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| Re: Air Train question (567079) | |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 11:08:15 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 29 10:32:50 2008. Your "5 or 6" figure is only people who have responded in this thread. And even less have responded supporting your point.There were at the beginning, they gave up trying to debate against you on this topic long ago. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 11:11:10 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 10:45:22 2008. False. New issues were presented in this thread by people on BOTH sides.Yeah, a week ago. The circles spun around countless times since then. Although I don't know what was new on the opposition side, all I keep hearing is "toll". Maybe that's why you're continuing to participate in this thread, but not me. OBVIOUSLY, that was an expression. I find the notion of the opposition that AirTrain isn't worth it ludicrous. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 11:11:46 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 10:48:03 2008. It's redundant and gets no where to repeat what I and others have already said in this tread over and over. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:15:51 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 11:08:15 2008. Yes they gave up because they decided not to rehash the same points over and over again and were unable to provide competent rebuttals. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 11:16:13 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:08:06 2008. And yet you see no problem posting your idea that there are only 5 or 6 of us who are opposed to the fee.Show me one article somewhere outside of SubChat that there is some sort of conspiracy or wrong doing here. One, just one. You can find plenty that find it a great addition to the transportation network. Great connection or not does not justify the $5 fee when most of the rest of the AirTrain system does not charge any fee. Jamaica. Farther yes, the same sort of connection as the A. Yes. A good choice of either in midtown? Both. Why are subway passengers singled out for subsidizing the system? The E, J, and A riders, (last I checked the E and J were also subway lines) are treated equally, as it should be. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:17:07 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 11:07:14 2008. And we've already explained that that connection doesn't cost $5. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 11:18:31 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:08:06 2008. False. They are able to operate the rest of the system without getting any revenue directly from the passengers. This branch is no different. It costs only slightly more to operate than a branch ending at Lefferts Blvd.If the opposition wants to use the "free circulator" card, then it musy also be acknowledged that there is no way they would have built the Howard beach station in the location it is in for just the circulator, especially when a second station isn't even needed for the lot. If that were done it would be equally bad policy. It would have been silly not to connect with HB, yes, but that connection is not "because it's a circulator". |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 29 11:19:28 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 10:48:29 2008. you know what i mean: on-property circulator |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 29 11:21:22 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Fri Feb 29 10:59:27 2008. But why are they wrong? Just the same as you respond that the Howard Beach Branch of Airtrain isn't vital or necessary, they aregue the same as to all rail service.People could reasonably walk through a portion of the parking lot to get to an airtrain station... You can't walk from most commuter rail stations to your destination. They tell me that you're wrong because people could still get to their jobs. How? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:24:07 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 07:50:40 2008. False. I accept your responses and I have provided rebuttals to them. You have not provided rebuttals to my most recent responses. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:25:18 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 09:51:52 2008. Yes, and we have responded as to why you are mistaken. You have not responded to those points, you simply repeat the same mistaken points. If our newest points are mistaken, then please show us why. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 29 11:25:25 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 11:07:14 2008. Many of the people who use the HB station do not pay a fare. Why not? If they are benefiting from the further out station, why don't they have to pay too? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:26:34 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 29 10:18:24 2008. I feel that way as well. As the record shows, I have changed my mind on a number of occasions when presented with valid reasons that showed why I was previously wrong. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 29 11:26:49 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 11:16:13 2008. the same sort of connection as the A.Nope. The A is on the border of airport property, and people walk across the border to get AirTrain. Jamaica is no where near the airport property and people take a long ride on AirTrain to even get to the airport border. They are not the same at all. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Feb 29 11:27:14 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 29 11:21:22 2008. The blowhards say they'd take non-rail forms of transportation. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Feb 29 11:28:40 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 29 11:21:22 2008. People could reasonably walk through a portion of the parking lot to get to an airtrain station...And if the PA put up a fence and gate system to screen who paid for parking and charged those that didn't, what would you think? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:29:42 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 09:59:49 2008. Oh please. $5 is not going to stop anyone that doesn't want to take a car.That is false. Even if the car remains more convenient, the cost of that added convenience may be less than or equal to the AirTrain fare/fee for some people. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Feb 29 11:30:58 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 29 11:25:25 2008. Didn't Clayton answer this one, already, probably among others? Long-term parking isn't cheap. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:42:44 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Fri Feb 29 10:17:29 2008. Plenty of blowhards consider those railroads to be not vital and not necessary. You will argue with them how?By giving them valid reasons why they are wrong. There is no one like that here so there is no point preaching to the choir. Fact is: very little in life is actually vital or necessary. Nutrients, shelter, healthcare, a certain amount of contact with other humans, etc. You really don't want to start down that road, or we're back envying the lives of our non-Homo sapiens ancestors. I have no problem starting down that road; and here I go: The population of the Earth is currently possible solely because of industrial development. Assuming for some reason the industrial system collapses and we revert to a hunter-gatherer society, billions of people would die within a short period of time, such a society is not capable of supporting the population which currently inhabits the world. Given that, we can argue that there are services essential towards allowing industrial society to continue and they are vital to all the people who would die in the absence of industrialization. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:52:57 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 29 10:29:52 2008. The Port Authority is within its rights to disagree;Certainly. customers who pay $5 to usae [sic] Howard Beach's AirTrain branch will obviously disagree with you as well. Not necessarily. People may still do things despite the fact that the manner of doing it is suboptimal. They may consider the fee unfair but would still pay it because it is the most practical alternative for them. They can't jump the faregate if they disagree with the fee and wish to remain free law-abiding citizens. If I found the AirTrain to be the best alternative for me I would pay the fee even though I may disagree with its application. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Feb 29 11:54:59 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:42:44 2008. There is no one like that here so there is no point preaching to the choir.Not quite true. Didn't our Terrapin Station claim that the Howard Beach Branch of Airtrain is not vital or necessary, while the NJT, LIRR, NYCT, etc. systems are (in their entirety, presumably)? Given that, we can argue that there are services essential towards allowing industrial society to continue and they are vital to all the people who would die in the absence of industrialization. OK, so we just rid of passenger rail as the blowhards suggest. The world doesn't thereby end. I'm not commending THAT idea, mind you, but I haven't seen Terrapin Station identify his criteria for thinking some services necessary and others not. You want to trot some term out, ok, but then tell us what it is. The world wouldn't end if tomorrow, service to the Rockaways were entirely abandoned, along with Airtrain. The lives of commuters would become more difficult, but not impossible. That's one of the reasons to support commuter rail and rapid transit services; not necessity, but progressive convenience. I bring up the blowhard's response because I don't believe that Terrapin Station talk of vital and necessary passenger rail is sustainable on even cursory examination. |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 29 12:02:19 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:52:57 2008. They may consider the fee unfair but would still pay it because it is the most practical alternative for them.That's for sure. I consider the MNRR AM reverse peak fare to be highly unfair and yet I paid it (i.e., bought a monthly when 10-trip off peaks would have been cheaper but were no longer accepted) for about 2 years. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 12:02:28 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 11:11:10 2008. Yeah, a week ago.False. I have presented new information since then. If you are not paying attention that is not my fault. I find the notion of the opposition that AirTrain isn't worth it ludicrous. I am using the term "worth it" here to describe the costs, not your perceived value, which would be different for different people. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 12:33:07 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:15:51 2008. And that's not what you guys are doing too? |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 29 12:35:53 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:52:57 2008. OK, fair enough. But it doesn't bother them enough so as to try to get around it in droves. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 12:36:20 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:26:34 2008. Nothing you have provided is anything different than has been presented before. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 12:37:37 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 29 11:26:49 2008. Jamaica is no where near the airport property and people take a long ride on AirTrain to even get to the airport border. They are not the same at all.It's not any "longer" than HB. Both rides take about 10 minutes, regardless of the LENGTH. One is not "longer", both are about the same time within about a minute or two. |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 29 12:37:47 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:42:44 2008. Agreed! |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 12:40:04 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:52:57 2008. That's fair enough, and I can agree to that, but that doesn't change the fact that I don't believe it's some "conspiracy" or "immoral" or "bad policy", or whatever other description has been used here before to charge a FARE (let's use the proper words) for AirTrain. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 12:42:05 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 12:02:28 2008. False. I have presented new information since then. If you are not paying attention that is not my fault.What new information? I can't respond to this supposed new information (as requested), if I don't know what this "new information" that has not been presented before is. