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| Re: 76st what happened? (1030985) | |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Feb 3 11:15:54 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Feb 3 07:09:16 2011. hehehehe. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 3 12:48:08 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Thu Feb 3 03:04:55 2011. Probably not. The most likely reason was that the area south of Pitkin was sparsely developed, while as the Broadway El turned north onto Crescent to Jamaica, the Fulton El had the opportunity to shift north as well. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 3 12:49:29 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 08:14:39 2011. In the absence of evidence, the reasonable conclusion is that there is nothing there. Otherwise anyone can come up with any crazy assertion and assume it's true simply because it hasn't been disproved. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Feb 3 13:23:22 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 3 12:49:29 2011. The fact of the matter is, we don't know. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Thu Feb 3 14:28:13 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 3 12:48:08 2011. That may be part of it but if you have ever seen any photos of the IRT Flushing Line when it first opened the area around Queens Blvd was nothing but empty lots. Most transit lines were built first and the populations then followed. When the BMT 4 Ave LIne first opened, the area now occupied by 5 and 6 story apartment buildings was nothing but wide open spaces. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 14:48:59 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 3 12:49:29 2011. Yes I agree with that. What I should have said instead of "neutral" was "open minded" to it. But I am more on the side of it's "not" there than it is. That said, the 1951 photos prove nothing either way. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 16:17:22 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 08:07:00 2011. What was claimed to be strange about it though is that it was only the one building and IIRC, there was something about a street corner having placement that would have perfectly fit an IND staircase as far as surrounding sidewalk area went ... it's back there somewhere in one of the 76th stories, someone even took pictures and posted those too. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 16:22:31 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 3 12:49:29 2011. Maybe it's just me, but my conclusion is that it is "unresolved." Believing first that there's nothing there does sound a little bit "Papist" if you think about it. "Nothing there" is a conclusion, and we do not HAVE a conclusion until it is either verified or denied. Do we need to obsess? Nope. But some things remain a mystery. This is one of those. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by phxtusbusfan on Thu Feb 3 16:50:41 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 16:17:22 2011. 76th and Pitkin would fit the staircase arrangement perfectly.NE corner: View Larger Map NW corner: View Larger Map SE corner: View Larger Map SW corner: View Larger Map |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Feb 3 16:59:14 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 17:24:37 2011. Can we count Roosevelt ave.upper level.Roosevelt Ave upper level with tiles doesn't count, just like Utica Ave upper level with no tiles. Those stations were built as a station complex. 76th St. would have been the first station after Euclid Ave. and the tunnel complex. If the city knew the line would be built as designed, they probably would have built 76th St. after money was appropriated for the project. Not building 76th St. when Euclid Ave was built would have saved money. That's how I feel about the whole magilla. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by phxtusbusfan on Thu Feb 3 17:05:27 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 17:45:14 2011. This has been the longest and most detailed discussion of the subject we've had on here. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 17:25:03 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by phxtusbusfan on Thu Feb 3 16:50:41 2011. The picture I remember was right up against somebody's wall I think. None of those shots ring a bell though. Hmmmm ... |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 17:26:30 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by phxtusbusfan on Thu Feb 3 17:05:27 2011. And THIS one barely rates as a battle of the photogs. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 17:50:04 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 16:17:22 2011. Yes, this is all true, but again, one of the reasons the setbacks are further back at Pitkin and 76th St is the same reason homes are set back further in other locations where the buildings were built after the setback laws changed.For example, you were once able to build way up near the property line, that's not true and more. And on corners, you have two sides where there are street set backs in place. In any event, this is what I mean....you can see it better in neighborhoods that were built in the early 1900's, fell apart and rebuilt. Notice how in these three photos (from Bushwick), some of the old buildings survive, but in the 70's and 80's, old buildings were burned and torn down, and in the early 2000's, rebuilt with new buildings. The new buildings are not set back farther because they wanted them too, but because zoning now requires further back setbacks than they used to have. At 76th St, the buildings are newer too (60's, and that was probably after the set backs were already changed)   
