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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 19:33:44 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 19:22:56 2014. I have provided evidence: That the United States and Canada (among others) are both unable to support many millions more people and that doing so would lower the quality of life of those already there.As for how we divide our world, the whole point of keeping the status quo is to allow the people of each country to keep the value of the economy that they've built without diluting it through overpopulation. If the entire world had a similar quality of life, then your utopian dreams of unlimited migration would be reasonable. |
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Posted by dand124 on Mon Apr 14 19:35:20 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 19:33:44 2014. If the entire world had a similar quality of life, then your utopian dreams of unlimited migration would be reasonable.that's why Europe is able to have unrestricted migration within it's boarders. |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 14 19:42:06 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:47:54 2014. You agreed that it's not racist to believe Zimmerman was justified in killing Martin.Bad language skills on your part. One can agree with the verdict and yet not believe that Zimmerman was justified in killing Martin. And even if one believes that Zimmerman was justified in killing Martin, one need not believe that Zimmerman killed Martin because he was black. |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Apr 14 19:54:57 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 19:05:06 2014. You'll end up attracting immigrants who only come to live off welfare benefits. While living on welfare tends to be unideal, to many other people in the developing world, first world welfare benefits constitute high quality living.FWIW, I saw this first hand with Haitian immigrants who went to Canada in the 1970s and 1980s. It's a bit of a sore point with Haitians in the US who feel that the Haitians in Canada are a bit of an embarrassment, especially since they're in a place with even less racism... |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 21:11:23 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 15:57:20 2014. No, I determine that someone is a racist because they think they think a society established by white people is a "country" whose laws have to be obeyed, but the society that those white people forcibly displaced doesn't count at all.<\i>And you are completely absurd. Why is country in quotes? You are so out there that believe we arent a country? So you are saying our whole country is an illegitimate country with no right to a rule of law.i If you're not a racist then answer this: Why do people who want to live in North America today need permission from the people already living on the continent, Because "north america" is not a country. ( just as africa isnt as YOU pointed out. People jn one African coubtry cant just move at will to another without rule of law eitherr. There are several individual countries on the north american continent. Canadians can't just take up residency here at will nor can Mexicans. They both have to go through the rule of law. It gas nothing to do with race as much as you want to make it about race. Ah, it doesn't matter what race you are— if you're not part of this race, you aren't allowed to live here. Totally not racist. Who is saying certain races can't be here? The same law applies to ANYONE coming here. Why should one group have ant extra privledge than others? You are saying one country has a right to come here without documentation and rule of law but others can? So you're arguing that might makes right? Not racist, I admit, but also not much of an improvement. So you are saying the British didn't win the war with the Dutch? You are saying the Americans didn't win the war with the British? The same thing with borders happened in Europe either after centuries of wars? And everywhere in the world. None of the current borders are legitimate borders with rule of law for each individual country? How out there does this make you sound. No, I think land doesn't "belong" to specific races period. And who is saying it does? The United States is a country of all races. Who is excluded from it? A naturalized legal former Mexican citizen is just as much US citizen as anyone else. You keep consistently missing the point. The point is this: Name a city. It could be any city in any country. Name any six people who want to move to that city. Do they all have the same right to move to that city or do some need special permission while others don't? If so, why? On what basis? ???? Anyone from any country can apply to immigrate to the US. We have a process. I gave you a link to that process to l;egally enter...legally. why should people who don't follow that process cut in front? I do. You do. If you think otherwise, then explain exactly what the "process to come here" is and show that you went through it. I am a naturally born citizen. I don't have to go through immigration. That is the rule of law. A black person born here is equally a natural born cituzwn . And anyone else. A nauralized citizen is one that legally came as an alien....and went through naturalization to become a citizen. Anyone can do that too if they came from another country. What don't you understand about that? |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 21:27:47 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by AlM on Mon Apr 14 19:42:06 2014. One can agree with the verdict and yet not believe that Zimmerman was justified in killing Martin.It's possible to agree that the jury was technically justified in reaching that verdict under the law (due to half-assed prosecution, for example), but saying "I agree with the verdict" generally implies you believe the verdict was justified by the facts of the case, not just technically required by the law. And even if one believes that Zimmerman was justified in killing Martin, one need not believe that