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| Re: 76st what happened? (1030985) | |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 17:35:08 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 16:38:53 2011. That's why I brought it up again, kimosabe. :)And I would guess that they might have even gone so far as to break up any stairway (if they existed) in order to insure that nothing got down there anyway. But I *do* remember hearing about the weird setback on some building that was precisely the size and shape of similar IND exits that do exist elsewhere and IIRC, there was even a photo somewhere of the location's sidewalk where the stairway supposedly was. Anyone have a full gas can? This one's empty. Heh. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 17:39:15 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Wed Feb 2 17:09:43 2011. Well ... my main brick-flinging intent here is just to point out that it's pretty silly using a poor quality aerial photograph to attempt to defend or dismiss something that happened nine years before the photograph was taken of a location that was obviously all torn up to a shallow level at the time the picture was taken. Not trying to defend one way or another beyond pointing out that there are some logical flaws in the conclusions being taken ...I know what I was told by people that were working the IND at the time this all happened, and THEY said it was all real ... but it was before my time and so I'll take their word for it, but this isn't a religious event to me either. Having heard about it from many people, I'm definitely curious about all this ... but that's about as deep as it goes for me. We NEED to get that radar sled dragged across there - that will absolutely settle it one way or the other. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 17:45:14 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 2 16:53:38 2011. Heh. Actually, this whole thing is the most fun I've had here in a while. Sure beats watching threads get reefed. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 17:46:32 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 2 16:53:38 2011. Do you know anyone growing younger? |
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Re: 76th Street iDea |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Wed Feb 2 18:21:18 2011, in response to Re: 76th Street iDea, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 17:31:50 2011. No comment. |
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Re: 76th Street iDea |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Wed Feb 2 18:34:10 2011, in response to Re: 76th Street iDea, posted by Joe Saitta on Wed Feb 2 18:21:18 2011. too late |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 2 18:37:49 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 17:35:08 2011. As has already been discussed, setbacks are mandated by the planning department and are done so to allow future subway exits without the need to tear anything down. |
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Re: 76th Street iDea |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Feb 2 19:15:37 2011, in response to Re: 76th Street iDea, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 16:04:00 2011. Perhaps some nuclear missiles are being hidden at 76 Street. |
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Re: 76th Street iDea |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Wed Feb 2 19:25:26 2011, in response to Re: 76th Street iDea, posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Feb 2 19:15:37 2011. No, Jimmy Hoffa is buried there. |
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Re: 76th Street iDea |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Wed Feb 2 19:26:35 2011, in response to Re: 76th Street iDea, posted by Bob Andersen on Wed Feb 2 19:25:26 2011. Oops, I see Bill Newkirk already mentioned Jimmy! |
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Re: 76th Street iDea |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Feb 2 19:26:40 2011, in response to 76th Street iDea, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 2 12:26:43 2011. What's a dea? |
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Re: 76th Street iDea |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 2 19:41:44 2011, in response to Re: 76th Street iDea, posted by Bob Andersen on Wed Feb 2 19:26:35 2011. Oops, I see Bill Newkirk already mentioned Jimmy!And Judge Crater and Elvis too ! Bill Newkirk ( |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 2 19:45:56 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 17:39:15 2011. Right..its a waste of time.The group of NERDUWELS will fight tooth and nail claiming its not there[not that they can actually PROVE shit other than lip flapping].. If skuttlebutts going around about it from TA people..couldn't their be a kernel of truth behind it? Wait..hold on..that might mean YOU are SANTA too.! |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Feb 2 19:57:01 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 2 19:45:56 2011. Actually, one of the people who claimed to be there may still be alive (he retired in 1992 after 40 years with the B of T/TA)), but when we were working we were never that close and I don't think he cared too much for subway buffs anyhow, but i'll see if I can figure out a way to get in touch with him. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Feb 2 20:01:39 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 17:35:08 2011. I don't know if it means anything but looking at Google aerial photos of the entire line along Pitkin Av, I noticed that all the subway entrances except for Euclid were in the streets rather than on Pitkin Av itself. I wonder if that would have been the case with 76 St also. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 20:23:34 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 2 19:45:56 2011. There's also the issue of "crewroom lawyering" which is probably the basis of some of the contempt from folks with the show about it ... but still, I find it amusing that this too has somehow risen to the level of political dogma. Heh.And yes ... I *am* Santa ... ask any kid who's seen me. It's the beard of course. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 20:25:11 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Wed Feb 2 20:01:39 2011. Wish I could remember where I saw that photo of the sidewalk and the buildings on the block that someone was using to bolster their argument for its existence. Then again, the exit for 205th which is actually ON 205th (and Perry) is on Perry rather than 205th, so I'll buy that for a dollah. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Feb 2 20:30:50 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 16:42:39 2011. There also was a proposal to conn.the jamaica EL into the rockaway div.upon BOT takeover.This was to be from the bklyn end\The Jamaica El was connected to the Rockaway Division from about 1898 to 1918.(+/-) Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 20:37:01 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Feb 2 20:30:50 2011. Service ended 2 or 3 days after labor day,1917.it wasn`t the jamaica el at the time,it was the fulton st el. |
