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| Re: MTA Shuttle Buses Monday -Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment (1261217) | |
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Re: MTA Shuttle Buses Monday -Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Dec 1 19:52:05 2013, in response to Re: MTA Shuttle Buses Monday -Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment, posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 1 19:26:26 2013. But it does not say what time the bus shuttles leave 242 for Yonkers.Probably frequently enough. 4tph of transferees works out as a lot of beese. Assuming that there are 650 people on each train, and 65 people can squeeze into a bus, that's 40bph. And they're not all going to wait around and leave at once: parking that many buses on Broadway would be a challenge. |
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Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Sun Dec 1 19:53:20 2013, in response to Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun Dec 1 09:38:07 2013. How would this wreck be any different if the diesel was on the front ?Something tells me pushing the train into the curve with no brakes made it worse. A very bad year for MNRR. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: MTA Shuttle Buses Monday -Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 1 19:55:05 2013, in response to Re: MTA Shuttle Buses Monday -Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment, posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Dec 1 19:52:05 2013. If you want to catch a specific train out of Yonkers, especially off-hours when there are 2tph, it would help to know how soon before the train departure you need to be at 242. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: MTA Shuttle Buses Monday -Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Dec 1 20:00:28 2013, in response to Re: MTA Shuttle Buses Monday -Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment, posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 1 19:55:05 2013. True, but probably they don't know themselves. |
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Re: MTA Shuttle Buses Monday -Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Dec 1 20:02:56 2013, in response to Re: MTA Shuttle Buses Monday -Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment, posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 1 19:55:05 2013. As early as possible, and wait in Yonkers, not the City. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by bklynsubwaybob on Sun Dec 1 20:10:27 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 1 18:50:41 2013. I had one of those too. Brakes good until the last application. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Dec 1 20:12:19 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by WillD on Sun Dec 1 17:50:35 2013. ..? Both have. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by bklynsubwaybob on Sun Dec 1 20:16:30 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 1 18:08:11 2013. An expert, you say! |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 1 20:35:56 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by bklynsubwaybob on Sun Dec 1 20:10:27 2013. Arnines perchance? :) |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 1 20:36:58 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by bklynsubwaybob on Sun Dec 1 20:16:30 2013. Heh. You know who. :) |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by 600vdc on Sun Dec 1 20:42:32 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Dec 1 09:06:20 2013. One of my favorite comments that has been spoken by several TV reporters on various channels (local and national) is that there are "seven trains" derailed. Duh! And I was always under the apparently mistaken impression that several cars made up a single train. Who knew? :-) |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 1 20:43:10 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 1 18:50:41 2013. So the Terrorist spikes the brakes at Terrytown, and gets off of the train. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 20:50:39 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by 600vdc on Sun Dec 1 20:42:32 2013. and don't forget the Engine car !!!! |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 20:51:43 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 1 20:43:10 2013. Tarrytown ??? I guess not only your jokes are bad ????? |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 1 20:52:56 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 1 20:43:10 2013. The Po'town trains usually ran express, so the previous stop would have been Yonkers. Methinks you have too much cable TV where you are. :) |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Dec 1 21:07:10 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Dec 1 20:12:19 2013. Really? We got two different accounts as to how the alerter is triggered around permanent speed restrictions. One of them is almost undoubtedly correct. The other, not so much. |