Zimmerman killed Martin because he was black. You can believe that Zimmerman didn't kill Martin because he was black. You'd be wrong, but you can still believe it. |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 21:27:51 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Apr 14 19:54:57 2014. Optimal implementation of a welfare state implies that every country has one— no need to immigrate for that.I admit that a welfare state is just one of many policies that doesn't work if it's not properly implemented. Although it's perhaps interesting that you use Haiti as an example— Haiti is a nation founded by people who were enslaved by France, successfully rebelled, and were then forced to pay reparations to France for refusing to work for free. So at minimum, every Haitian would have the right to move to France regardless of its effect on the French welfare state. |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 21:27:53 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by dand124 on Mon Apr 14 19:35:20 2014. Within its boarders? What, people are traveling without restriction between the people who live in Europe? |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 21:27:56 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 19:33:44 2014. I have provided evidence: That the United States and Canada (among others) are both unable to support many millions more people and that doing so would lower the quality of life of those already there.(a) You've asserted as much, but offered no obvious reason as to why this would be true. (b) Even if it were true, the lower quality of life for the people currently in America would be balanced by the greater quality of life for the new immigrants— the net gain would be positive. As for how we divide our world, the whole point of keeping the status quo is to allow the people of each country to keep the value of the economy that they've built without diluting it through overpopulation. If the entire world had a similar quality of life, then your utopian dreams of unlimited migration would be reasonable. The problem here is that a substantial reason for the differing quality of life is malicious action on the part of the "higher-quality" nations. Countries across Europe built their infrastructure and industrial base by plundering countries across Africa and Asia; America has installed brutal dictatorships that destroyed the infrastructure and economies of countries all through South and Central America to increase the profits of a few corporations. Jamaica has a lower quality of life than Britain because Britain enslaved Jamaicans and plundered their country. Guatemala has a lower quality of life than America because America overthrew their government and wrecked their economy to save the United Fruit Company from a small property tax. Iran has a lower quality of life than either because America and Britain overthrew their government and wrecked their economy so that a British company could maintain control over Iran's oil. Among many other examples. So it seems to me that (most) nations with high quality of life have an affirmative obligation to build up the nations with low quality of life until the "utopian" dream of equality is reached— or to allow the residents of those nations to come to ours to take advantage of the resources that are rightfully "theirs" anyway. |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 21:27:58 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 19:29:32 2014. Zimmerman did.Thank you for agreeing. Now we can end this pointless bickering. |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 21:28:06 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by dand124 on Mon Apr 14 19:25:55 2014. I didn't pay for most of the infrastructure of this country; it was there before I was born.If you live in a country, you pay taxes to maintain its infrastructure; if you want to move to another country, you use their infrastructure and pay taxes to them. Although if you want to talk about paying, here's a question for you— I can give you a list of countries whose infrastructure America destroyed (such as, for example, Iraq). Since we destroyed the infrastructure they built, don't we have a responsibility to pay for theirs or let their people come here and use ours? |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 21:28:09 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 19:25:28 2014. How so? |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 21:28:16 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 21:11:23 2014. Your posts are incoherent at the best of times; I really can't be bothered to wade through that much italic.Please fix your first </i> and repost. |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 21:30:31 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 15:57:20 2014. Why, precisely, do I have the right to move to Hawaii but someone with non-US ancestry doesn't? That's the question you have consistently failed to answer. Is that too hard for you to understand?I answered it. Its a US state. It has been since the late 50s. So you do not know your 50 states or US territories? They usually teach that in grammar school. Hawaii is a US state. I can't just move to St Marten at free will without a legal process but a Dutch person can. U t means you think that Russians need special dispensation to get rights that are automatic for other races. ????????? Russian isn't a race. Any non US person has to apply for a visa then can become a legal alien....then can either reman that or naturalize for citizenship. Doesn't matter your race or nation of origin. OK, so fill it in with "United States." If you are a US citizen you can't just immigrate to another country either without following that country's immigration process either. One generation ago, perhaps even within your lifetime, the law of the United States declared black people to be inherently inferior. Are you seriously trying to claim that United States law is non-racist by definition? If the law says that your right to live and work depends on your race, then the law is racist. There is no law that