|
|
| Re: Air Train question (567079) | |
 |
|
| Home > SubChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
Page 16 of 29 |
||
|
| (579148) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 1 22:28:03 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Mar 1 22:23:39 2008. No, that's not what I said. I said they have to charge a fare at Howard Beach because they charge one from Jamaica. I also explained why that is probably done. I also explained the only reason the HB station was built where it is. This was all discussed already at nauseum. Nothing new here. |
|
|
| (579153) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 1 22:32:38 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Mar 1 19:02:12 2008. I'd asked: "And if the PA put up a fence and gate system to screen who paid for parking and charged those that didn't, what would you think?"You responded: they would have no reason to do that according to chris. Evasion noted. (Nevermind that I think Chris's position was that he doubted whether the Howard Beach station would have been built if the PA hadn't been able to charge an access fee equivalent to that at Jamaica). So are we going to get YOUR answer, instead of those you suppose other people might give? |
|
|
| (579155) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 1 22:43:09 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Mar 1 19:01:19 2008. i already addressed that.You think that you already addressed that, yes. But thinking and doing aren't the same thing. sorry. you lose. I think there's likely only one sure loser on this forum; and it's not me. Out of respect for our high standards of decorum I'll have to leave it ambiguous who, if anyone, that might be. |
|
|
(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
|
| (579159) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 1 22:49:04 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 1 22:26:13 2008. Or you could say that it's roughly time-based in terms of the fee to use Airtrain as a non-circulator. |
|
|
| (579194) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 00:09:15 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 1 22:22:52 2008. You are really grasping at straws if you need to explain it away by saying it wouldn't be a circulator if it was on a big loop! Look at it now! It IS part of the circulator! It is ON THE FREAKING PROPERTY! 100% OF IT! PEOPLE FROM THE PARKING LOT BOARD THERE! A fare is being charged for people coming from a connecting transit service to ride a ON-PROPERTY AIRPORT CIRCULATOR, something that is done NO WHERE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY. Stop trying to justify it and admit that it is abnormal and contrary to what makes sense. |
|
|
| (579195) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 00:11:18 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 1 22:24:51 2008. You can not agree all you want. But the facts show that it is 100% on the property and people from the property even board there for free, and everyone who boards there, whether they pay a fare or not, board there ON THE PROPERTY. Since the definition of an on-property circulator is something that circulates people on the property, you have NO basis to call it anything else. |
|
|
| (579199) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 00:12:23 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 1 22:26:13 2008. It matters according to you!!! You wrote that they only charge the fare because they had to build it AN EXTRA DISTANCE!@@@!!!!!!! |
|
|
| (579202) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 00:13:27 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 1 22:28:03 2008. I said they have to charge a fare at Howard Beach because they charge one from Jamaica.Of course that's why! DUH!!!!! But we're saying it's NOT RIGHT! NOT VALID! Understand? It's not JUSTIFIED. |
|
|
| (579203) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 00:14:04 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 1 22:32:38 2008. What evasion? Address my points, not Chris's. |
|
|
| (579204) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 00:15:02 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Mar 1 22:43:09 2008. I already addressed it, and you lose. Try reading the thread again. And when you're ready to have a serious discussion, let me know. |
|
|
| (579242) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 2 02:52:15 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 22:59:00 2008. So? How does that follow from my post? |
|
|
| (579243) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 2 02:56:17 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 23:05:47 2008. No, because part of Airtrain is a circulator.Irrelevant. Airport circulators needn't be free. An airport can build a circulator and charge whatever fare it damn well pleases. The AirTrain does not charge a fare for its circulator except at one entrance to one station, which makes it highly inequitable. Why are you requoting and then responding to your own sentence? |
|
|
| (579244) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 2 02:59:01 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 23:06:37 2008. Yes, it is a free system. Except for two locations and in one the charge is for a 2 mile trip and in the other the same charge is for a much less valuable 1000 foot trip. |