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 17:58:56 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 17:50:04 2011. I can't remember the details, and it was a couple of years ago when it was posted, but the pictures showed some anomoly of one building that was set back differently from the others. Phxtusbusfan gives us all four corners courtesy of the google volkswagen and none of the four seem as I remember the pictures here being. I doubt anything much has changed there either, so I'm really confused about what I remember now. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Feb 3 18:06:12 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 17:58:56 2011. Lay down,take a nap,it will come to you in a dream. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 18:09:01 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Feb 3 18:06:12 2011. Nah ... still waking up. :)(I work nights lately) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Thu Feb 3 21:00:20 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 17:50:04 2011. I'd buy your argument if the two nearby intersections had the same setbacks (75th and Pitkin and 77th and Pitkin).However, if you use our friend Google you'll find that NEITHER 75th and Pitkin or 77th and Pitkin have all 4 buildings on all four corners set back to the degree that buildings at 76th and Pitkin are. In fact, the buildings on the SE and SW corners of 77th and Pitkin almost border the sidewalk there. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 21:17:52 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Thu Feb 3 21:00:20 2011. Ah ... you went to the trouble of LOOKING! :)Can't remember what I saw a couple of years ago, but the four corners in the google pictures doesn't line up with what I remember, but whoever took them was actually on the sidewalk instead of in a speeding volkswagen. Heh. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Thu Feb 3 21:24:41 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 21:17:52 2011. I've got a free ticket on Southwest Airlines that I need to use by sometime in April. Now that Southwest flies to LGA, I may have to come out there and take some photos.The last time I was in the area, I took the A from Penn Station all the way to Far Rockaway. I should've gotten off at Grant and explored that area. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 21:52:28 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Thu Feb 3 21:00:20 2011. I am not buying any of this "setback" stuff. While of course built through a developed area, take a random station on the line, Shepherd Ave which was built at around the same time 76th St would have been built, and the subway entrances are just next to non-setback buildings.View Larger Map |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Thu Feb 3 21:55:31 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 21:52:28 2011. 3 of the 4 corners have buildings that are set back. Is it possible that the building on that final corner was built before subway construction? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 22:01:26 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Thu Feb 3 21:24:41 2011. Heh. If I had a free ticket to ride, dunno if I'd burn it on 76th and Pitkin. After all, ain't much to see there these days. Obviously, you're starved for entertainment. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Thu Feb 3 22:12:19 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 22:01:26 2011. I wouldn't come to NYC -just- to see that. I'd try to catch a Yankee or Mets game as well. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Thu Feb 3 22:17:28 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 21:52:28 2011. The building in the photo was built long before the subway was planned, thus it was not set back to accommodate something which did not exist- the plan for a subway. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Thu Feb 3 22:20:44 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Joe Saitta on Thu Feb 3 22:17:28 2011. That was my thinking. Especially as the buildings on the 3 other corners have the same set back as the buildings at 76th and Pitkin. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 22:34:19 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Joe Saitta on Thu Feb 3 22:17:28 2011. No kidding.I am saying that there fact that the buildings are set back at 76th and Pitkin have probably nothing to do with the fact that there may have been a subway planned there, as the subway entrances wouldn't interfere anyway. The only reason they are set back at 76th St is because the buildings built there were built after the setback zoning laws changed. