 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Mon Mar 3 13:20:41 2008. Um, before the Airtain opened, the Port Authority had two free shuttle bus routes. Therefore $5 from HB is a ripoff.But this isn't a syllogism, just to be clear; it's your conjecture. As with: 'Um, before the Airtrain opened, the MTA had only a dime fare. Therefore today's $2 fare for local buses and subway trains is a ripoff.' And you're certainly entitled to think that it's a ripoff. I, myself, think that it's a bit steep too, all things considered. but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China, as the old saying goes? There are still other ways - and even cheaper ways than Airtrain - to get to the airport terminals. One is hardly forced to use Airtrain. The mass transit alternatives are listed on system maps. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Mar 3 13:45:53 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:38:19 2008. "Oy veh."Zmear! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:48:27 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:32:58 2008. As GP38 Chris rightly noted, the reasoning is parallel to that used by you in criticizing the JFK Airtrain access fee.No it's not. Not even close! That's the best you can rebut with? Yes, it's very close actually. When JFK Express was running, subway people at HB that didn't take said JFK Express were charged $2 (in uninflated 1970's dollars) "pedestrian toll" [ic, but that's the term that was used] to ride the shuttle bus to the terminals. Today, $5 (or some amount depending on person's card) is charged for the use of an AirTrain, a seamless new service to the terminals. By the same reasoning, how could the JFK Airtrain fee be unjust if there is still the local bus service from assorted subway stations and other locations that charges no access fee? Hahahahaah! Tell me how you can get into the airport for free from Howard Beach. This should be interesting. People using the A train to Lefferts Blvd can use the Q10 to arrive at the airport. Just as YOU SAID people can chose Jamaica or Howard Beach to use AirTrain, and if they chose Jamaica (as you said), it would be their choice if they came in that way to pay the $5 (assuming HB was free). In the same sentence, people wanting to avoid the $5 [ic] "pedestrian toll" are free to take the A train to Lefferts Blvd and arrive that way to Federal Circle where they can avoid the $5. They can also use some bus from the 3 line at new lots (from what I hear). But the A is a much better example as alternate A's go between Howard Beach and Lefferts, so for the same ride from Manhattan (almost) they can chose a $5 ride which will be quicker via Airtrain, or they can take the Q10 with a free transfer. Both clientele are served equally. No one is WALKING to Howard beach anyway. No, it is an honest question. You are making these ridiculous posts to deflect the fact that you have no argument And you are making these grasping at straws posts with no substance because you couldn't rebut what he said. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted that post with no substance as a response, twice I might add. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 13:51:20 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:38:19 2008. They have no right to seal it upBut you keep saying that it's their property. Now they have no right to limit access to their property? Because???? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:57:37 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:38:19 2008. It is 100% relevant who is doing the charging!!!!!!!!! That's the whole point! In San Fran, IIRC, BART charges you extra to go to the SF airport circulator because BART is carrying you the distance ON TO THE PROPERTY! The SF airport free circulator does not charge anything! I have NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. It makes COMPLETE SENSE.But AirTrain to HB is not the circulator. People from the subway at Howard Beach were paying $2 fee "pedestrian toll" [ic] in uninflated 1970's dollars to ride the shuttle bus. Today, they pay $5 for AirTrain. Either way, subway people are being charged for the remainder of the trip to the terminals (except for a 10 year reprieve while there was no premium service offered at HB). It's semantics who is doing the charging. Now for BART. The MTA OWNED the ROW into the airport, and had every right to build some rail link using the subway if they so chosed. They chose NOT to, and the PA took the bulls by the horn and did so. If the A train terminated at Federal circle, I would say otherwise. BUT IT DOESN'T. Then, the PA took over the bus route and since it is an on-the-property bus route, they DID NOT CHARGE FOR IT. They also allowed free access into the parking lot Only after all premium services were stopped for about 10 years. During that time, no premium services were being offered to or from Howard Beach. Then they built airtrain and they sealed up the free entrance to the parking lot. That's wrong. It was open. They have no right to seal it up just so they can charge a ped toll to get onto the free circulator. Right, because otherwise people would try to evade the AirTrain fee. Before, they had JFK Express slips, and those that didn't have one were charged $2 (in uninflated 1970's dollars). Today, there are no slips, but people are charged a $5 fee for the AirTrain service provided. Those not willing to pay that (can take a similar A train to Lefferts Blvd, and arrive into the Airport that way without using the premium service available at Howard Beach. There is no "pedestrian toll" [ic] to enter airport property there. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 14:02:32 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:48:27 2008. Yes, it's very close actually.Nope, not even close. The MTA charged the extra fare for providing the service. This is the PA charging the ped toll for access to airport property. People using the A train to Lefferts Blvd... No, the example given was that the Train to the Plane extra fare was unjust. I said it was not as there was a parallel no-extra-fare service to the exact same place - Howard Beach. I then asked for you to tell me what is the PARALLEL FREE SERVICE from Howard Beach to the terminals. And you are making these grasping at straws posts with no substance because you couldn't rebut what he said. No, I am making valid points. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 14:03:09 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 13:51:20 2008. No, I said: "They have no right to seal it up just so they can charge a ped toll to get onto the free circulator." |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 14:12:24 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 14:02:32 2008. This is the PA charging the ped toll for access to airport property.No, there is no "toll" to enter Airport property. There is a fee to use AirTrain from Howard Beach subway station. And the fence is closed to avoid people trying to evade that fee. Free access is completely allowed from the subway's other A service via Lefferts. Anyone not wanting to use the more convenient AirTrain from Howard Beach are completely free to enter that gate in the airport if they so choose via the Q10 (or some other buse lines). No, the example given was that the Train to the Plane extra fare was unjust. I said it was not as there was a parallel no-extra-fare service to the exact same place - Howard Beach. I then asked for you to tell me what is the PARALLEL FREE SERVICE from Howard Beach to the terminals. The Train to the Plane Extra fare was just, just like charging non train to the plane people $2 for the bus shuttle. Very Just. As for Howard Beach. There is a PARALLEL FREE SERVICE from the A's Lefferts terminal via the free tansfer Q10. Same 1/2 A train service, different terminal for each half. Equal access for anyone using the A line, depending on which service they choose. NO ONE of any consequense is WALKING to Howard Beach. Just about all of them are coming in via the subway. The same subway (via a different A Train) goes to Lefferts. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 14:12:37 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 13:57:37 2008. But AirTrain to HB is not the circulator.Yes it is. It is free, it's on the property, and no one pays for it. It's semantics who is doing the charging. No it's not. I've been clear on it all along. There is no precedent for an airport charging an access fee to get onto its property. Now for BART. The MTA OWNED the ROW into the airport, and had every right to build some rail link using the subway if they so chosed. They chose NOT to, and the PA took the bulls by the horn and did so. If the A train terminated at Federal circle, I would say otherwise. BUT IT DOESN'T What does that have to do with BART? Who said BART owns the ROW? Only after all premium services were stopped for about 10 years. During that time, no premium services were being offered to or from Howard Beach. Right, there was a free bus offered by the PA. A bus similar to the ones taken by the people from the long term lot. They had a free bus too. Everyone had a free bus. Everyone paid the same. Now that has changed. Right, because otherwise people would try to evade the AirTrain fee. There is no airtrain fee. Airtrain to HB is a free on-property circulator. It is free for everyone, as are all on-property circulars in this country. It's just that subway transferees are being charged a ped toll. Those not willing to pay that (can take a similar A train to Lefferts Blvd, and arrive into the Airport that way without using the premium service available at Howard Beach. Nope. People can get a bus from NYCT to the Lefferts Blvd stop and board airtrain for free. The Lefferts stop is just a ways away from the HB stop of AirTrain. There is no reason the subway passengers should be charged to ride from HB to Lefferts. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 14:12:47 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 13:32:58 2008. Tell me how you can get into the airport for free from Howard Beach.First off, you strike me as smart enough to use maps, and I gather that you aren't physically handicapped. But in case you're having trouble with your navigational skills, I'm sure that someone here can help you find your way. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 14:15:41 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 14:03:09 2008. No, I said: "They have no right to seal it upOpinion. just so they can charge a ped toll Correction: Fee for AirTrain. to get onto the free circulator." It's not the free circulator. It's a paid service from Jamaica or Howard beach (which is waived for parking lot people). Free access to the FREE CIRCULATOR portion of AirTrain is obtainable via the Leffert's portion of the A train via the Q10, if the $5 is not desirable for some people. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 14:19:09 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 14:12:24 2008. No, there is no "toll" to enter Airport property.Yes there is. People boarding at the HB station from anywhere but the subway do so for free. And the fence is closed to avoid people trying to evade that fee. No, the fence was closed so that they could charge the fee. Anyone not wanting to use the more convenient AirTrain from Howard Beach are completely free to enter that gate in the airport if they so choose via the Q10 (or some other buse lines). And one or more of those buses take you to the Lefferts stop of the AirTrain. Therefor the people from the A at H B are being charged a $5 fare (in your words) just to ride from HB to Lefferts, where other NYCT transferees board for free. The Train to the Plane Extra fare was just, just like charging non train to the plane people $2 for the bus shuttle. Very Just. They are unrelated to the current issue, which is the PA charging for access to its own property, something no other airport does in the country that I am aware of. And only some peoiple get charged. Very few in fact, with respect to everyone entering the property. As for Howard Beach. There is a PARALLEL FREE SERVICE from the A's Lefferts terminal via the free tansfer Q10. Same 1/2 A train service, different terminal for each half. Equal access for anyone using the A line, depending on which service they choose. NO ONE of any consequense is WALKING to Howard Beach. Just about all of them are coming in via the subway. The same subway (via a different A Train) goes to Lefferts. No. The (A) parallel TTTTP all the way to HB. I want to know what free service parallels AirTrain from the HB subway station to the Lefferts airtrain station. There is none. You have to take a non-parallel service to make that trip for free. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 14:20:18 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Mar 3 14:12:47 2008. Answer the question in the context. You know what I am asking. And stop making these ridiculous posts. At least Chris only makes intelligent posts. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 14:22:14 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 14:15:41 2008. opinion based on factsit is a ped toll in actuality, but not in presentation. It is a free circulator. It is wholly on the property, and anyone on the property is not charged for it. Therefore it is a free circulator. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Mar 3 14:27:55 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Mar 3 14:12:37 2008. Yes it is. It is free, it's on the property, and no one pays for it.No, the circulator is free. There are two paid branches however, one from Jamaica, and one from Howard Beach. The fee is waived for parking lot people. No it's not. I've been clear on it all along. There is no precedent for an airport charging an access fee to get onto its property. Precedent is irrelevant, and except for a 10 year reprieve when there was no premium services at Howard Beach, access to use various shuttles/transport from Howard Beach was provided for a fee ($2 in noninflated 1970's dollars for non JFK Express people. Back then, no fence was necessary, as fare evaders were handled by having a "JFK Express" slip which allowed them to access the shuttle bus for free while anyone that didn't have that had to pat $2. When there was no premium services there for the 1990's, there was no fee charged, when the MTA dropped the JFK Express. Once AirTrain was provided, for the parking lot people to have access to the train too, but those coming from the Howard Beach station had to pay the fare (just like before the 1990). Instead of a "slip system" they have instead used a fence to avoid fare beating. A lot neater and easier to impliment than requiring all the parking lot people to need a fare. In this time, the MTA owned a ROW into the airport, which could have provided subway service to a free circulator. The MTA decided to forego this ROW in favor of the PA building Airtrain instead, so the subway train has no access to the free circulator part of AirTrain like the paid branches of Jamaica and Howard Beach do once a fee is charged. Nope. People can get a bus from NYCT to the Lefferts Blvd stop and board airtrain for free. The Lefferts stop is just a ways away from the HB stop of AirTrain. There is no reason the subway passengers should be charged to ride from HB to Lefferts. Right, but you asked how people can ride "for free" from Howard beach. I told you how (I am surprised you didn't know about the free transfer to the Q10 at Lefferts). Since most people are not walking to Howard Beach, but instead are subway riders that have access to both Lefferts and Far Rockaway/Howard Beach A trains, the ones that want the seamless premium service AirTrain provides take Howard Beach A trains, the few that find that too much or want a free transfer can use a similar A train to Lefferts where access to the airport and the free circulator will be provided. |
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