states you can only be a certain race to live here. And I don't know whatblack laws of the past have to do with this. They were changed years ago. You're the one who brought race into the argument, dumbass. The entire argument is about whether your right to live and work in a particular town should be contingent on your ancestry, and last time I checked, I'm the one claiming it shouldn't. And dumbass....when does citizenship have to do with race? Anyone can become a US citizenby pprocess of law. Y ou brought race into it. Nothing to do with race. |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 21:32:22 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 15:57:20 2014. Didn't I just spend the last several posts explaining to you that there's more to race than colour?And you mean color....this isn't the United Kingdom. And who is talking about "color"? Immigration has nothing to do with it. |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 21:33:23 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 21:11:23 2014. Fuck you asshole |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 21:35:49 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 21:28:16 2014. Fuck you asshole. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 21:42:59 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 21:28:16 2014. No, I determine that someone is a racist because they think they think a society established by white people is a "country" whose laws have to be obeyed, but the society that those white people forcibly displaced doesn't count at all. And you are completely absurd. Why is country in quotes? You are so out there that believe we arent a country? So you are saying our whole country is an illegitimate country with no right to a rule of law. If you're not a racist then answer this: Why do people who want to live in North America today need permission from the people already living on the continent, Because "north america" is not a country. ( just as africa isnt as YOU pointed out. People jn one African coubtry cant just move at will to another without rule of law eitherr. There are several individual countries on the north american continent. Canadians can't just take up residency here at will nor can Mexicans. They both have to go through the rule of law. It gas nothing to do with race as much as you want to make it about race. Ah, it doesn't matter what race you are— if you're not part of this race, you aren't allowed to live here. Totally not racist. Who is saying certain races can't be here? The same law applies to ANYONE coming here. Why should one group have ant extra privledge than others? You are saying one country has a right to come here without documentation and rule of law but others can? So you're arguing that might makes right? Not racist, I admit, but also not much of an improvement. So you are saying the British didn't win the war with the Dutch? You are saying the Americans didn't win the war with the British? The same thing with borders happened in Europe either after centuries of wars? And everywhere in the world. None of the current borders are legitimate borders with rule of law for each individual country? How out there does this make you sound. No, I think land doesn't "belong" to specific races period. And who is saying it does? The United States is a country of all races. Who is excluded from it? A naturalized legal former Mexican citizen is just as much US citizen as anyone else. You keep consistently missing the point. The point is this: Name a city. It could be any city in any country. Name any six people who want to move to that city. Do they all have the same right to move to that city or do some need special permission while others don't? If so, why? On what basis? ???? Anyone from any country can apply to immigrate to the US. We have a process. I gave you a link to that process to l;egally enter...legally. why should people who don't follow that process cut in front? I do. You do. If you think otherwise, then explain exactly what the "process to come here" is and show that you went through it. I am a naturally born citizen. I don't have to go through immigration. That is the rule of law. A black person born here is equally a natural born cituzwn . And anyone else. A nauralized citizen is one that legally came as an alien....and went through naturalization to become a citizen. Anyone can do that too if they came from another country. What don't you understand about that? |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 21:59:49 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 16:34:25 2014. When you moved from where?From my previous apartment Are you going to talk nonsense or have an adult conversation on immigration? Why do you need to know my race to know whether I have a "right" to live here? Race has nothing to do with immigration. See, this is the crux of the argument. You seem to claim that a person's fundamental rights to olive and work are contingent on the accident of his birth. You have yet to provide any justification for this belief, despite my repeated requests. Its called a country. That is the rule of law. Its actually pretty lenient compared to most other country's laws on immigration. I never got a green card, I never got a visa, I never applied for any permission to live in New York from anyone, and the idea that the circumstances of my birth should convey special privileges is absurd. Its not absurd at all. You don't need a visa or green card as natural born citizen. So you believe in anarchy and open borders. And what country has that? There is no paperwork that says I'm "allowed" to be here independent of that which records my birth. Your birth certificate is all you need. In Mexico....its all a Mexican citizen needs too. But you couldn't legally live there with just that. In Canada...that's all a Canadian citizen needs too...but you couldn't legally live there with that So either I'm "illegal" or you're a bigot. Lol....so I am a bigot for explaining the United States law too you. And you wonder why people think you are a moron? |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 