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Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Dec 1 21:18:19 2013, in response to Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 1 17:28:57 2013. There gonna do their best to hang this on the engineer. All indications (so far)indicate excessive speed. The position of the equiptment in addition to the passengers accounts all point to the engineers heavy foot. And if he's to blame, then so be it. He'll reap what he sowed.When the NTSB finishes its investigation, thats when all the facts will become public. Rushes to judgement dosen't solve anything Innocent until proven guilty, remember? My question here is where the hell is Permut, the CEO of Metro North?? Even if he had nothing to add, should'nd he have shown his face to the masses to at least give the ruse that he had an interest in the goings on?? Haven't seen him in any of the Metro North accidents, anywhere. Allow me to rush to judgement on this empty suit. he should be fired ASAP. All this crap happened on his watch, so like the manager or head coach, he should take the hit. He never should have gotten the job in the first place. He has no transportation experience. His "claim to fame" is strictly marketing. After what has happened to his railroad this past year, he has a marketing nightmare he has to turn around, to say the least. If he survives this current rash of accidents, as in keep his job, then he must have pictures of the governor interacting with livestock |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by j trainloco on Sun Dec 1 21:20:20 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 1 19:44:03 2013. I guess what I don't understand is what scenario would leave a train with brake failure and no way to stop? If air pressure was lost, then the brakes should engage. Even if there was a failure on the locomotive's dynamic brake, the emergency brakes should still activate brake shoes. And what scenario would result in a loss of ALL of the brake shoes? I'm genuinely asking the question. I can't see a situation where the engineer shouldn't have been able to stop the train. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Dec 1 21:22:50 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Dec 1 19:42:55 2013. Multiple backups only reduce the risk of catastrophic failure. It is much much less likely that multiple catastrophic failure will happen, but if you do enough tests, one of them may be the one in however many case.Three days after JFK's inauguration in 1961 there was a case of multiple backup failures that very nearly changed the course of American history. An Air Force bomber broke up in the air over eastern North Carolina and in the process dropped two hydrogen bombs, though one of them didn't have a warhead. The bomb with the warhead, an enormous four-megaton warhead for that matter, floated down on a parachute* and was found hanging in a tree by the side of a quiet country road. Atomic bombs were equipped with three safety devices to prevent unintentional detonation in the event of a crash or other accident. All three were engineered to be completely independent of one another, so that the failure of one device would have no bearing on the operation of the other three. Examination of the bomb in the tree showed that all three devices had failed, in what was something like a ten million-to-one situation. Fortunately, a few months earlier the military had added a fourth safety device to bombs, and that one held. * = H-bombs were on parachutes so that in the event of war, the aircraft dropping a bomb could get a safe distance away before detonation My blog |
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Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Dec 1 21:27:48 2013, in response to Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun Dec 1 07:57:09 2013. 5 of 7 cars..plus the Gennie.damn shame.. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 1 21:28:28 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 1 20:52:56 2013. This may be so or not, but I do not watch TV. All of my info comes from what I read here today, and I was Surprised to see Tarrytown listed as a stop, but that is what was said.ROAR |
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Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 1 21:29:11 2013, in response to Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Dec 1 21:18:19 2013. Agreed ... and yeah, been there done that as far as the blame game goes. :( |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 1 21:34:38 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 1 21:28:28 2013. You ARE aware that subchat is as reliable a source as CNN or FOX, right? :) |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 1 21:36:25 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by j trainloco on Sun Dec 1 21:20:20 2013. A REDUCTION of air pressure in the train lines applies the brakes, but if there was no air, then there are no brakes. Black Box will show all.NTSB web site still has nothing up on this, maybe they are still in shut-down mode in DC. ROAR |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Sun Dec 1 21:40:05 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by 600vdc on Sun Dec 1 20:42:32 2013. Everyone should realize that on a weekend, the station field reporters usually don't have anything more challenging to cover than a parade. Also the weekend people tend to be newer hires....coming from places like Boise, where there ain't a train around for 2000 miles! They also get stuck with the assignment of filling tons of air time, even though there is really nothing to report, so they end up speculating on what little they know about transit. So they end up repeating the same stuff over and over and over....for HOURS. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Bill From Maspeth on Sun Dec 1 21:48:05 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by 600vdc on Sun Dec 1 20:42:32 2013. The media knows ZILCH about trains. Many don't know that a bunch of cars = a train. Look at how many call the engineer/train operator the conductor. I got a facebook posting this AM that said some reporter for NBC said that the engineer was in the back because that's where the power/engine was. No conception of what a cab car is. Some reporters were wondering out loud why the engine was in the back rather than in the front. I guess they never saw a Grand Central bound diesel hauled train in their life. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 1 21:48:29 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Sun Dec 1 21:40:05 2013. And worse, because the producers are usually rookies too, they don't recut the packages. So whatever errors were in the first cut will be repeated for the rest of the day. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Bill From Maspeth on Sun Dec 1 21:52:54 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by j trainloco on Sun Dec 1 21:20:20 2013. This is what the NTSB is there for, to find the cause and tell us why.But here on SubChat if we don't get the answer now we're not happy campers. I just wonder if there was a complete breakdown of the control stand in the cab car that made it useless to give commands to the locomotive. Yes, in that case the train should have went BIE but in train wrecks, more than one thing goes wrong. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by j trainloco on Sun Dec 1 22:00:49 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 1 21:36:25 2013. No, that's not true. reduction in air engages the brakes. Total reduction (or a loss of air) results in total braking. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by j trainloco on Sun Dec 1 22:03:43 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Bill From Maspeth on Sun Dec 1 21:52:54 2013. Yep, you're right. I'm just asking because everyone seems to be pointing to 'mechanical failure', when the most obvious and common cause of accidents is being ignored. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Dec 1 23:01:28 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Bill From Maspeth on Sun Dec 1 21:48:05 2013. Some reporters were wondering out loud why the engine was in the back rather than in the front. I guess they never saw a Grand Central bound diesel hauled train in their life.Sounds a lot like the same comments from the late 90s NJT wreck at the meadows... I thought the media had gotten a lesson on what a cab car was then. Did they all retire? |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Dec 1 23:14:03 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Dec 1 18:48:53 2013. Presumably something like that would be caught by the brake check before beginning the trip. Otherwise the tampering would have to happen en route, and considering the hassle railfans get, someone dicking around under the train at a station is going to turn a lot of heads. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Bill West on Sun Dec 1 23:40:16 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Dec 1 19:42:55 2013. The Keep It Simple Sam theory has to be considered too. Each additional part increases the likelihood of something failing.ex #1 -a co -worker wanted me to add a second low oil pressure switch to an emergency generator to increase reliability. I asked what the original problem was. He hadn't considered that if it was a failure to shut down then the switches should be in parallel so that either one of them could initiate a shutdown. But if the problem had been false shutdowns then they needed to be in series so that they both had to agree before causing a shutdown. We left the system with one switch, his area was mechanical design not a control design. ex #2 -an oil tanker had a manual switch added to block the emergency generator's circuit breaker and allow the system to be exercised without disturbing the normal power system. First time the generator was needed for real the switch contact failed and kept the circuit breaker open. Bill |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Ray Jules on Mon Dec 2 00:00:10 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 1 20:52:56 2013. Weekend schedule expresses stop at Ossining and Tarrytown south of croton, no yonkers |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 2 00:31:37 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Ray Jules on Mon Dec 2 00:00:10 2013. Ah ... different from how it used to be then. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 2 03:12:52 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by j trainloco on Sun Dec 1 21:20:20 2013. Please don't get me started on that one. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Bill West on Mon Dec 2 04:12:52 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by j trainloco on Sun Dec 1 21:20:20 2013. Three cases where an engineer couldn't stop his train:1. This one is theoretical but it does show that here can be much subtlety to what will or won't happen on a train. We have a long 2% grade out west here and a friend has crewed down it. He explained that at 20-22mph the dynamic would hold a long freight and the air could easily stop it. But at a mere 3-4mph faster the train would be completely out of control and would runaway with flames shooting from the wheels. The numbers in the physics can multiply that fast. There is much skill to being an engineer and sometimes very little margin for human failure or mechanical weakness in railroading. I shudder to think what would happen if the speedometer was out of calibration by 2-3mph and the engineer relied on it. 2. Two-three decades ago Union Pacific had a work train run away in Nevada and hit a freight at high speed. When the braking abilities of the train were questioned another train of the same class of equipment was made up for a trial. It took the car foreman about a week to adjust every car exactly enough to make the train manageable under the same conditions. 3. In Wisconsin a freight car's end frame bent while running. It didn't uncouple or derail but it kinked the brake pipe closed and the engineer couldn't get a reduction for an upcoming stop. When it became apparent that the train wouldn't respond he had the caboose dump the air from their end. It is an example of why today's FREDs have a radio dump feature. Now today's accident didn't involve mountain grades but I'm sure that a little digging would bring up closer examples. As much as the evening news is suspecting speed and the engineer has been quoted as saying he hit the brakes, we don't know if the accident is for want of action on his part or a lack of reaction on the part of the brakes or for that matter the wheel adhesion. Bill |