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 12:50:32 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 11:11:10 2008. Yeah, a week ago.False. I have presented new information since then. If you are not paying attention that is not my fault. I find the notion of the opposition that AirTrain isn't worth it ludicrous. I am using the term "worth it" here to describe the costs, not your perceived value, which would be different for different people. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 12:51:57 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 12:42:05 2008. Go back a few posts to when I first admonished you for repeating yourself. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 12:53:25 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 11:11:46 2008. Then why are you doing it? You are the one who is repeating yourself over and over again. When Terrapin and I are repeating ourselves it is ONLY in response to your repetition which does need to be addressed. |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 29 12:59:59 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 11:52:57 2008. They may consider the fee unfair but would still pay it because it is the most practical alternative for them.That's for sure. I consider the MNRR AM reverse peak fare to be highly unfair and yet I paid it (i.e., bought a monthly when 10-trip off peaks would have been cheaper but were no longer accepted) for about 2 years. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 13:01:30 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 11:16:13 2008. Show me one article somewhere outside of SubChat that there is some sort of conspiracy or wrong doing here. One, just one.Did you not read my next sentence? I will use this post of yours as evidence that you are ignoring our points, dismissing them out of hand and then repeating the same thing over and over again. Jamaica. Farther yes, the same sort of connection as the A. Yes. False. It is not the same sort of connection and in the posts which you have ignored we have demonstrated this to be the case. Unless of course you wish to define which "sort" of connection these are. The E, J, and A riders, (last I checked the E and J were also subway lines) are treated equally, as it should be. No, it should not be. By your argument, B, C, D, F, G, L, M, N, Q, R, V, W, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and Rockaway, Franklin Avenue and 42nd Street Shuttle passengers are treated inequitably because they don't have an equal connection to the AirTrain. Why not build AirTrain out to connect to all of them? Because that would be silly. Every subway line does not exist to serve every set of points; that's why we have a network of them and transfers between lines. People on all of those lines I've just listed, including the E, J and Z but except the R have a transfer to the A at some point. If they don't want to pay the fare at Jamaica and there were no fee at Howard Beach then they could transfer to the A. I have made this point before but of course you have ignored it. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 13:56:16 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 12:37:37 2008. It's not any "longer" than HB. Both rides take about 10 minutesProff? regardless of the LENGTH. It is that LENGTH that increases the cost of building and operating a line, not the time it takes to traverse. And not only is the Jamaica segement longer, I am certain that it cost more to build, considering the manner in which it had to be built. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 14:01:47 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 11:18:31 2008. If the opposition wants to use the "free circulator" card, then it musy also be acknowledged that there is no way they would have built the Howard beach station in the location it is in for just the circulator, especially when a second station isn't even needed for the lot.That needn't be acknowledged as it's not given. The Port Authority had no problem building the AirTrain out to the lot to begin with despite the fact that they knew they wouldn't collect a fare, so there's no reason to assume they would not have built it the short distance to the Howard Beach station had they been unable to collect a fee there. The cost of building the line out to the parking lot far exceeded the cost of building it a little further out to the HB station. It would have been silly not to connect with HB, yes, but that connection is not "because it's a circulator". I don't use "because it's a circulator" as one of my arguments. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 14:03:20 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Fri Feb 29 11:30:58 2008. Long-term parking isn't cheap.And I have answered that as well. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 14:08:15 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Fri Feb 29 11:54:59 2008. Not quite true. Didn't our Terrapin Station claim that the Howard Beach Branch of Airtrain is not vital or necessaryI can disagree with that. OK, so we just rid of passenger rail as the blowhards suggest. The world doesn't thereby end. Of course, but by establishing that industrial society is necessary we can argue the necessity of certain aspects of it. I just don't see what we would gain with an academic exercise like trying to show that passenger rail is necessary. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 14:22:35 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 29 12:35:53 2008. It doesn't bother me enough to try to get around it and I'm here arguing against it! |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 14:27:03 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 12:40:04 2008. A fare is not the proper word. If you think the term toll implies a particular view with which you disagree, you can use fee, as both tolls and fares are fees.When entering a subway station EVERYONE has to pay a fare except scofflaws and people who have been granted leave to enter without a fare. In the case of Howard Beach AirTrain that is not the case. And no I do not consider it a conspiracy and I'm not sure if I'd consider it immoral but I certainly consider it bad policy! |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 14:33:44 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 12:33:07 2008. No. I will provide a competent rebuttal once there is new material for me to rebut. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 14:34:07 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 12:36:20 2008. False. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 29 14:51:30 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Fri Feb 29 11:54:59 2008. Didn't our Terrapin Station claim that the Howard Beach Branch of Airtrain is not vital or necessaryNo, the airtrain station at HB is not vital or necessary. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 16:16:14 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 12:51:57 2008. This?The distance between HB and Lefferts does not justify a $5 fare given that the fare for riding the much longer distance from Lefferts to Federal Circle and beyond to the terminals is nothing. That's nothing new, we talked about that a lot of times already. It doesn't matter. The subway is the same price if you ride from 42nd st to 34th St or if you ride all the way to Far Rockaway. Fares can, although don't have to be distance based. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 16:18:38 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 12:53:25 2008. Did you not read my next sentence? I will use this post of yours as evidence that you are ignoring our points, dismissing them out of hand and then repeating the same thing over and over again.Anytime anyone says anything about the airtrain situation, the same exact broken record response comes up: "toll", "unfair", "bad policy". "circulator", etc. I don't agree with any of those statements. I am responding to those posts, and in turn you/terrapin respond to that, and the circle continues. |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 29 16:27:16 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 14:22:35 2008. That's true. On the other hand it's pretty safe to assume many people do not disaghree with the fare. How many? Dunno. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 16:32:45 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 13:01:30 2008. Did you not read my next sentence? I will use this post of yours as evidence that you are ignoring our points, dismissing them out of hand and then repeating the same thing over and over again.Okay then: Doesn't mean that one was never published. I'm sure there was. But I won't look it up because the popularity of an idea does not establish whether that idea be valid. Yes, I have read that whole sentence. Just because YOU believe there is a problem doesn't mean there is a problem. I have never seen anywhere one article, nada, zilch, nothing, that even hints at this problem. No, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but just because there "could" be an article out there somewhere, doesn't mean there is the big problem that is always said to be about this $5 thing. Just because "you and some others" feel you are correct doesn't mean you are correct any more than I and others on the other side are correct. The AirTrain basher people however feel their points are more valid or more correct than the opposition. You say there is a problem, I say there isn't. You are not more correct than I am just because you feel it's a "pedestrian toll". False. It is not the same sort of connection and in the posts which you have ignored we have demonstrated this to be the case. Unless of course you wish to define which "sort" of connection these are. I have explained more times than I care to thinkk about about this. YES Jamaica is longer. But it IS a same kind of connection. In both connections, it will bring you to the terminals, in about the same time. One travels further. Just because one is at the edge of the airport, and just because one just happens to also pick up parking lot people in addition to people coming from the subway doesn't mean it's a different type of connection. If the PA decided to make a parkinglot somewhere along the Jamaica line, with a station added to service that, where people boarded for free, it would be no different either. Both connect to the subway (and one to the LIRR too), and both bring you to the airport efficiently in 10 minutes (or so). No, it should not be. By your argument, B, C, D, F, G, L, M, N, Q, R, V, W, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and Rockaway, Franklin Avenue and 42nd Street Shuttle passengers are treated inequitably because they don't have an equal connection to the AirTrain. Why not build AirTrain out to connect to all of them? No, not at all. The lines that currently connect to AirTrain should be treated equally, that is not to say that every line NEEDS to connect to airtrain, just because some subway lines do. If however a third leg was to one day connect to another subway line (let's say the 3 for arguments sake), that connection should also be $5, no more, no less than the other connections if it did). Length of the route doesn't matter. You can travel from 207th St on the A to Chambers St for the same price as someone that only travels from Broadway-Nassau to Chambers St. I have made this point before but of course you have ignored it. No I haven't ignored it. Just because I don't agree with your assesment doesn't mean I "ignored it". I don't find it to be a valid argument supporting this idea of AirTrain. You may, I don't. Doesn't mean it has been ignored. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 16:35:53 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 13:56:16 2008. Proff? The AirTrain website. I have checked it out when I last used it. The Jamaica leg is about 9-10 minutes, and the Howard Beach branch said it is 8-9 minutes. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 29 16:38:33 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 29 13:56:16 2008. It is that LENGTH that increases the cost of building and operating a line, not the time it takes to traverse. And not only is the Jamaica segement longer, I am certain that it cost more to build, considering the manner in which it had to be built. Yes, but that's true of any line. The 6th Ave express was perhaps the most expensive to build in the system up until that time, yet it doesn't cost more to ride a B than it does to ride an F. Yes, the Jamaica line probably cost more to build, yet most systems don't charge more (i9f they are flat fee based) to travel the further distance (which of course would have cost more to build). Some do of course, but not all. |
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