22:02:13 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 16:03:02 2014. Its you that is deliberately thick. |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 22:30:38 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 22:02:13 2014. The question wasn't directed at you, but you're free to take a stab at it if you so choose.I'm afraid, though, that what you said isn't actually a valid response. |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 22:30:40 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 21:59:49 2014. Are you going to talk nonsense or have an adult conversation on immigration?You're the one who keeps spewing irrelevant gibberish. What does it matter where I moved from? Race has nothing to do with immigration. Ancestry. Call it whatever you like. Its called a country. That is the rule of law. I've explained before that this is irrelevant nonsense. Unless you want to defend every law ever written, then what the law currently says is irrelevant to what the law should say. Its actually pretty lenient compared to most other country's laws on immigration. That it could be worse doesn't mean it's fine as it is. Its not absurd at all. You don't need a visa or green card as natural born citizen. It's a double standard which is inherently absurd. So you believe in anarchy and open borders. And you believe in dictatorship and closed borders. See how easy it is to tape a completely irrelevant claim onto an unrelated idea? If you want to equivocate "open borders" with "anarchy" then you had better write a fucking dissertation to justify that claim. And what country has that? Circa 1500, what country had democracy? Your birth certificate is all you need. If a birth certificate is enough for me to live here, why isn't it enough for a Mexican or a Canadian? Lol....so I am a bigot for explaining the United States law too you. And you wonder why people think you are a moron? Once again, the most simple of points eludes you. You are a bigot for claiming it is justified (not merely "legal" but actually a right) for your ability to live and work in the city of your choice to be determined by your ancestry. You have yet to provide any meaningful response to that; you just spew out buzzwords like "rule of law" without actually using them in any meaningful context. And you wonder why people think you're a moron? |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 22:30:43 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 21:42:59 2014. And you are completely absurd.I can't help but notice that this isn't actually an argument. Why is country in quotes? To indicate that your use of the term differs from the standard use. You declare that one society is a country but another is not, so I put "country" in quotes to indicate that you have arbitrarily chosen to exclude one particular society from that definition for reasons you have not adequately explained. Because "north america" is not a country. I used it as a catchall term for several countries due to the arbitrary nature of borders. The distinction between the United States and Canada did not exist prior to the establishment of those nations by European colonists, so it would be incorrect to say, for example, that the initial European settlers did not get permission from the Canadians prior to settling in what is now Quebec. For the sake of this example, we'll refer to a fairly arbitrary chunk of the east coast of North America as "Land." Any territory under the same government as that chunk is also part of "Land." You claimed that the European immigrants to Land did not need permission from the existing inhabitants of Land before they arrived, but the current immigrants to Land need permission from the current inhabitants. I asked why that was the case; you have consistently failed to provide an answer. Who is saying certain races can't be here? The same law applies to ANYONE coming here. That's plainly untrue. The law you keep invoking to declare people "illegal" plainly didn't apply to me when I came here, and I doubt it applied to you either. Why should one group have ant extra privledge than others? Good question. In fact that's a very good question. In fact, it's the question I've kept asking and you kept dodging. You are saying one country has a right to come here without documentation and rule of law but others can? I'm saying that some people have a "right" to come here and others don't for reasons entirely unrelated to their lives, actions, or character. Blathering about "documentation" and "rule of law" is just noise— what the law says is irrelevant to the question of whether the law is right. So you are saying the British didn't win the war with the Dutch? You are saying the Americans didn't win the war with the British? I'm saying that taking something by force does not make you its legitimate owner, and that "let's fight for it" is bad policy in pretty much any situation. And who is saying it does? The United States is a country of all races. Who is excluded from it? Anyone who is not born in its territory or descended from people who were— and the people who whine about "illegal" immigration generally claim that the former is illegitimate in the absence of the latter. If you want to say that's "ancestry" rather than "race" then knock yourself out— if we can agree that it's bigotry, I'll let you call it anything you like. A naturalized legal former Mexican citizen is just as much US citizen as anyone else. Yes, a person of Mexican ancestry who earns US citizenship by jumping through the many hoops required to get special dispensation to live here is considered fully equal to a person of American ancestry who earns US citizenship by being born. The problem is that the accident of your ancestry determines whether the right to live in New York is a birthright or something that requires special permission. This is wrong. I've been trying to explain that to you, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in. Anyone from any country can apply to immigrate to the US. We have a process. No, we have two processes— an easy one for me and a difficult one for thee. Double standards