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| Re: Helen Thomas Retires (617444) | |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jun 7 23:35:05 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Jun 7 23:31:48 2010. The claim was to the West Bank though, if context is viewed.Possibly. But consider just how much of the US was won by conquest. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 7 23:39:27 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jun 7 23:35:05 2010. Ah, yes. I knew trainsarefun would jump in with the anti-American sentiments.So now it only counts when land was won by conquest? I wonder if your Queens Condo is built on an ancient Indian burial ground? |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 7 23:45:25 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jun 7 23:35:05 2010. HOW FUCKING LONG AGO WAS THAT? |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Mon Jun 7 23:45:50 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jun 7 23:07:27 2010. Durbin probably should've been forced out for his comments comparing the US military to the Nazis. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jun 7 23:48:23 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 7 23:39:27 2010. So now it only counts when land was won by conquest?It doesn't only count then, but it does count. Do you want to give back most of this continent to the descendants of the pre-Colombian natives? I certainly don't. I wonder if your Queens Condo is built on an ancient Indian burial ground? Not to my knowledge. But it has a great view of Flushing Meadows and LGA! |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jun 7 23:49:35 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 7 23:45:25 2010. HOW FUCKING LONG AGO WAS THAT?Couple of centuries ago, at the least. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 7 23:58:23 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 7 23:39:27 2010. So now it only counts when land was won by conquest?Then the Arabs have to leave Israel unilaterally. (Uh-oh.) |
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Re: Helenzbollah Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 8 00:06:14 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jun 7 17:17:27 2010. Wow, your fear is so great that you ascribe psionic powers to me. Rockparkman thinks for himself. |
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Re: Now It's Even Worse (Re: Helenzbollah Thomas Retires) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 8 00:08:40 2010, in response to Re: Now Its Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires), posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 7 20:19:26 2010. But that's not the story, is it. And even if it were, it's still a false analogy. |
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Re: Helenzbollah Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 8 00:10:07 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jun 7 13:39:03 2010. Glad you agree, even if it may not be for the same sentiment as mine. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Tue Jun 8 01:32:59 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jun 7 14:11:55 2010. OBAMA IS ANTI-AMERICAN! |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Jun 8 06:59:44 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 7 23:22:25 2010. Technically, most of the United States is "occupied land". During the 19th century, most of the continental US was conquered from Native Americans, whose presence here predated whites by centuries.A thousand years ago, every human being in the present United States was a Native American, without exception. Today, there are only a few, mostly in small pockets "reserved" for them. History is ugly sometimes. |
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Re: Now Its Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires) |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Tue Jun 8 08:56:46 2010, in response to Re: Now Its Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires), posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 7 19:44:10 2010. When I'm actually right, I won't need to cry Hitler, because it will be clear for all to see. My aim is to nip it in the bud before it takes root. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by bmtlines on Tue Jun 8 09:33:28 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jun 7 23:35:05 2010. But the conquered peoples were offered citizenship. All Native Americans are citizens of the US. I don't think that would be a good solution for Israel given the demographics and projected population growth of the Arab population there.Lets not forget that the Native Americans are a minority group that will never again have the power that they had 200+ years ago. OTOH a large Arab population living within Israel (assuming annexation of the territories)that eventually becomes a majority will be a serious cause for concern. It also doesn't matter how prosperous you make a territory - national aspirations will always trump prosperity. Look at Yugoslavia - they were one of the better off communist countries but a civil war broke out once the police state evaporated. Israeli Arabs may be loyal (to some extent) but they are citizens. Maintaining a colonial style control will be much harder for the people to accept and for Israel to maintain. The only 2 options left for Israel are expulsion or granting independence. There is really no easy answer. At this point I am not even sure you can have one independent Palestine either (think East Pakistan and West Pakistan). Seems to me that Gaza and the West Bank are headed separate ways. Ideally the Palestinians should give up their claim to Jerusalem in exchange for visitation rights and accept a sovereign but demilitarized state on the West Bank. As for Gaza - I'd like to give it back to the Egyptians and let them administer it but I doubt that they would want it. Sadat knew what he was doing when he did not include Gaza in the Israeli withdrawal :) |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Jun 8 10:15:33 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Jun 8 06:59:44 2010. "Technically, most of the United States is "occupied land"."Show me the technicality in writing that proves your point. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jun 8 10:18:08 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by Grand Concourse on Mon Jun 7 22:55:32 2010. He got it back a few years later. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Jun 8 10:25:52 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jun 8 10:18:08 2010. Explain! |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Jun 8 10:31:08 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by bmtlines on Tue Jun 8 09:33:28 2010. But the conquered peoples were offered citizenship.It took a long time. It started with some treaties and the Dawes Act, but it didn't finish until 1924. That's about a century and a half after the creation of our country, and some tribes had an even longer wait if you look back at the colonial era. All Native Americans are citizens of the US. I don't think that would be a good solution for Israel given the demographics and projected population growth of the Arab population there. As I've stated, democracy is not the answer. OTOH a large Arab population living within Israel (assuming annexation of the territories)that eventually becomes a majority will be a serious cause for concern. The Arab population is already a cause for great concern. The non-citizen part is a very unhappy Arab population. It also doesn't matter how prosperous you make a territory - national aspirations will always trump prosperity. Look at Yugoslavia - they were one of the better off communist countries but a civil war broke out once the police state evaporated. Israeli Arabs may be loyal (to some extent) but they are citizens. Maintaining a colonial style control will be much harder for the people to accept and for Israel to maintain. Yugoslavia, running on communist precepts, wasn't prosperous enough. You also had in the post-Soviet era, one person, one vote. Look instead to the example of British colonialism and imperialism for a model of relative stability. The only 2 options left for Israel are expulsion or granting independence. Expulsion seems to me a practical non-starter, as I said in other posts. Granting independence also undoes Israel's gains in territory, while making it substantially less secure. At this point I am not even sure you can have one independent Palestine either (think East Pakistan and West Pakistan). Seems to me that Gaza and the West Bank are headed separate ways. I think that's right. Ideally the Palestinians should give up their claim to Jerusalem in exchange for visitation rights and accept a sovereign but demilitarized state on the West Bank. I doubt very much that either the Arabs or Jews will make that deal. As for Gaza - I'd like to give it back to the Egyptians and let them administer it but I doubt that they would want it. Sadat knew what he was doing when he did not include Gaza in the Israeli withdrawal :) Absolutely correct. Anwar Sadat didn't want it, and neither does Hosni Mubarak now. A future Muslim Brotherhood government might, but I doubt that Israel would then want to cede it. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jun 8 10:35:19 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by bmtlines on Tue Jun 8 09:33:28 2010. Good post. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Jun 8 10:39:12 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by Train Dude on Tue Jun 8 10:15:33 2010. Our policy under President Monroe was that it was the "manifest destiny" of the United States to conquer territory, coast-to-coast. It's known as the Monroe Doctrine, and it also reserves to countries in the Western Hemisphere all the lands within it. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Jun 8 10:49:09 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Jun 8 10:39:12 2010. That doesn't answer my question. Most territories claimed by American Indians remains in their hands. Now, if you want to donate any of your personal property based on guilt, i'm certain some tribe would be happy to annex it. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jun 8 10:55:07 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by Train Dude on Tue Jun 8 10:25:52 2010. He was elected Majority Whip just a few years later. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Jun 8 10:56:45 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jun 8 10:55:07 2010. Okay - different position but I see your point |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Jun 8 10:59:27 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jun 8 10:55:07 2010. GOP Senators didn't like a Leader, like Bill Frist, who was focused on running for President. And Trent Lott was, for the most part, a better leader than Dr. Frist. But Mr. Lott found out that he could never again be GOP leader, so he left to become a lobbyist. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Easy on Tue Jun 8 12:20:59 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by Train Dude on Tue Jun 8 10:49:09 2010. That's a somewhat flippant comment given the history. Did you know that there were 15-20 million Native Americans in the US when the Europeans first came and that within 80 years half of them were gone? Within 100 years after that 90% of them were gone. An entire civilization decimated by imperialism and disease. Even today 400 years later there are less than 3 million native americans. Less thna 20% of what there used to be. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Jun 8 12:30:13 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by Train Dude on Tue Jun 8 10:49:09 2010. "Most territories claimed by American Indians remains in their hands."And they live in poverty and some of the lands out West have no running water whatsoever since the government, federal or otherwise, is not required to provide the Indian territories which these basic living functions or even sewer connections. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Jun 8 12:44:09 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 7 19:34:31 2010. "I'm not the one being hounded...."Neither am I..... "Your insults are just so much hot air . . . " And your so-called "knowledge" is mostly....FULL-OF-IT..... |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jun 8 12:55:22 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by Easy on Mon Jun 7 22:36:18 2010. In what context could Thomas' comments not be construed as anything but hateful and anti-Semitic?Lott said nothing directly offensive, he simply praised a man the left hates, and THEY assumed that it was meant to be a confirmation by Lott that Thurmond's past policies were good. What the hell was he supposed to say? "Hey Strom, you suck! Happy birthday!" |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jun 8 12:56:58 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Jun 7 22:10:07 2010. Forced expulsion based on religion is not illegal? Immoral? |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Tue Jun 8 12:58:37 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jun 8 12:55:22 2010. The context of her heritage.As for Lott, that's different as his own party wanted him out of power for some time, and used his Thurmond comments as a convenient excuse to toss him out as Majority Leader (although he eventually became Majority Whip before long). |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Tue Jun 8 12:59:45 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by AMoreira81 on Tue Jun 8 12:58:37 2010. More specifically, the Golan Heights, which is disputed territory. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Jun 8 13:03:22 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jun 8 12:55:22 2010. "Lott said nothing directly offensive, he simply praised a man the left hates, and THEY assumed that it was meant to be a confirmation by Lott that Thurmond's past policies were good. What the hell was he supposed to say? "Hey Strom, you suck! Happy birthday!"You know something...ChrisR16...you just threw away your CREDITIBILTY and what was left of it on OT!... Strom Thurmond was a KNOWN RACIST....you know and I know...for you to say "the Left hates this man.." is WITHOUT REGARD to all career about total segregation of the USA....that this man was all about....which again points to the fact the again...you're a hypocratic to begin with....You call Hellen Thomas every nasty name in the book....but yet you think and agree it's OK for Lott to praise a racist man, Strum Thrumond. Whether your on the Left or the Right, no one should be praising Strum Thrumond. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Jun 8 16:40:15 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jun 8 12:55:22 2010. Lott said nothing directly offensive, he simply praised a man the left hates, and THEY assumed that it was meant to be a confirmation by Lott that Thurmond's past policies were good.Distortion. Lott specifically praised Thurmond's presidential candidacy. He could have ignored that and picked plenty of actually praiseworthy things that Thurmond has done. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Jun 8 16:49:17 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by Train Dude on Tue Jun 8 10:49:09 2010. Most territories claimed by American Indians remains in their hands.Huh? The Algonquins may have sold Manhattan for $24, but the Cherokees sure didn't sell North Carolina. Ditto many other tribes. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 8 21:06:17 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Jun 7 23:39:27 2010. What anti-American sentiments? |
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Re: Now Its Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 8 21:14:01 2010, in response to Re: Now Its Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires), posted by Mitch45 on Tue Jun 8 08:56:46 2010. No, it apparently wasn't clear in 1933, otherwise the Holocaust might not have happened. You just overreact to things that are not like that. |
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Re: Now Its Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires) |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jun 9 03:11:21 2010, in response to Re: Now Its Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 8 21:14:01 2010. Hope you're right. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 9 03:38:25 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Jun 8 10:39:12 2010. Then get the fuck out if you feel so strongly about occupying the land. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Jun 9 07:58:53 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by AlM on Tue Jun 8 16:49:17 2010. I certainly have none of their land. Do you? |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Easy on Wed Jun 9 09:04:53 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by Train Dude on Wed Jun 9 07:58:53 2010. I don't think that most Native Americans had the same sense of land ownership that we do in that they didn't believe that land could be owned. But nearly all of us occupy land where they used to live but no longer do. |
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Re: Now Its Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jun 9 12:10:36 2010, in response to Re: Now Its Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 8 21:14:01 2010. it apparently wasn't clear in 1933, otherwise the Holocaust might not have happenedNo, it was just as clear back then as well. The mindset of the "peace at all costs" segment of the left is what let things blow up to the proportions they did six years later. You just overreact to things that are not like that He's not overreacting, and things are like that. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jun 9 12:23:43 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jun 9 03:38:25 2010. I'd go back to the emerald isle, but then I'd have to worry about the Tuatha de Danaan coming back and trying to kick out the Celts and all . . . |
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Re: Now It's Even Worse (Re: Helenzbollah Thomas Retires) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jun 9 12:24:43 2010, in response to Re: Now Its Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires), posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jun 7 17:07:44 2010. The proof is all over the news, O Mindless One. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by R143 on Wed Jun 9 12:32:45 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Jun 8 10:39:12 2010. Why do you live in a contry you hate so much ?And we may as well have Mexico go back to Spain too , the Mexicans are occupying that land . How stupid . |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by R143 on Wed Jun 9 12:33:21 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Jun 8 12:30:13 2010. The government isn't required to do so . |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by R143 on Wed Jun 9 12:33:46 2010, in response to Helen Thomas Retires, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Jun 7 12:22:43 2010. Good to be gone with her . |
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Re: Now Its Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires) |
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Posted by R143 on Wed Jun 9 12:34:29 2010, in response to Re: Now Its Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires), posted by R30A on Mon Jun 7 15:21:28 2010. Take a walk in other people's shoes before condemning them . |
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Re: Now Its Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires) |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jun 9 12:46:41 2010, in response to Re: Now Its Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires), posted by R30A on Mon Jun 7 15:21:28 2010. Well, Jews tried the denial route once before and that didn't work out very well.If you think I'm like McCarthy, don't read my posts. |
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jun 9 12:50:35 2010, in response to Re: Helen Thomas Retires, posted by R143 on Wed Jun 9 12:32:45 2010. Yup . . . let the Aztecs go back to human sacrifice and all . . . |
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Re: Now It's Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jun 9 12:54:56 2010, in response to Re: Now Its Even Worse (Re: Helen Thomas Retires), posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jun 9 12:46:41 2010. Every time the left says "McCarthy", the more validity McCarthy gains. |
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