|
|
| (579245) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 2 03:05:37 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 23:13:25 2008. Nut [sic] unlike all the other lines, the E and J DOES connect to the Airtrain, just like the A does, and unlike all the other lines.The E and J connect to the AirTrain Jamaica branch which travels far outside Airport property and therefore constitutes a rapid transit service to the Airport. In the case of Howard Beach, the A train is the rapid transit service to the airport. As I've stated many times now, there is nothing unfair about charging extra for the Jamaica branch, E and J passengers could transfer to the A if they wish to avoid that extra charge. Do you consider it unfair that passengers at Woodside have to pay more to take the LIRR than the subway to Penn Station? How is this any different. The LIRR is a PREMIUM service just like the AirTrain Jamaica branch. |
|
|
| (579246) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 2 03:09:08 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by SMAZ on Sat Mar 1 04:32:32 2008. No, it doesn't matter what activities people were undertaking on the other side of that fence before AirTrain was built.Besides, a toll doesn't mean that there even had to have been any kind of access there before. |
|
|
| (579247) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 2 03:11:38 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 1 09:02:44 2008. No, I coined it to try and make Airtrain's toll/fee structure seem as ludicrous as it really is. |
|
|
| (579264) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 2 04:20:55 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 2 03:09:08 2008. Besides, a toll doesn't mean that there even had to have been any kind of access there before.Precisely. Therefore the only reason it is imposed now is because there are people willing to pay for a service in that location that didn't exist there before. That service is access to a certain train. The most common term for a train-access fee is "fare". "Fare" enough? ;-> |
|
|
| (579284) | |
Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Sun Mar 2 08:10:03 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 2 03:09:08 2008. Besides, a toll doesn't mean that there even had to have been any kind of access there before.Here's my favorite example of an unfair toll. Back in the 1950s or whenever there was no canal connecting Lakes Erie and Ontario. The they go and build the Welland Canal through what was plain old dirt, put a bridge over it, and CHARGE A TOLL FOR THE BRIDGE. So then you are being charged a toll for crossing what was dry land before humans interfered. |
|
|
| (579286) | |
Re: Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 08:15:21 2008, in response to Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Sun Mar 2 08:10:03 2008. That's not an unfair toll. |
|
|
| (579287) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 08:16:43 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 2 03:11:38 2008. But it's only ludicrous to some in opinion. That's not fact. I don't find it ludicrous at all. |
|
|
| (579289) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 08:19:55 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 2 03:05:37 2008. No of course I don't think that the LIRR should be the same price. But AirTrain IS a premium service over the buses and the situation that was there before. Your analogy doesn't work against AirTrain, as some use the fact that it was once free for the shuttle or that it's free to take the Q10 or other buses from the subway and now theirs a much better mode Airtrain. Airtrain is the permium service over the other methods, and you pay $5 for it.The AirTrain from Jamaica is a longer distance, but it's no more premium than the AirTrain in Howard Beach, regardless of the different location it comes from. |
|
|
| (579290) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 08:20:46 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 2 02:59:01 2008. That is correct except for "less valuable" to describe HB. Both branches are quite valuable. |
|
|
| (579291) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 08:23:02 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 2 02:56:17 2008. Irrelevant. Airport circulators needn't be free.I am not the one who said that. Terripin uses that in every AirTrain thread ever made. I never said it had to be free, I was responding to his notion about "no where else does this supposed injustice happen". And for the service it provides from HB, it is not inequitable, and certainly not "highly so". That is a matter of opinion. Many find it highly useful, and worth every penny. |
|
|