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 22:36:04 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Thu Feb 3 22:20:44 2011. ????LOOK at the subway entrances, they are in the same position in proximity to the street as the one with the old building. The other 3 corners have set back buildings because the original buildings burned down in the 70's and were replaced. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 23:37:23 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Thu Feb 3 22:12:19 2011. NOW you've got a reason ... :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by sloth on Thu Feb 3 23:55:19 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 07:35:37 2011. However, one of the interesting elevation features in the area is the drop in Pitkin between Elderts and Forbell. This seems to correspond with where A7 and A8 would descend to meet the tracks below, kind of like the hill over Rogers Jct on Eastern Parkway. I don't remember how far the existence of the tracks under Pitkin could be proven, but that hill on Pitkin-- there isn't a corresponding one on Glenmore, 1 block north-- seems to indicate that the tunnel extends to Forbell or perhaps Drew. That puts us 1 or 1.5 blocks from the western end of the station, which I tend to believe in most days.I remember reading that there were NYCTA manhole covers on Pitkin at one point, and an old list of emergency exits might be very interesting to see as well. I think A7 and A8 might hold the key to this mystery if there was any way of getting into them from above, past where they're walled off. I have a friend who grew up at Pitkin & 79th, though his family wasn't there when this was being constructed, and anyone who would have been there would be very old by now. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 02:19:59 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 14:48:59 2011. That said, the 1951 photos prove nothing either way.The 1951 photo is CONCLUSIVE. The station allegedly operated between 1948-1952. There's nothing there. That building with the big yard setback on the corner that people like to photograph? Nothing there. That building BTW appears in the 1954 photo on HistoricAeriels.com. Property tax records indicate that the rest of the houses on that corner were built in 1960. Nothing there. It seems that all the "Stationers" go out of their way with the most outlandish scenarios for why things are not the way they are supposed to be and continue to ignore the most obvious. Nothing was built. The trackways behind the cinderblock wall probably terminate just a bit beyond where Pitkin dips after the parking lot on Elderts Lane. There is then a pronounced dip in the street. Imagine how much it dipped before Pitkin was raised? Imagine the challenges of digging in that bayou? No wonder they opted to capture the Liberty El. Cut-and cover work most likely continued to just before the school with piles of dirt left there once abandoned. The street was then raised above the roof of that portion. When NYCT was most likely having flooding and safety problems due to it, they decided to seal it off. The End. Fin. View Larger Map |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 02:26:02 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by phxtusbusfan on Thu Feb 3 16:50:41 2011. But yet they decided to not build such a staircase between 1948-52 when the station was purportedly being used? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 02:28:48 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 17:25:03 2011. You must be thinking of this.View Larger Map |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 02:35:31 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Thu Feb 3 21:24:41 2011. I've got a free ticket on Southwest Airlines that I need to use by sometime in April. Now that Southwest flies to LGA, I may have to come out there and take some photos.HA-ha! 
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 02:37:20 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 02:28:48 2011. I think so. In I think Joe Brennan's April Fool Joke page there's some reference to the "only commercial building" on the street in the area "probably in anticipation of a subway entrance".Of course total nonsense, in accordance to the whole joke. Of course the same article that mentions "sinkholes" and balls rolling in of course.... :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Fri Feb 4 02:37:33 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 02:26:02 2011. The station couldn't have been used as a terminal. More than likely, they simply laid up trains in there. No need for a staircase for that. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Fri Feb 4 02:39:35 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 02:35:31 2011. LOL! |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 02:43:33 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by phxtusbusfan on Thu Feb 3 17:05:27 2011. It even drew me in!I could not remain silent any longer. 
