Extending the SAS across 125th on the table

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Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Oct 6 07:59:34 2023 Now the MTA is looking to extend the SAS all the way across 125th Street: As I have noted before, if this were to happen, I would be looking to do it where it includes a connection to the 8th Avenue line at St. Nicholas that initially could be used for yard moves but also potentially allow for an SAS line to run via the Concourse as well (most likely using the track between the local and express tracks north of 125 to north of 135 to connect.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Chris R16/R2730* on Fri Oct 6 08:14:24 2023, in response to Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Oct 6 07:59:34 2023.* Holy shit you started your own thread instead of renaming someone else's 😲
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Train Dude* on Fri Oct 6 08:39:21 2023, in response to Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Oct 6 07:59:34 2023.* Im wondering why the entile lower half of the 2nd avenue line has been governmentally forgotten. It would serve more and for the most part, the tunnels already exist.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by jailhousedoc* on Fri Oct 6 12:08:17 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Train Dude on Fri Oct 6 08:39:21 2023.* I would say the cause is ' tunnel vision ' - they see only what they want to see. We can only hope for the best.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Catfish 44* on Fri Oct 6 12:24:14 2023, in response to Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Oct 6 07:59:34 2023.* I just want to go Across 110th Street
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Edwards!* on Fri Oct 6 13:08:31 2023, in response to Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Oct 6 07:59:34 2023.* I've also considered that as The Most needed option. Remember, the ORIGINAL SAS was supposed to assume shared operations with the Concourse Line in the Bronx, but some claiming that it would duplicate the Woodlawn line services, which is exactly what it was supposed to do, reducing the overcrowding on the Lexington line. This forced the planners to turn the route east towards Throggs Neck. However, the idea is still sound, as the SAS would be better utilized by the Eastside riders. An overlooked opportunity exists right now, that should have been addressed. The phase 4 SAS ,as well as Phase 3, would serve more riders than 1 and 2. While it is totally understandable Why the connection to 63rd st and Broadway was began first,it Was the uppitomy of silliness not to have continued the line as far north as 106th(according to the planners, this Was supposed to happen, but the MTA decided to remove the 106 station from the MOS1, just like the removal of the 10th avenue station on the new 7 line extension) Even if the Shell was built,it would have cost Less to outfit Today,then what they currently plan to do later this year,when construction starts. The aforementioned had the lines tail track and tunnels travel passed the 63rd st tunnels junction.. What Should have been addressed was a station at 57/55..42nd, and 34th. Stations In the heart of the CBD.. where other lines are for transfer capabilities, and quicker access to the Eastside jobs and homes. The 1960s version had the first phase terminate at 34th and Second for this very reason.. to connect with Grand Central the New LIRR terminal, the local subway lines, and the new crosstown People Mover subway along 48th street. The poor planning has presented itself as a nothing more than a money grab. The Other project that remains unbuilt, but makes the most sense To BUILD,is the lower portion of Phase 3 and 4, even as a temporary shuttle service with track connections to other lines. Building the line directly over the Houston st Subway as intended, the line would continue along Chrystie st,to Grand, with crossovers to give SAS and 6th avenue trains access to lower Manhattan and Brooklyn. As an interim, the 6th Ave line could travel to the 3 stations, terminating at Hanover Square or even the foot of Whitehall st, creating a transfer to the R and 1 lines, and the Staten Island ferry. The Shuttle would run from the Houston st station, to the terminal, until the 14th,23, and other sections are completed. Providing connectivity is the priority, Also, the lower East side Should be given some type of service, and the Avenue C route should be put back on the table, but as an LRT/BRT
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Mark S. Feinman* on Fri Oct 6 13:13:04 2023, in response to Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Oct 6 07:59:34 2023.* Page 122 of the study says "Second Avenue Subway West via St Nicholas Ave: In further analyzing this alternative, significant operational problems were identified, especially related to capacity on the A B C D lines. As a result, this alternative was not selected for analysis at this time." --Mark
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Fri Oct 6 13:19:05 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Oct 6 12:24:14 2023.* Real fly.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by BILLBKLYN* on Fri Oct 6 13:26:40 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 6 13:19:05 2023.* For a white guy...