| (579293) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 08:27:06 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Mar 2 02:52:15 2008. They built the circulator with the parking lot station outside the loop as it made more sense to do that. They decided to put the LT parkinglot station on the Howard Beach branch, because it made sense to do so.To avoid a semantics problem that some here find an injustice, they could have not had the "free" station on the same branch as the HB leg of AirTrain. That would have avoided the semantics problem of some paying, and some riding "free" on the same branch. But doing so would have makde the loop longer (as it would have had to loop to the LT parking lot instead of only to Federal Circle and more expensive to build. So they built it with the one station outside the loop instead, along one of the branches. That causes a semantics problem to some people that find an injustice, but it's much more ifficient operational because of it. |
|
|
| (579294) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 08:28:25 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 00:13:27 2008. Right, I know what you are saying, but that is a matter of OPINION, not fact. |
|
|
| (579296) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 08:29:31 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 00:12:23 2008. No, I said that was PERHAPS one of the reasons (this dates back to Charles G's post). There are other reasons why they charge a fare there, and I already mentioned and discussed them at nauseum in this thread already. |
|
|
| (579297) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 08:31:57 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 00:11:18 2008. There are no "facts" that it should be free, even Pig said somewhere that a circulator need not be free. And that's even if you consider the whole system a circulator which one does NOT have to do. You consider the whole system a cieculator, and YOU believe it should be free because of it. I do not consider either branch 'a circulator", and even if I did, that still wouldn't mean they couldn't charge for certain parts of it if they feel the need. Nothing "immoral", "bad" or "wrong" about that. |
|
|
| (579300) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 08:36:11 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 00:09:15 2008. I am not grasping at straws at all, that statement was to explain how it was designed, and to avoid a "supposed semantics problem" that you feel there is, I am explaining that it didn't need to be built like that, but of course it makes more sense that it was.You only would like for it to be "grasping at straws". It makes no difference if the "parking lot people board there". It makes sense in design that they do. And no one gives a crap if "it's done no where else in the country", every system is different. And even Pigs said that even if one would consider it a circulator, all "circulators need not be free", and that's only if it needs to be considered a "circulator", which I don't consider it's branches (and it's irrelevant if they designed a parking lot station along one of the branches, as it made sense to do it that way. There is nothing abnormal and contrary to what makes sense except in your mind. No one grasping at straws here except you trying to make your opinions of injustice a fact. |
|
|
| (579317) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 09:27:03 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 08:23:02 2008. where are these many people, and how do you know what they think? just because they pay the $5 doesn't mean they find it worth ever penny... |
|
|
| (579319) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 09:27:50 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 08:20:46 2008. No, it is the trip you are paying for. One is much more valuable than the other. |
|
|
| (579321) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 09:29:28 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 08:19:55 2008. yes it is more premium. it takes you a long distance to airport property, while the HB branch is ALREADY ON THE PROPERTY! |
|
|
| (579322) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 09:30:38 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by SMAZ on Sun Mar 2 04:20:55 2008. it's not a fare. it's a pedestrian toll to enter the airport grounds where the free circulator can be boarded. |
|
|
| (579323) | |
Re: Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 09:31:21 2008, in response to Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Sun Mar 2 08:10:03 2008. yeah, that's stupid |
|
|
| (579354) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Mar 2 10:28:12 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 08:31:57 2008. I love it that this thread is still going. |
|
|
| (579398) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 11:10:38 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 09:27:03 2008. In the same token (so to speak) where are all these people that are upset with this? It works both ways. |
|
|
| (579407) | |
Canal Bridges Re: Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 11:35:11 2008, in response to Re: Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 09:31:21 2008. Why is that stupid? If the canal is a necessary thing that was added, and that makes a body of water that may have not been there, but if a bridge must be built over it, why is that a problem when there is a toll? What difference does it make if it's a natural river or a canal? |
|
|