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 02:46:58 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 02:19:59 2011. The 1951 photo is CONCLUSIVE.It proves nothing either way. The station allegedly operated between 1948-1952. There's nothing there. OBERATED? Huh? Where was it ever written that this alleged station ever "operated", much less whatever years? That building with the big yard setback on the corner that people like to photograph? Nothing there. ??? Yes, nothing there. So? The building probably was built in the later. The big yard is because of setback laws by that point, not because "there was an entrance planned. What does that have to do with the photo? That building BTW appears in the 1954 photo on HistoricAeriels.com. Property tax records indicate that the rest of the houses on that corner were built in 1960. Nothing there. Again, what does that have to do with anything? It seems that all the "Stationers" go out of their way with the most outlandish scenarios for why things are not the way they are supposed to be and continue to ignore the most obvious. I already explained why the buildings have "larger yards", because of the setback laws changing. YOu can't put buildings as close to the property line as you could in the early 1900's. Nothing to do with the photo either way. Nothing was built. The trackways behind the cinderblock wall probably terminate just a bit beyond where Pitkin dips after the parking lot on Elderts Lane. Maybe, maybe not, but none of that could be proved from the photo. There is then a pronounced dip in the street. Imagine how much it dipped before Pitkin was raised? Imagine the challenges of digging in that bayou? Again, nothing that can be proved from the photo. No wonder they opted to capture the Liberty El. Cut-and cover work most likely continued to just before the school with piles of dirt left there once abandoned. The street was then raised above the roof of that portion. "Most likely" implies speculation. Again, this can't be proven, nor disproven from the image. When NYCT was most likely having flooding and safety problems due to it, they decided to seal it off. Probably. But again, speculation, and nothing to do with the image. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 02:49:22 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Fri Feb 4 02:37:33 2011. Alleged eyewitness said they saw a stairwell leading up to a sealed exit on the platform. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 02:52:18 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 02:37:20 2011. Not only that but that building is actually closer to the streets than the houses next to it.It's an optical illusion because the brick enclosures of the residential properties make it seem like that business is set back further from the street than it actually is. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Feb 4 02:54:30 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 02:28:48 2011. Not sure ... wish I knew where the original post was with the picture making the claim that "here is where it was." But I'm not motivated to do all that digging for it. I'm sure others remember it. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 03:17:44 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 02:26:02 2011. Who said this alleged station was ever used? The consensus is that even if this alleged station was built, it was never used. Where do you get this idea from? Even the people that claim it was there say only one side was completed of the two platforms. If it was built it was only a shell, unfinished, and may or may not have ever had finishing work like stairways. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Feb 4 03:18:59 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Fri Feb 4 02:37:33 2011. Since it was never finished (if ever built), yes, it could never have been used as a terminal, as it wasn't finished. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Fri Feb 4 05:42:41 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Thu Feb 3 21:24:41 2011. I've got a free ticket on Southwest Airlines that I need to use by sometime in April. Now that Southwest flies to LGA, I may have to come out there and take some photos.The way this winter is going, those snow banks in the street will probably be there in April. Try May or June. LOL Bill Newkirk |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 4 06:55:39 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 02:19:59 2011. The station allegedly operated between 1948-1952. Huh? WTF are you talking about? |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 4 09:50:20 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 16:22:31 2011. There is nothing there. There is no need to prove baseless assertions. If somebody comes along and shows some evidence for something there (like your radar sled), then I can begin to believe. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 4 09:54:56 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Thu Feb 3 14:28:13 2011. The Flushing Line was built with city money, the city would no doubt be interested in investing in developing a new neighborhood. OTOH the Fulton El was built with private money, and the investors may have been more interested in building in an already developed area. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 4 09:56:41 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 4 09:54:56 2011. I should add that I don't think even Liberty was that developed when the el was built, but by moving further north, there was more development and more future development. Pitkin Avenue was pretty much the northern end of the marshes at that point, and it would be necessary to build more expensively on lower quality land, for what could be expected to be undeveloped or sparsely-developed land for decades. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Feb 4 11:09:53 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 4 02:49:22 2011. Guys,there NEVER was tracks laid in the shell station.A7 bumper blocked just before the station& A8 b/b a distance away from the PARTIALLY built mann.bound station.hey randyo,I was reading a personal letter yesterday from bernie linder dated feb.2001,10 years ago.we were discussing 76st.he said years prior he had met a conductor who had told him about a station at 76st.which he promtly for got about.In his letter to me he included a hand drawn map of what the trackage would look like past the wall at grant ave.this was drawn from the 42st.library`s contract drawings of the route.it surprised him to see that the A had plans to go at least 106st.Bernie Linder is the editor-in-chief of the ERA`S bulletin.iirc in an article before mine on 76st was published he stated that after discovering the contract drawings for said ext.the contract books were missing.THE PLOT THICKENS. |
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