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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 18:55:13 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 18:48:31 2008. They are the same station. They are so close together that the costs involved in transporting people the additional time and distance beyond Lefferts Blvd to Howard Beach are insignificant. This can also be seen relative to the length of the line, and the fact that there are no more stops on the line until it hits the trunk line. This distinction is important when you think about why some people are being charged and others aren't. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 18:55:22 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 18:39:33 2008. The Howard Beach Branch is not used ONLY as a circulator. Doesn't JFK Airtrain's website state that?According to your argument, the Jamaica Branch should be free too at all stations, because I can alight at Federal Circle. You prove too much.... |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Clayton on Mon Feb 25 18:56:21 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 18:39:33 2008. I think I see what you're getting at. You're saying that it is shitty that subway riders essentially get penalized (or charged a fare...) for taking the subway to the airport, while those who drive to the airport and do long term parking don't get charged a fare.Long term parkers pay the PANYNJ already when they pay to park their car... |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 19:02:22 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 18:55:22 2008. The Howard Beach Branch is not used ONLY as a circulator.Yes it is only used as a circulator. It lets you off on airport property. You then walk across a bridge over an imaginary line to get off of the property and onto NYCT property. So you take the circulator to a point just short of the border, then walk over the border, and then enter NYCT property. The airtrain vehicle does not take you off the property. It is a wholly on-property free circulator. According to your argument, the Jamaica Branch should be free too at all stations, because I can alight at Federal Circle. Huh?? I don't know what you are talking about. The Jamaica branch takes you off the property. Way off the property. It takes you to a downtown that is nowhere near the property. It is a rapid transit line. There is no reason not to charge for it at Jamaica. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 19:03:09 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Clayton on Mon Feb 25 18:56:21 2008. that's only part of it. read the whole thread. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 19:04:01 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 18:55:13 2008. They are the same station.OK, let's go through this, again. Stations are extended objects that can be given spacetime coordinates over a range. The coordinates given to two stations will be different when using the same coordinate system. Unless you can offer some quite interesting claim about how exotic metaphysics has gotten on JFK Airtrain, we're talking about two different stations. They are so close together that the costs involved in transporting people the additional time and distance beyond Lefferts Blvd to Howard Beach are insignificant. 'Insignificant' is a normative concept. The time and distance you speak of is visible to the naked eye as something not infinitesimal. And if, as you say, the time and distance were in fact insignificant , then why did the PA build this second station? Your argument is question-begging. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 19:07:13 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 19:04:01 2008. 'Insignificant' is a normative concept. The time and distance you speak of is visible to the naked eye as something not infinitesimal.my g-d context dude. this is in the context of being charged to go a few feet further. in the CONTEXT, they are insignificantly different in terms of both the service provided and the costs to provide the service. then why did the PA build this second station? two reasons. it's pretty obvious. 1. it's a big parking lot 2. to have a station near the border to make it a shorter walk to the (A). |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 19:14:27 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 19:02:22 2008. You then walk across a bridge over an imaginary line to get off of the property and onto NYCT property.If the 'Airtrain vehicle' took you 12" over this imaginary line, you would have no problem paying the fare? And isn't the Airtrain system, by your argument, putting you off airport property? Hint: you have to concede this point unless all of the world is Airtrain property, which it isn't. What's so special about the vehicle taking you there rather than a few footsteps? The Airtrain terminal at Jamaica is also seemingly Airtrain property, where you cross imaginary lines on to other property. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 19:19:51 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 19:14:27 2008. If the 'Airtrain vehicle' took you 12" over this imaginary line, you would have no problem paying the fare?No, because there is no need for it to go over the line. The (A) station is on the border. And isn't the Airtrain system, by your argument, putting you off airport property? No. There is no need for any help being put over the border. Before AirTrain was build, the (A) station had an exit directly into the parking lot. There was no charge from the PANYNJ to use this exit right into the parking lot. And why should there be? What airport charges just to enter the property by your own means? Hint: you have to concede this point unless all of the world is Airtrain property, which it isn't. No I don't. See above. What's so special about the vehicle taking you there rather than a few footsteps? See above. The Airtrain terminal at Jamaica is also seemingly Airtrain property, where you cross imaginary lines on to other property. Why are you being so dense? I would next expect this kind of ridiculousness from you. You know full well what I mean. At least I hope you do. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 19:21:03 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 19:07:13 2008. two reasons. it's pretty obvious.1. it's a big parking lot 2. to have a station near the border to make it a shorter walk to the (A). If 'it's a big parking lot', then how are the distances simultaneously 'insignificant'? And if there were a station even further out, perhaps that would be the one charging the access fee, and maybe not Howard Beach. But there isn't any such station. So the PA does what they do. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 19:27:23 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 19:21:03 2008. If 'it's a big parking lot', then how are the distances simultaneously 'insignificant'?I explained how. And if there were a station even further out, perhaps that would be the one charging the access fee, and maybe not Howard Beach. But there isn't any such station. So the PA does what they do. There wouldn't be one further out. NYCT has a station RIGHT ON THE BORDER OF THE AIRPORT. Do you understand how awesome and convenient that is? Do you understand that the PANYNJ wants people to use their airport? Do you understand that the PANYNJ wants people to take AirTrain over taking a taxi that just adds congestion to the terminal roadways? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Clayton on Mon Feb 25 19:32:18 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 19:03:09 2008. Well, I think that you talking about imaginary property lines and making unclear arguments is not furthering your cause. What I stated is a much more clear and concise argument and it makes sense without getting all legalese and snotty. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Mon Feb 25 19:39:14 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 18:09:14 2008. My guess is because PANYNJ wanted to collect additional revenue.OK. My guesses are that the PA wouldn't have build the station adjacent to the subway if they couldn't collect additional revenue and that HB residents wouldn't want a free entry to the airport in their neighborhood. It makes no sense, is wrong, and is bad transportation policy. "No sense" and "Wrong" are opinion/judgments. They are easier (but by no means absolute) to arrive at if one accepts your contention that the only reason for the charge is extra revenue. Even "bad transportation policy" is predicated on your assumption of greed. If one accepts the other arguments put forth -- that the AirTrain would not have been built to connect with HB station unless an additional charge could be collected -- it would seem to be a case of very good transportation policy. As respects your comments about the HB and Lefferts stations being basically the same, I think this exceptionally weak. The stations are 3/10 of a mile apart by rail, but easily 1/2 mile apart by land. Without someone going back and documenting the "why" part of the question, all anyone here is doing at this point is force-feeding the same opinions down the masochists who are actually reading this thread. So the real questin becomes -- Will anyone (present company included) be willing to actually say, "I've got my opinion and you've got yours. Until we get some facts, nothing is going to change"? |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Mon Feb 25 19:52:05 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 19:27:23 2008. Do you understand that the PANYNJ wants people to use their airport?I'm starting to wonder whether you understand these things. Yes. PANYNJ wants people to use their airport. Yet they still put this charge in place. Why do you suppose they would do that? Your "greed" explanation doesn't support this. Do you understand that the PANYNJ wants people to take AirTrain over taking a taxi that just adds congestion to the terminal roadways? Do you think that people who are concerned about a $5 charge to ride the AirTrain are really going to choose a taxi as the alternative? And what's with all the discussion of "congested terminal roadways", anyway? I regularly (about 12-15x per year) drive to JFK and park in the terminal parking lots, yet I haven't experienced any kind of traffic situation at JFK since 2002. (Granted, I avoid the place on Friday and Sunday evenings whenever possible -- though I'll be flying out of JFK this coming Sunday evening). |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 19:54:23 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 19:19:51 2008. No, because there is no need for it to go over the line. The (A) station is on the border.But let's say that the PA wants to do this. Then the 'Airtrain vehicle' does in fact cross the 'imaginary line'. So why should they charge you or not? Before AirTrain was build, the (A) station had an exit directly into the parking lot. There was no charge from the PANYNJ to use this exit right into the parking lot. And why should there be? Because time working as it does, moving only forward at a pretty constant rate, why would they charge an Airtrain access fee BEFORE there was Airtrain? Howard Beach is just about off airport property, as you've noted yourself. They charge the access fee because otherwise they lose money compared to the current state of affairs and wouldn't have built the Howard Beach station in the first place, or because the neighborhood doesn't like this free arrangement at Howard Beach bringing people who can't afford access fees, or to make the fare equal for people boarding from NYCT or LIRR trains at Jamaica the same as people boarding from NYCT trains at Howard Beach, or maybe some combination of these. I think you have to try to engage with reasons for the fee at Howard Beach. Then if your goal is to undermine that, you can argue why the reasons that could be given are bad ones. But you can't put the cart before the horse. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 20:37:30 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 19:27:23 2008. There wouldn't be one further out. NYCT has a station RIGHT ON THE BORDER OF THE AIRPORT. Do you understand how awesome and convenient that is? Do you understand that the PANYNJ wants people to use their airport? Do you understand that the PANYNJ wants people to take AirTrain over taking a taxi that just adds congestion to the terminal roadways?And yet, the PA persists in charging the access fee.... And yet, people still ride Airtrain.... |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 25 20:48:18 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Charles G on Mon Feb 25 19:39:14 2008. OK. My guesses are that the PA wouldn't have build the station adjacent to the subway if they couldn't collect additional revenueEXACTLY!! There would have been no reason for them to even go through the expense of building that station at the HB transit staion, and the rest of the airtrain line after the Long Term Parking lot stataion if not for the fact that they would be getting revenue from building that station (which is all but useless for the parking lot). Even "bad transportation policy" is predicated on your assumption of greed. If one accepts the other arguments put forth -- that the AirTrain would not have been built to connect with HB station unless an additional charge could be collected -- it would seem to be a case of very good transportation policy. RIght! It wouldn't have made much sense to be so close, yet not have access from the A's station. However, for an UNNECESSARY station for the parking lot, the HB station was ONLY built and that last stretch built because of the NYCT station, not because they needed yet another parking station for their "circulator". So the real questin becomes -- Will anyone (present company included) be willing to actually say, "I've got my opinion and you've got yours. Until we get some facts, nothing is going to change"? I have said that countless times in more AirTrain threads than I care to remember. I said it even in this thread somewhere that my mind on this is not going to change, and of course we all know the other side of the fence won't change either. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 25 20:55:16 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 19:54:23 2008. Howard Beach is just about off airport property, as you've noted yourself. They charge the access fee because otherwise they lose money compared to the current state of affairs and wouldn't have built the Howard Beach station in the first place, or because the neighborhood doesn't like this free arrangement at Howard Beach bringing people who can't afford access fees, or to make the fare equal for people boarding from NYCT or LIRR trains at Jamaica the same as people boarding from NYCT trains at Howard Beach, or maybe some combination of these.It is a combination of all of those. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 25 20:56:49 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 20:37:30 2008. And yet, people still ride Airtrain....Right, because the "problem" isn't nearly as all consuming as about 5 or maybe 6 people at SubChat (the only people I have ever heard voice a problem with the set up) make it out to be. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Charles G on Mon Feb 25 21:00:44 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 25 20:48:18 2008. I have said that countless times in more AirTrain threads than I care to remember. I said it even in this thread somewhere that my mind on this is not going to change, and of course we all know the other side of the fence won't change either.But the SubChat Code of Moronic Conduct requires that we come back and debate each others opinions until one of us dies. Or until Ron shows up. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Feb 25 21:17:58 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 25 20:55:16 2008. That's my guess too. And if it's right, there's a fairly complicated set of motivations for the PA, which can't be explained by any one desire on its part (or even all desires on its part, if you buy into the bit about local objection). |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Feb 25 22:07:38 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Feb 25 19:19:51 2008. Before AirTrain was build, the (A) station had an exit directly into the parking lot. There was no charge from the PANYNJ to use this exit right into the parking lot. And why should there be? What airport charges just to enter the property by your own means?MTA used to charge $2 there unless you had a JFK Express ticket and you weren't allowed to go to the parking lot from there. Besides, the majority of people don't mind paying the fare now so it's kinda moot to complain about it. Parisians would never have allowed this to happen if this were in Paris. Most Parisians ignored Orlyval until they went bankrupt and was absorbed by the RATP and started selling second class RER tickets at the airport. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 15:40:28 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 18 10:48:59 2008. As a former regular rider of a privately-owned route, IDWTP in the strongest way possible. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 15:51:52 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 24 21:59:19 2008. No, this thread did not get revived. Many people continue to respond to it and it remains in the 100 most recent posted-to threads. Making it far from dead. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 15:58:03 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Feb 24 22:12:46 2008. But there IS a fare. Isn't that what all of the fuss is about?Yes but if there were no fare no one would be a farebeater. You're confusing how things are with what how you think things ought to be. You said that the fare is enforcement for farebeaters. My post was simply an extension of your faulty logic. If a fare is only an enforcement for farebeating, then eliminating a fare eliminates that enforcement, which implies that farebeating can exist in the absence of a fare. Explain that! If you want to play that game, then you have to persuasively answer to the PA and the local community why there should be no Airtrain fare for anyone boarding at Howard Beach. I don't think that either you or Terrapin Station have done that yet. Why? You're the one who seems to think that the fare only exists to prevent people from beating it. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 27 18:13:53 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 15:58:03 2008. You said that the fare is enforcement for farebeaters. My post was simply an extension of your faulty logic. If a fare is only an enforcement for farebeating, then eliminating a fare eliminates that enforcement, which implies that farebeating can exist in the absence of a fare. Explain that!He means that the fence is there so people don't try and beat the AirTrain fare. If the fence wasn't there, people would try and beat the fare by walking to the parkinglot to the AirTrain Howard Beach station from the other side (a station that of course wouldn't have been built had it not been for the connection to the NYCT station, as it's all but useless in that location for the parkinglot itself). |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 18:42:57 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Feb 24 20:36:07 2008. Actually, that's not what I meant by there being no fare to beat. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 18:46:49 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 20 12:41:01 2008. So you think that crossing the border separating the Republic of Korea from the Juche Entity otherwise known as North Korea is "not [an] insurmountable obstacle?" |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 18:49:41 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:23:41 2008. What about AirTrain effects? What do they do? Fill in the blank! |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 18:50:18 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 17 19:00:25 2008. As if you discuss transportation fare/toll policy or the AirTrain itself on a regular basis. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 19:12:37 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:00:25 2008. Saying that the parking fee covers the fare doesn't make sense. The parking fee is charged per car, not per person. A person driving to the airport alone pays the same parking fee as a family of 6. A person parking for two days will ride the AirTrain as much as a person parking for ten, although the latter pays more. The per-day parking rate is the same for both of them, there is no addition charge for the first day as opposed to all the other days which could conceivably include the AirTrain roundtrip.So your parking fee covers AirTrain fare argument is weak. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 19:17:44 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 17:12:58 2008. They wouldn't be punishing them any more than you can argue that people in Little Neck are punished by having to take the expensive LIRR vs. the cheaper subway (which they do not have). The fact that they can take the bus to the subway for the same price as someone taking the subway only only makes this an even better analogy: E and J riders can transfer to the A and go to Howard Beach if they chose to for no more than it costs them to ride to Sutphin Blvd. The only people to whom this could be "unfair" are the people who board the AirTrain at Jamaica from some other mode that's not the subway or bus: So for them they will end up having a choice between a direct, fast trip for $5* or a roundabout, slow trip for $2* which currently costs $7.* Yeah, very unfair.*Not taking the bonus into account, it is irrelevant to the argument. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 27 19:22:16 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 20:36:28 2008. Because they are outside the airport property. What's so hard to understand? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 19:26:58 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 20:28:30 2008. Yes it is free. The station has a 100% legal entrance/exit which charges no fare.Provided that the opening in the fence were still legally open, it would not be fare evasion, it would be a legal passageway to enter the parking lot and use whatever services that are available from the parking lot. Certainly very few people would be paying the "fare," but that's the point! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 19:27:42 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 27 19:22:16 2008. There is no charge to enter airport property anywhere else. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 19:29:13 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Feb 16 18:49:51 2008. False. They benefit more by collecting fares from those trains than running them empty, therefore charging a peak fare doesn't make sense. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 27 19:31:21 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 19:27:42 2008. You're entering for a specific purpose- to ride AirTrain, which has a paid fare for riders starting outside airport property. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 19:31:46 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 15 17:25:40 2008. Nobody is arguing that life is 100% fair, however there's nothing wrong with pointing out which aspects of life are fair or unfair. Either way, this argument isn't going to convince anyone who has the power to change anything. If you think that makes this argument not worth having, then you are free not to participate. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 27 19:32:19 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 27 19:22:16 2008. As Spider-Pig just wrote, there is no basis for charging to enter/exit airport property. Not at JFK, or anywhere in the country that I know of. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 27 19:34:21 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 19:29:13 2008. How do you know? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 19:34:33 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 18:00:28 2008. False. There would be nothing inequitable. The E/J riders are charged for the use of a line which cost a lot of money to build and goes a long distance from airport property. While the Howard Beach branch also cost money to build, nevertheless one can legitimately ride to this station FOR FREE without going significantly out of the way and without joyriding. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Feb 27 19:36:05 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 27 19:32:19 2008. The basis is that the PA owns it and can do as it will. This is a specific entrance for use with AirTrain. Would it matter to you if you could walk over the bridge for free, but you had to pay as you walked onto the train? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 27 19:55:03 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 19:12:37 2008. Yeah so? In order to have the parking lot and make it usable, they need some sort of way to shuttle those people to the terminals. That is AirTrain, and they have the Airtrain station (lefferts). The Howard beach station is at an extreme corner, only even built to that point because of the NYCT station. There would have been no need to build that whole connection and station if not for the NYCT station there. The parking lot certainly didn't need two stations. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 20:42:29 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 15 13:45:57 2008. (OK, Pigs, $1.66-2/3).I don't have any 2/3 of a cent coins! |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 20:45:11 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 17:25:14 2008. But he can't get a refund, so if he never rides the subway again, AirTrain cost him $5 a ride.If you buy a card for $16.67 you get exactly $20 (if you buy the card before Sunday). |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 20:49:16 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 19:07:38 2008. Why does everyone think that? |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 20:51:36 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Feb 16 20:36:30 2008. $15 was the most common purchase/refill for me when I rode regularly during the $2/20%/$76 monthly era. |
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Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 20:54:51 2008, in response to Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 15 16:13:11 2008. It does if a person will be riding at least 6 times. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Feb 27 21:09:07 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 27 15:58:03 2008. You're the one who seems to think that the fare only exists to prevent people from beating it.You're confusing the reasons for a fare with the reasons to enforce payment of the fare set. You said that the fare is enforcement for farebeaters. My post was simply an extension of your faulty logic. If a fare is only an enforcement for farebeating, then eliminating a fare eliminates that enforcement, which implies that farebeating can exist in the absence of a fare. Explain that! Explain what? As I said, there IS a fare/access charge/money you have to pay to sue the service, for a variety of reasons. There are other reasons to enforce the fare, to make sure that people can't use the service without paying the fare. In your world, there is no fare. But that's not the world that we live in, at least according to the PA. To re-iterate what I originally said: "You're confusing how things are with what how you think things ought to be. If you want to play that game, then you have to persuasively answer to the PA and the local community why there should be no Airtrain fare for anyone boarding at Howard Beach. I don't think that either you or Terrapin Station have done that yet." That's still my view. At least in THIS world, anyway. Maybe in the world where Airtrain is free, things are different; but that doesn't really interest me. |
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Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Feb 27 21:13:36 2008, in response to Re: Diagrams Re: Air Train question, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 27 18:13:53 2008. They put the cart before the horse. They think they're using a plain old-fashioned premise, but they're really talking about the premise that 'IF Airtrain had no access fee at Howard Beach....'Of course, the fact of the matter is that there IS an access fee at Howard Beach. But if they'd like to go on reasoning about the world in which there isn't an access fee, more power to them. Let's just be clear what we're talking about so that we don't talk past each other. I'm interested in the present world, and they're interested in a hypothetical world, possibly one exactly like ours except in a few respects; but that world is nonetheless not ours. |
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