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| (1033423) | |
Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Feb 2 20:44:21 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 20:37:01 2011. True but there was BRT rapid transit service to the Rockaways while the IND was still just a glimmer in Mayor Hylan's eyes.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by DHeese810 on Wed Feb 2 21:21:25 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Wed Feb 2 17:11:11 2011. Exactly what I'll be looking for next Monday haha. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by DHeese810 on Wed Feb 2 21:53:33 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 17:35:08 2011. View Larger Map Does this strike anyone as interesting. I'm not an expert on subway grates, but these ones are just west of Pitkin and 80th, near the subway. Any chance we could be dealing with something longer than JUST 76th? -Dan |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by phxtusbusfan on Wed Feb 2 21:57:22 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by DHeese810 on Wed Feb 2 21:53:33 2011. I've been told that those are Con Edison grates. I thought the same thing myself about 6 months ago or so. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 22:04:22 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by DHeese810 on Wed Feb 2 21:53:33 2011. Transformer vault, standard issue ... |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by DHeese810 on Wed Feb 2 22:06:03 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 22:04:22 2011. Damn...well I tried haha |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by phxtusbusfan on Wed Feb 2 22:13:22 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 22:04:22 2011. What's the rule with the spacing of and placement of subway grates. I notice that the last visible grate on Pitkin Ave is at the NE corner of Pitkin and Conduit Ave, then I notice 2 sets of grates in the median of Conduit Ave, however once I look to the west side of Conduit Ave there seem to be seats of grates with about a yard or two of spacing between them (sometimes less, sometimes more) consistently placed along both sides of Pitkin. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by DHeese810 on Wed Feb 2 22:30:24 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by phxtusbusfan on Wed Feb 2 22:13:22 2011. Yes, I see the grates in the median towards the west. My guess is those are for the yard leads into 76th...Wait so if those are the grates for the two sealed up yard leads to 76th, hypothetically, couldn't one enter them and get behind the concrete/cinderblock wall?-Dan |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Wed Feb 2 22:32:33 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by phxtusbusfan on Wed Feb 2 22:13:22 2011. Those are emergency subway exits if they are the same ones I'm familiar with. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by DHeese810 on Wed Feb 2 22:34:44 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Joe Saitta on Wed Feb 2 22:32:33 2011. View Larger Map In this screenshot, I'm referring to the set of grates more towards the Southern Conduit. -Dan |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by murray1575 on Wed Feb 2 22:37:43 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by DHeese810 on Wed Feb 2 22:34:44 2011. And even if there were a station there, what would anyone expect to find? A "ghost train" of Arnines which was left there before the layup tracks were disconnected? |
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| (1033463) | |
Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by DHeese810 on Wed Feb 2 22:37:56 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Joe Saitta on Wed Feb 2 22:32:33 2011. View Larger Map In this screenshot, I'm referring to the set of grates more towards the Southern Conduit. -Dan |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by DHeese810 on Wed Feb 2 22:40:24 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by DHeese810 on Wed Feb 2 22:37:56 2011. Scratch that image, it didnt turn out right...just go to Conduit nd Pitkin and look for the set towards the south.-Dan |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 23:10:54 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Feb 2 14:08:42 2011. Why? it would just be dirt on top of it.So let me get this straight. The City would excavate a 4-track tunnel and subway station shell under a then-open field with no pre-existing structures at those intersections but not bother to widen the street while at it. They would then raise that street above it because of the hydrology of the area (and add sewers, etc). Then knowing that there is a station shell underneath, they would then inexplicably toss dirt over the "roof" of the station instead of building a sidewalk with grates and at least an emergency exit. And all this on that narrow stretch of road. And then if they decided to ever use that station they would dig it all back out. uh huh. No one claims there were every stairways coming up from it. Construction may or may not have every gotten that far. Supposed eyewitness said they saw a stairwell leading to a sealed off exit on a full-length station "platform". And dirt along it would be covering it. YOu make it sound like you know there are "10 foot drops" here. There may be 6 inches there may be 4 feet. None of that can be determined or seen from the photo. You actually think that the City raised the road by only 6 inches in an area that is a watery nightmare? They raised it by at least 3-4 feet over the natural fields there. They probably installed sewers and other works within that. If as you probably correctly pointed out, the pit on the south side of Pitkin is being prepped for foundation works, that adds several more feet right there. That's at least an 8-10 foot drop below Pitkin. Probably more. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Wed Feb 2 23:17:58 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by DHeese810 on Wed Feb 2 22:34:44 2011. The grates I'm referring two are in the center of the North and South Conduit. This is an emergency exit. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 23:22:54 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 20:23:34 2011. I kept an open mind about it. The photo struck down any wild theories about the existence of any station. Most likely the area behind the concrete and cinderblock walls extends and then dips a la BMT City Hall LL for a few car lengths worth of space before Pitkin itself dips (more so pre-raising) and the tunnel ends. Distances seem much longer in the dark when you don't know where you are going.As for radar, since Pitkin was raised, any tunnel would be below the pre-raised level, since the raised part was most likely used to install utilities. A radar would be inconclusive and a waste of time. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Wed Feb 2 23:25:48 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by DHeese810 on Wed Feb 2 22:34:44 2011. Collectively they're for all four yard leads, as some turn west toward Euclid Avenue and the others continue north right into Grant Avenue. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 3 00:06:21 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 23:22:54 2011. I'll grant you your theory since there is no "proff" as yet ... but as to the GPR equipment readily available, it can see a good distance down, probably 200 feet or better. It really IS the correct answer one way or another because let's face it ... none of the others are working. :) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Thu Feb 3 03:01:03 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by murray1575 on Wed Feb 2 22:37:43 2011. Not at all. Just a station shell with the S/B platform either partially or completely tiled. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Thu Feb 3 03:04:55 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 20:37:01 2011. It was probably referred to as the Bway Bkln El since the actual Fulton El ran along Pitkin Av, then across Euclid to Liberty where it ended at Grant Av (City Line). The fact that at the time Pitkin itself actually ended at Ruby St may account for the routing of the old Fulton El over to Liberty. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Randyo on Thu Feb 3 03:11:36 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 23:10:54 2011. True, but as I pointed out in several posts, the mainline of the Pitkin subway had to dip under not only the K1 and K2 tracks into Grant but also K5 and K6 leads which are beneath the track level of Grant and under the roadbeds of A7 and A8. That puts the trackways of 76 St station 3 levels below the street level, one for Grant, one for the yard leads and one for the level of the station itself. The mezzanine of such a station would in all likelihood be also 2 levels below the street since being one level above the station shell itself it would be below the level allowed for the yard leads at that location. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Feb 3 07:09:16 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 17:46:32 2011. Do you know anyone growing younger?Some Polish guy who posts here, can't remember his name right now. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Feb 3 07:56:46 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 2 16:47:01 2011. Or should we say, proff.:) |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Feb 3 07:57:25 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 17:24:37 2011. Well, we know for a fact that it's there and even has tilework. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 08:04:11 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 23:22:54 2011. The photo doesn't prove one way or another, as as Selkirk said, any station infrastructure would be at least 20 feet down, and the photo resolution does now allow to show for 20 foot drops anywhere around. If you claim they are 5 foot drops (somehow magically can tell that I guess), it still isn't sufficient for subway infrastructure to show.The photo neither proves nor disproves anything. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 08:07:00 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Feb 2 20:25:11 2011. Also do remember that the setback laws changed too at some point, with or without subway. Many of the buildings along Pitkin there were built in the 60's. In the 1910's you were allowed to build buildings closer to the street than you could then, and now. So unfortunately, that doesn't prove anything one way or another either. It's a blanket law that setbacks are higher now. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 08:14:39 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Feb 2 16:47:01 2011. I am still neutral on it. There has not been enough evidence to prove it was built, but there's nothing that shows it wasn't either. |
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| (1033530) | |
Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 08:15:30 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Feb 2 17:24:37 2011. No one has to prove anything there, we know it's there, there are photos of it. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 08:19:02 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by Randyo on Thu Feb 3 03:11:36 2011. Correct. If this station exists it would be very low down, as it had to duck under the yard leads to get to this point. There is no way threre would be 20 foot drops on either side of this roadbed. The subway would "have" to be about 15-20 feet down, at least. No way the city would have left such dangerous drops on either side of a road, that would be like mountain ravivines. It's hard to tell there is any drop at all in that photo with bad resolution, much less 20 foot drops.The photo most definitely doesn't prove positive for this station, but it surely doesn't disprove anything either. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 3 08:22:00 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by SMAZ on Wed Feb 2 23:10:54 2011. Then knowing that there is a station shell underneath, they would then inexplicably toss dirt over the "roof" of the station instead of building a sidewalk with grates and at least an emergency exit. And all this on that narrow stretch of road. And then if they decided to ever use that station they would dig it all back out.To duck under the yard leads, this station would have to be pretty deep in the ground. Even the shallow Contract One IRT stations are more than 5 feet in the ground, this one would have to be much lower. By 1951, plans changed already in the construction of this subway, and there's no way the city would have left "20 foot" ravines on either side of this road. I have trouble believing there would be ravines like this even if it was still planned, as that would be pretty dangerous, not to mention, dirt would have to be brought in, as no building needs 20 foot basements either. This idea that these large ravines are on either side road in sunken loots that you would be able to see subway construction that has to be about 15 to 20 feet down is absurd. |
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Re: 76st what happened? |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Feb 3 11:08:02 2011, in response to Re: 76st what happened?, posted by DHeese810 on Wed Feb 2 22:30:24 2011. those gratings are air vents& are to west of the rard leads by about 100 feet. |
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