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Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment |
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Posted by chud1 on Mon Dec 2 04:14:27 2013, in response to Re: Breaking News MNRR Derailment, posted by Neil Feldman on Sun Dec 1 19:27:10 2013. my prayers to the familes of those who died in this accident.chud1. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Dec 2 04:34:00 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by j trainloco on Sun Dec 1 22:00:49 2013. only if it happens instantaneous.the problem lies at point of braking for speed restriction. If engineer realizes that brakes don't work he can dump it but two problems what if brakes are just not as effective or time loss of deciding to dump it have already made that train move 10 or more car lengths past where he should have started to brake. either way the train is gone go to fast entering that restriction. at 75 mph that train moves 110 feet per second. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Dec 2 04:46:18 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Dec 1 23:14:03 2013. even if you do a brake test that does not preclude brake failure.trains do hit things, components do fail, in 63 miles a lot of things can happen. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Mon Dec 2 06:11:48 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Dec 1 17:19:44 2013. Sorry, I'm going with CYA. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by merrick1 on Mon Dec 2 07:07:10 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Sun Dec 1 21:40:05 2013. But wait, MPI builds locomotives in Boise. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Mon Dec 2 07:38:32 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 1 21:48:29 2013. One funny thing was that Ch 4 called in Lou Young - and he looked like he had a hangover the size of Milwaukee. :PI was surprised Ch 2 actually kept going and preempted the NFL pregame - Fox 5 cut away for theirs. Of course, they made sure everyone knew that they would be going from one train wreck to cover the train wreck that is the Jets these days... |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Dec 2 07:42:59 2013, in response to PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Fred G on Sun Dec 1 09:04:53 2013. Obviously, the loss of life and the injuries to humans are more serious...but I have to ask..is the locomotive a write-off as well? |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Dec 2 09:08:08 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by merrick1 on Mon Dec 2 07:07:10 2013. And Idaho actually has a lot of trains. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Dec 2 09:19:05 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by Bill West on Mon Dec 2 04:12:52 2013. The numbers in the physics can multiply that fast.That's not really a fair statement. There easily could be engineering issues that cause the problem you describe and that I know nothing about, but you can't blame the underlying physics. A train going down a grade at 25 mph only has to convert gravitational energy into heat (in the brake shoes and the engine, hopefully) 25% faster than a train going 20 mph. It's a purely linear effect. |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Dec 2 10:36:33 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 1 21:34:38 2013. A guy has to have his sources. The best photos (artistically and composition wise) were published by Al Jezeera America.ROAR |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Dec 2 10:46:11 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by j trainloco on Sun Dec 1 22:00:49 2013. You are not correct. A car with no air has no brakes.A pipe reduction reconfigures the brake valves on each car, and the air pressure in the car's air tank will apply the brakes. If there is no air in the car tank (I cannot spell resivour and spell check is not helping me) then that car has no brakes. This is why you set hand brakes when you park a train. I think all hasmat and pax trains should have track brakes activated hydraulically for emergency use only. Without a song and dance, I *know* you can figure out how to do this if you wanted to. ROAR |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Dec 2 10:48:32 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by AlM on Mon Dec 2 09:08:08 2013. Idaho about that. I think that they have more mountains.ROAR |
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Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Dec 2 11:12:05 2013, in response to Re: PHOTO - Genny on its side, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Dec 2 07:42:59 2013. It does not look like it to me. Nor the cars, but we will sea.ROAR |
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