like that are wrong. I gave you a link to that process to l;egally enter...legally. why should people who don't follow that process cut in front? I didn't follow that process. Did you? I am a naturally born citizen. I don't have to go through immigration. Why not? Why, precisely, is the right to live in New York a birthright for you but something that has to be earned for everyone else? That is the rule of law. You can stop saying this nonsense right now. We're arguing about human rights and what the law should say. Unless you want to defend every law ever written, then what the law does say is completely irrelevant to those topics. A black person born here is equally a natural born cituzwn . And anyone else. A nauralized citizen is one that legally came as an alien....and went through naturalization to become a citizen. Yes, that's what I've said repeatedly. Some people are declared "natural born" citizens entitled to live here by birthright. Some people are required to earn the right to come here. The determination is made by birth lottery. This double standard is wrong, and you have failed to provide any argument to the contrary. Anyone can do that too if they came from another country. In practice, they can't. I know for a fact that I would never be able to meet the exacting standards for an American immigration visa and I doubt you would either. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 22:30:45 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 21:30:31 2014. I answered it.No, you banged on about how it's a US state without explaining why my ancestry should determine whether I have the right to live there. ????????? Russian isn't a race. It's an inborn trait which you are holding up as the determining factor for basic rights. I don't care what you call it. If you are a US citizen you can't just immigrate to another country... No, not quite. You claimed there's a process one has to go through to live in the United States, regardless of what country your ancestors are from, so I asked you what that process might be for people whose ancestors are from the United States. There is no law that states you can only be a certain race to live here. There are laws that state you must have certain ancestry to be here. If you don't want to call that "race," it doesn't really matter. It's still wrong. And I don't know whatblack laws of the past have to do with this. They were changed years ago. You argued that US law is non-racist by definition, so I cited them as a counterexample. And dumbass....when does citizenship have to do with race? Fine. Say "ancestry" instead of race. It really doesn't matter. Anyone can become a US citizenby pprocess of law. OK. Bob wants to be a US citizen. What is the process of law by which Bob becomes a US citizen? |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 22:30:48 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 21:33:23 2014. You think you're an asshole?Glad you've finally noticed. |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 22:30:50 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 21:32:22 2014. And you mean color....this isn't the United Kingdom.I mean "colour." It's not my fault if you misspell it. And who is talking about "color"? I don't know. You keep bringing it up. |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Apr 14 23:03:09 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 21:27:51 2014. "Optimal implementation of a welfare state implies that every country has one"My grandmother's home care attendant came from Trinidad where they have a limited welfare state with something equivalent to our Social Security. She chooses to come to the States in order to collect from our Social Security for her retirement and supplement her earnings in Trinidad. Even if every country manages to have a welfare state, open borders means that people will leave poor countries to go countries that offer more welfare benefits. So why collect $200 a month in Haiti when you collect $1000 in Miami, and use the surplus to send back to everybody else in Haiti? "So at minimum, every Haitian would have the right to move to France regardless of its effect on the French welfare state. " Monsieur Blanc, I'd much rather have the money that was paid given back. Otherwise, the only thing the French owe us is recognition of what they did to us, and recognition of our independence. |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 23:36:15 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Apr 14 23:03:09 2014. Even if every country manages to have a welfare state, open borders means that people will leave poor countries to go countries that offer more welfare benefits.Not necessarily. We don't see a massive exodus of people from poor states to states with more welfare benefits within America. ...and use the surplus to send back to everybody else in Haiti? This sounds like the standard course of action for the one immigrant who manages to get through a mostly-closed border and needs to support family in the old country that can't get through the border with him. Monsieur Blanc, I'd much rather have the money that was paid given back. I said at minimum. Baby steps— so far, we don't have anything at all. Otherwise, the only thing the French owe us is recognition of what they did to us... Maybe this is just my own peculiarity but I can't help but find it offensive when a person/country/entity/etc offers "recognition" for a historical wrong without making any effort to actually make it right. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Apr 15 00:23:23 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 23:36:15 2014. "We don't see a massive exodus of people from poor states to states with more welfare benefits within America."Primarily because there isn't much value in doing that. It doesn't make sense to move to a state in the US with generous welfare since most generous welfare states tend not to offer that much more, and the cost of living is much higher. "Maybe this is just my own peculiarity but I can't help but find it offensive when a person/country/entity/etc offers "recognition" for a historical wrong without making any effort to actually make it right. " That's the thing. Just dumping the money on Haiti doesn't magically work because Haiti is corrupt and has poor governance, and letting Haitians leave doesn't fix Haiti. None of these things somehow fixes the status quo to make things equal, and doing so would require the country to effectively give up it's independence. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by DAnD124 on Tue Apr 15 00:27:26 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Apr 15 00:23:23 2014. That's the thing. Just dumping the money on Haiti doesn't magically work because Haiti is corrupt and has poor governance, and letting Haitians leave doesn't fix Haiti. None of these things somehow fixes the status quo to make things equal, and doing so would require the country to effectively give up it's independence.there are only ten million people in Haiti these no reason other countries couldn't take them all in. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 00:36:35 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Apr 15 00:23:23 2014. Primarily because there isn't much value in doing that. It doesn't make sense to move to a state in the US with generous welfare since most generous welfare states tend not to offer that much more, and the cost of living is much higher.The cost of living in Miami is certainly higher than in Haiti. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Apr 15 02:59:34 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 21:27:47 2014. But you were concluding that people are racist because they say these things, when now you are simply saying that either it's a matter of phrasing things differently from how you would phrase them, or that they are coming to what in your opinion is an incorrect conclusion.That shows very bad logic on your part. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 03:02:34 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by AlM on Tue Apr 15 02:59:34 2014. Denying the commonly understood meaning of words and phrases, or denying obvious facts shows bad logic on your part, not mine. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 03:04:19 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by dand124 on Mon Apr 14 19:08:14 2014. A suggestion not borne out by our experience within the US. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Apr 15 03:12:29 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 00:36:35 2014. The cost of living in Miami is certainly higher than in Haiti.Of course, but you're likely to get more money from going on government benefits in Florida than in Haiti. Plus, the worst apartments that Section 8 would pay for are still better than what a sizable chunk of the Haitian population would call home. The only downside is the lack of a maid, but in the US we have cars, laundromats, and frozen food. And FWIW, I know of a few Haitians that have made money buying stuff here in the States and selling in Haiti at a profit, so the lower cost of living is a bit of a myth since everything "back home" is imported including food. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 03:14:15 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Apr 14 14:35:03 2014. Many of the jobs that are being discussed are jobs that are in the United States and have little chance of being sent overseas. We can't export janitors, landscapers, nannies, or busboys to Bangladesh.Plenty of jobs are shipped to Bangladesh, which creates more competition for the jobs that can't be exported. While travelling to Hawaii from New York means that you're still within the boundaries of the United States, the simple drive to a city 350 miles away requires crossing the frontiers into a different country... A point that has been repeatedly asserted, but never justified. If I travel to Hawaii, I'm in a different state. I've crossed an arbitrary political line of some sort. Why should that be different from any other? If a landowner outside of Montreal is willing to sell to me and an employer in Montreal is willing to hire me, why should someone who can pay less for the land and is less qualified for the job be more entitled to it than me simply by virtue of being born? |
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Re: "Conservative" Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 15 04:28:16 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 14 21:42:59 2014. Repetition seems to imply belief, doesn't it? Imagine bingbong believing everything she spews. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 05:15:01 2014, in response to Re: "Conservative" Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Apr 15 04:28:16 2014. The only person who clearly doesn't believe what they say is you, and that's only because if you did believe everything you said, you'd probably die of carbon monoxide poisoning after declaring that oxygen is a communist plot.Also, I'm amused at your inability to use double quote marks. Apparently those are a communist plot too. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Apr 15 06:23:07 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 22:30:50 2014. You are misspelling it....in American English that's not how you spell color. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Apr 15 06:29:32 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 22:30:43 2014. There's no sense arguing with your psycho rant as you believe actual borders of nations are arbitrary...and that the United States is an illegitimate country with no right to enforce its law. You are completely unreasonsble . Have fum. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Apr 15 06:29:59 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 22:30:48 2014. Get a life. Freak. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Apr 15 06:33:28 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 22:30:40 2014. At least anyone reading your responses can see how nuts you are and completely unreasonable. You basically believe the United States is an illegitamite country. You are more nuts than originally thought. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Apr 15 06:37:02 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 18:56:24 2014. Exactly. And his posts in this thread more than prove how he's completely unreasonable and why his posts aren't worth the time to read. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Apr 15 06:37:50 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 14 18:59:56 2014. Yes. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Apr 15 06:40:45 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 03:02:34 2014. You are the one who got beat on that one. Even if they wasted time trying to reason with uou |