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by TUNNELRAT* on Fri Oct 6 13:47:23 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Oct 6 12:24:14 2023.* good one.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Fri Oct 6 14:50:43 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Oct 6 13:13:04 2023.* At the very least,SAS across 125th should have a transfer station to the 8th Ave line, and in my view connecting tunnels. I would, however conmtinue the route west to have a terminal beneath the IRT 125th St station on Broadway. Getting to work on both the link to the Bronx and the route down to lower Manhattan should begin ASAP. The provision for the station at Houston has been there from the beginning, let's see it used! My plan for better subway access easr of 2nd is to build the 9th St stub of PATH giving us transfer stations to the B'way BMT,Astor Place IRT, a station under 2nd, and a terminal under Tompkins Sq Pk. Explicit in this is full PATH fare integration with NYCT which should happen anyway. I love streetcars,but I think Manhattan is way too dense--elevated RRs were built because the streets were clogged. That has only gotten worse. Secondarily, having yet another not compatible with existing rail services system is bad policy. New shop facilities, another batch of specialty tools, spare parts, maintenance crews trained on another technology, This is one ofthe reasons I oppose "light rail" for Triboro X.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Fri Oct 6 15:13:47 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Oct 6 08:14:24 2023.* If I did it was unintentional. I always look for threads and this was a new article (to me anyway) that I saw on a Facebook page. My apologies, it was not intentional.
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Lower portion of SAS
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Fri Oct 6 15:17:28 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Edwards! on Fri Oct 6 13:08:31 2023.* And as noted before, I would actually look to build the lower portion (Phase 4) with an extension to Brooklyn and a new Schermerhorn Street tunnel that would go under the transit museum and then come up to and use the as-present unused tracks and platforms at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and from there the (T) operates as the Fulton Local to Euclid (extended late nights to Lefferts) with the (A) and (C) both express on Fulton.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Italianstallion* on Fri Oct 6 15:37:18 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Oct 6 14:50:43 2023.* “ At the very least,SAS across 125th should have a transfer station to the 8th Ave line, and in my view connecting tunnels. I would, however conmtinue the route west to have a terminal beneath the IRT 125th St station on Broadway.” That seems in fact to be the MTA’s preferred alternative.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP* on Fri Oct 6 18:26:27 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Oct 6 08:14:24 2023.* Stop the presses!!!:)
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Fri Oct 6 21:34:24 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Oct 6 13:13:04 2023.* The main purposes of a St. Nicholas Avenue connection to the 8th Avenue Line from the SAS would be: Allowing access from the SAS to 207th and Concourse Yards. Allowing the (A) and (D) to in an emergency be able to use the SAS to get to 63rd and from there to the 6th and eventually 8th Avenue lines.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Train Dude* on Fri Oct 6 21:54:25 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Oct 6 21:34:24 2023.* The plan that I saw back in the 90s involved only the concourse line and required the expansion of Concourse Yard.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Chris R16/R2730* on Sat Oct 7 07:13:44 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Oct 6 13:13:04 2023.* The SAS should really go into the Bronx.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by jailhousedoc* on Sat Oct 7 11:52:06 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 7 07:13:44 2023.* I totally agree with you here - that would make a lot of sense, but we need to find the money for it. Across 125th and into the North Bronx near Montefiore hospital - that would make me happy. I can only hope....
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Allan* on Sat Oct 7 12:34:01 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by jailhousedoc on Sat Oct 7 11:52:06 2023.* From a logistical standpoint I think the MTA will consider the D train terminal at 205 St/Bainbridge Av as close enough to Monitfiore (Bainbridge Av between Gun Hill Rd and 210 St.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Fred G* on Sat Oct 7 13:41:37 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 7 07:13:44 2023.* Where would you send it into the Bronx? Would it be like similar to where the Third Avenue line was, maybe even build it on top of Metro North?
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th “on the table”?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sat Oct 7 14:24:20 2023, in response to Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Oct 6 07:59:34 2023.* The MTA says a crosstown subway on 125^th Street in Harlem is now on the table — if they can find the funds. … LOL "unveils plan", "on the table".