| (579413) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 11:41:21 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 09:30:38 2008. No, it's not. It is a fare or fee, to use AirTrain from that station. It is NOT a free "circulator". |
|
|
| (579415) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 11:43:46 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 09:29:28 2008. Doesn't matter, AirTrain is not a distance based system. It's irrelevant if it takes you from a couple miles or a few miles, either way you need something to take you to the terminals. It's not feasible to walk from HB, AirTrain is needed. |
|
|
| (579425) | |
Re: Canal Bridges Re: Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 12:27:39 2008, in response to Canal Bridges Re: Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 11:35:11 2008. If the people want to build a canal, then fine, build one, but there's no justification for then charging to drive over the canal!!!! |
|
|
| (579427) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Mar 2 12:30:41 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 11:41:21 2008. "It is NOT a free "circulator"."If I put a piece of rebar across the tracks then it definitely would not be able to frely circulate. :0) |
|
|
| (579432) | |
Re: Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Mar 2 12:43:54 2008, in response to Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Sun Mar 2 08:10:03 2008. The they go and build the Welland Canal through what was plain old dirt, put a bridge over it, and CHARGE A TOLL FOR THE BRIDGE.That's just silly. If they had to fund the bridge by tolls, the toll should be on passing under it, rather than over it. |
|
|
| (579437) | |
Re: Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 12:49:08 2008, in response to Re: Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Mar 2 12:43:54 2008. I agree. |
|
|
| (579457) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sun Mar 2 13:43:24 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Mar 1 07:51:47 2008. Good post. |
|
|
| (579468) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 14:04:28 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sun Mar 2 13:43:24 2008. No, it's not a good post, unless you enjoy paying $5 to walk across an imaginary line to enter airport grounds to board the free circulator. Do you? |
|
|
| (579473) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sun Mar 2 14:17:43 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 14:04:28 2008. No, it's not a good post, unless you enjoy paying $5 to walk across an imaginary line to enter airport grounds to board the free circulator. Do you?If there was a fence on that so-called "imaginary line" then it isn't an imaginary line and the 5 dollars to ride the Airtrain is much cheaper than airfares or even long term parking at the airport. |
|
|
| (579474) | |
Re: Canal Bridges Re: Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by BMTLines on Sun Mar 2 14:23:24 2008, in response to Canal Bridges Re: Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 11:35:11 2008. It makes a big difference because the people served by the canal are not the same ones served by the bridge. The local population would be perfectly happy WITHOUT a canal - the canal serves the faraway ports that receive or ship the goods going through the canal. Not only is the local population being made to suffer by the division of their community caused by the existence of the canal but then they are asked to pay for the priviledge of re-connecting the two halves via a bridge. The canal owners/operators should pay for any bridges that need to be built in order to restore the status quo ante to communities they disrupt. |
|
|
| (579536) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 17:16:16 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sun Mar 2 14:17:43 2008. If there was a fence on that so-called "imaginary line" then it isn't an imaginary lineThere wasn't a fence UNTIL they built AirTrain. and the 5 dollars to ride the Airtrain is much cheaper than airfares or even long term parking at the airport. That's $5 per person. |
|
|
| (579538) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 17:16:48 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sun Mar 2 14:17:43 2008. and the 5 dollars to ride the Airtrain is much cheaper than airfares or even long term parking at the airport.And how does the fact that it is cheaper make it RIGHT? |
|
|
| (579542) | |
Re: Canal Bridges Re: Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 17:29:44 2008, in response to Re: Canal Bridges Re: Unfair Tolls: Re: Air Train question, posted by BMTLines on Sun Mar 2 14:23:24 2008. Exactly! It makes complete sense. |
|
|
| (579565) | |
Re: Air Train question |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Mar 2 18:36:08 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Mar 2 09:27:50 2008. 08:20:46 2008.No, it is the trip you are paying for. One is much more valuable than the other. Sure, but that could be said of any flat fee based system. Take the subway for example. For $2 (using base fare) you can travel between Jamaica-Van Wyck and Jamaica Center for $2, or you can travel between Jamaica Center and Broad St for $2. Both cost $2, and one trip is more valuable than the other, yet both cost the same |
|
|
|
Page 16 of 29 |
||