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Nilogic |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Apr 15 08:50:17 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 21:27:47 2014. 1. If I believed that the Zimmerman verdict was technically correct but I disapproved of Zimmerman's actions, I would never say (a) the verdict was correct without concurrently saying (b) but I disapprove (or stronger) of his actions.2. I expect and assume that everyone else has similar langauge and thought patterns to me. 3. So if someone else says (a) without (b) it means they approve of Zimmerman's actions. 4. Anyone who approves of Zimmerman's actions is a racist. 5. Spider-Pig said (a) without (b). 6. Spider-Pig is a racist. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Tue Apr 15 08:53:12 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Edwards! on Mon Apr 14 19:19:11 2014. AND WHEN YOU call me being "racist" is really ME TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT YOU. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Apr 15 12:13:56 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 22:30:45 2014. No, you banged on about how it's a US state without explaining why my ancestry should determine whether I have the right to live there.MY ancestry and your ancestry or anyone elses has nothing to do with it. You freak. Since you already consider the United States government illegitimate, as well as it's 50 states, you are an ultimate extremist and this conversation isn't worth perusing with you. No, not quite. You claimed there's a process one has to go through to live in the United States, regardless of what country your ancestors are from, so I asked you what that process might be for people whose ancestors are from the United States. I already linked TWO sites on what you have to do to move to the United States, but since you consider the US government legitimate, it isn't worth perusing further with you. There are laws that state you must have certain ancestry to be here. If you don't want to call that "race," it doesn't really matter. It's still wrong. They do not. ANY ancestry can become a citizen if they follow the process. But since you consider the US government illegitimate, it isn't worth perusing with an extremist as yourself. u argued that US law is non-racist by definition, so I cited them as a counterexample. But it is not, and you did not. But since you consider the US government illegitimate, it isn't worth perusing with an extremist as yourself. Fine. Say "ancestry" instead of race. It really doesn't matter. And it doesn't, as any ancestry, or race can become a citizen of the US if they follow the process if they come from another country. But since you consider the US government illegitimate, it isn't worth perusing with an extremist as yourself. OK. Bob wants to be a US citizen. What is the process of law by which Bob becomes a US citizen? I already provided two links. Read them. But since you consider the US government illegitimate, it isn't worth perusing with an extremist as yourself. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Apr 15 12:23:37 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 22:30:40 2014. If a birth certificate is enough for me to live here, why isn't it enough for a Mexican or a Canadian?To live in Canada or Mexica, yes. A United States Birth Certificate alone won't allow you to live in either of those countries either without proper naturalization. You are a bigot for claiming it is justified (not merely "legal" but actually a right) for your ability to live and work in the city of your choice to be determined by your ancestry. You have yet to provide any meaningful response to that; you just spew out buzzwords like "rule of law" without actually using them in any meaningful context. And you wonder why people think you're a moron? And you can't live in any other country without their proper documentation either. It's not bigoted to explain US immigration law to an extremist that thinks the US government is illegitimate. Circa 1500, what country had democracy? And what difference does that make. Answer the question of which country lets you just move in without documentation. And you believe in dictatorship and closed borders. The United states, which you consider an illegitimate government is not a dictatorship. And no, we don't have closed borders. You just follow the procedure for entrance and naturalization if you chose, and you are in. If you want to equivocate "open borders" with "anarchy" then you had better write a fucking dissertation to justify that claim. The US and every other country has a procedure to enter and live in their country. You can read the US's procedure or any other country's procedure (I am sure they are available online) to know how to do so. That's more than justification for someone who thinks the US (and every other government and their borders are illegitimate. It's not bigoted to follow the rule of law of the country you are a part of, and there is not inherent right to live wherever you want. |
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Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Apr 15 12:24:37 2014, in response to Re: Conservative Jeb Bush Notices Racism Is Bad, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 22:30:38 2014. And you certainly dont have any valid points, as anyone here can see....you are an extremist. And a freak besides. |
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