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Edwards!* on Sat Oct 7 15:11:02 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Oct 6 12:24:14 2023.* Both of us.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Italianstallion* on Sat Oct 7 15:12:57 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Fred G on Sat Oct 7 13:41:37 2023.* Yes, best plan would be elevated over MNRR.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by randyo* on Sat Oct 7 16:32:28 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Edwards! on Fri Oct 6 13:08:31 2023.* I never heard abut the SAS sharing operations with the Concourse Line. What Idid see in the original plans were plans for a new subway line along Alexander Ave in the Bx with a branch up Morris Pk Ave and another going east ( I don't recall the avenue) towards Throgs Neck. After the city took over the NYW&B as the Dyre Ave Line, plans for the Morris Pk Ave line were dropped and the SAS was to be connected to that ROW after unification, a branch to the reclaimed IRT Pelham Line which was built to BMT sized dual contract specs originally. During the 1970s before the fiscal crisis plans were changed and the Pelham Line was to be left to the IRT and instead, the Wh Pl Rd line was to be connected to the Dyre Line at E 180 St. Not only did the fiscal crisis put an end to any Bronx branches of the SAS but it also stopped any further construction of the SAS in Manhattan. If at all possible, instead of crossing 125 St, the SAS should be extended into the Bronx and connected to one of the IRT branches that can accommodate the equipment to accomplish its original purpose of alleviating crowding on the Lex Ave IRT.Although it’s no longer possible to use the original algnmentt to connect to the Dyre Line it can still be accomplished a different way although at th moment, Im; not sure exactly what that can be but I’ll work on it.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by AlM* on Sat Oct 7 16:37:52 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by randyo on Sat Oct 7 16:32:28 2023.* to accomplish its original purpose of alleviating crowding on the Lex Ave IRT It's already doing that to some degree. It will do it to a much greater degree once it's extended to 125th/Lex.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Chris R16/R2730* on Sat Oct 7 17:47:41 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Fred G on Sat Oct 7 13:41:37 2023.* Yes, up 3rd Ave to Fordham U. following the old el route.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Fred G* on Sat Oct 7 18:29:12 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Italianstallion on Sat Oct 7 15:12:57 2023.* Nice! Thanks!
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Fred G* on Sat Oct 7 18:29:25 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 7 17:47:41 2023.* Cool! Thanks!
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Sat Oct 7 19:24:06 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Italianstallion on Sat Oct 7 15:12:57 2023.* IAWTP
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Train Dude* on Sat Oct 7 19:45:13 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Italianstallion on Sat Oct 7 15:12:57 2023.* The area is underserved but there is the problem of getting the line to concourse yard where the line was originally pladded to be serviced,
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sat Oct 7 23:37:38 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 7 17:47:41 2023.* Put the White Plains Road line underground and quadruple-track it too.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Catfish 44* on Sun Oct 8 01:43:01 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Italianstallion on Sat Oct 7 15:12:57 2023.* That makes too much sense.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Chris R16/R2730* on Sun Oct 8 06:28:59 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 7 23:37:38 2023.* Hey I didn't say it wouldn't be costly. It's just the best routing IMHO which would fill a gaping hole in Bx subway service that's now 50 years old.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Sun Oct 8 09:34:36 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Oct 8 06:28:59 2023.* That I agree: Running a Bronx SAS over the former 3rd Avenue EL line (whether EL or subway) would fill a hole. If elevated, this likely would need to include a new upper level of Gun Hill Road Station unless the lower level could be converted back to allow for such.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by zac* on Sun Oct 8 12:49:07 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Oct 8 09:34:36 2023.* There probably isn't much getting in the way of the old lower level. This is a pic from 2 years ago:
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sun Oct 8 14:04:37 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Oct 8 06:28:59 2023.* The MTA prefers gaping holes to subway holes.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by randyo* on Sun Oct 8 21:07:25 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by AlM on Sat Oct 7 16:37:52 2023.* As I alluded to in my post, I don’t think that it would do much for east side passengers coming from the Bronx.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Oct 8 21:49:23 2023, in response to Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Oct 6 07:59:34 2023.

I thought re-opening the Elmhurst LIRR station was the worst example of spending money without increasing walk to subway access. The MTA's 20 year plan includes 2 SAS extensions across 125th St. One ends at the St. Nicholas, another continues west and extends up Broadway to 137th St. I've included both in the following analysis.

	item	Current2020	New2020	Current2010	New2010	Current2000	New2000
1	Manhattan
2	- Population	1,694,251		1,585,873		1,537,195
3	- avg Dist To Subway (miles)	0.180	0.180	0.178	0.178	0.178	0.178
4	- median Dist To Sub (miles)	0.154	0.153	0.151	0.151	0.154	0.154
5	- Walk To Subway	1,657,603	1,657,603	1,552,889	1,552,889	1,501,412	1,501,412
6	- % Population	97.8%	97.8%	97.9%	97.9%	97.7%	97.7%
7	- Increase		0		0		0
8	- % Increase		0.0%		0.0%		0.0%
9	- Travel To Subway	36,648	36,648	32,984	32,984	35,783	35,783
10	- % Population	2.2%	2.2%	2.1%	2.1%	2.3%	2.3%
11	- Decrease		0		0		0
12	- % Decrease		0.0%		0.0%		0.0%
13	- avg Dist to Subway (miles)	0.599	0.599	0.600	0.600	0.600	0.600
14	- median Dist to Subway (miles)	0.572	0.572	0.566	0.566	0.577	0.577
15	Proposed Stop Walking Increase
16	137th St		0		0		0
17	Broadway-125th St		0		0		0
18	Lenox Ave		0		0		0
19	St. Nicholas Ave		0		0		0

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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Dyre Dan* on Mon Oct 9 15:24:34 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Oct 8 21:49:23 2023.* Obviously, if the new stations are all at the same intersections as existing stations, there will be no change in anybody's distance to "the subway", and no one needs a table of statistics to see that. But a crosstown line on 125th St. will greatly increase connectivity between lines, making many trips a lot shorter than they had been, and so making the subway a practical alternative for trips that it wasn't practical for before. I'm talking about trips between stations on different lines in upper Manhattan and the Bronx, which would now require going down to 96th St. or even 42nd St. (or else do a crazy zig-zag using up to five trains). Or from, say, the #6 line to points on the upper West Side, like Columbia University.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Italianstallion* on Mon Oct 9 15:25:42 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by randyo on Sun Oct 8 21:07:25 2023.* Well, 2 riders could stay on until 125th and transfer to the SAS to get to the East Side, thus avoiding the Lex.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Italianstallion* on Mon Oct 9 15:29:12 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Oct 8 21:49:23 2023.* It’s about connections, more transfer opportunities, easier West to East Side access, easing trips now taken by bus across 125th, etc. Walk-to-subway ease is just one of many relevant factors.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Italianstallion* on Mon Oct 9 15:30:13 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Oct 9 15:24:34 2023.* Exactly. He has a monomaniacal fixation on walk-to-subway access.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by geoffc* on Mon Oct 9 16:12:14 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Train Dude on Fri Oct 6 08:39:21 2023.* Only a small short tunnel exists down at the bottom, and the current plan is not to use them.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Allan* on Mon Oct 9 16:32:39 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by geoffc on Mon Oct 9 16:12:14 2023.* Yes. It is about a 700 foot section from the Manhattan bridge southward.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by AlM* on Mon Oct 9 18:20:17 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Italianstallion on Mon Oct 9 15:30:13 2023.* It's a well known phenomenon. You fixate on improving the factors you are able to measure, rather than examining whether you are measuring the right things.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Marc A. Rivlin* on Mon Oct 9 20:00:48 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by AlM on Mon Oct 9 18:20:17 2023.* It's one of a number of useful metrics that can be used. One goal of transit construction is to reduce car use by allowing more commuters access to (faster) transit. These numbers measure that using available data. Another factor the MTA is using is cumulative reduced travel times. It's another factor that you can estimate. IBX and SAS crossing 125th improves those. Reducing overcrowding on existing lines is a third factor that can be measured. All of these factors matter. What we prioritize affects how we weight each factor.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Marc A. Rivlin* on Mon Oct 9 20:01:28 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by AlM on Mon Oct 9 18:20:17 2023.* It's one of a number of useful metrics that can be used. One goal of transit construction is to reduce car use by allowing more commuters access to (faster) transit. These numbers measure that using available data. Another factor the MTA is using is cumulative reduced travel times. It's another factor that you can estimate. IBX and SAS crossing 125th improves those. Reducing overcrowding on existing lines is a third factor that can be measured. All of these factors matter. What we prioritize affects how we weight each factor.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Andrew Saucci* on Mon Oct 9 20:30:29 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Mon Oct 9 20:00:48 2023.* What gets frustrating is that often, the MTA will throw out most or all of the useful metrics (not just walk-to-subway distance) and just build stuff where little or no opposition exists, or where someone else will foot the bill for construction. Walk-to-subway is probably one of the most useful metrics, as that last half mile may be the difference between whether any of the other metrics even matter at all to an individual who is contemplating whether to use the subway or not, especially in bad weather. People who live in neighborhoods away from a nearby subway station might not care about transfer opportunities once on the subway, or average train speed, or on-time performance if that last half mile keeps them off the subway in the first place. They may justly wonder why they are neglected while parts of the city that already have that last half mile covered are being given additional service.
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Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Mon Oct 9 21:42:51 2023, in response to Re: Extending the SAS across 125th on the table, posted by AlM on Mon Oct 9 18:20:17 2023.* For him, it only exists if he can quantify it somehow and make a chart or table.
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