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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 17:34:04 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jun 7 17:14:39 2011. I would have to look at my old maps, but it did. |
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| (235526) | |
Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 17:35:16 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jun 7 17:15:51 2011. But the route was designed to serve the area it currently serves. On Brielle Ave, it serves NONE of that area, because it is going through a park. |
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| (235527) | |
Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jun 7 17:37:41 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 17:21:32 2011. Part of the reason the ridership isn't there for limited-stop service is because the ferry is the biggest destination, but it runs every 30 minutes. One solution may be to decrease the frequencies to every 20 minutes off-peak.Another solution is to have the S48 run every 15 minutes off-peak (rather than every 12 minutes), and the S98 could run every 15 minutes, and go from St. George to Newark Airport (or at least Elizabeth). That way, Forest Avenue gets additional riders going to/from New Jersey, which should be enough to sustain these high frequencies. Another advantage is that, some posters worried that traffic over the Goethals Bridge could make any route to NJ unreliable. This way, you have the S48 as the more reliable non-NJ route, and the S98 as the service to NJ that provides additional frequency along Forest Avenue, which is a pretty busy corridor. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jun 7 17:39:53 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 17:35:16 2011. It would travel via Manor Road->Brielle Avenue->Bradley Avenue->Harold Street. It wouldn't travel through the Greenbelt. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jun 7 17:40:41 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 17:27:34 2011. Again, the Todt Hill houses are 1/2 of a mile from Victory Blvd, where they can get any bus to the ferry, and the 61 to the mall.Making people from a development that's proven it needs better transit service and can get better service at no additional cost walk 1/2 mile so a bus can duplicate 2 other routes for an additional 1/2 mile is unacceptable and is in fact the opposite of efficiently serving as many people as possible. No, those aren't the closet places for them either, ESPECIALLY if they're traveling by bus. How do you know what their actual destination is? Did you ask them when they got off the bus? When you see people board the bus with carts and get off at the stop where the supermarket is, then I think it's safe to assume that they're going to the supermarket, I think the same principle can apply when a man wearing a pizzeria's shirt gets off where the pizzeria is, and etc. And those residents aren't nearly as transit dependent as you think they are. How do you know that? |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 18:20:27 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jun 7 17:37:41 2011. Forget service to NJ that's unnecessary.You've identified the problem with Staten Island transit- everything is tied to the ferry. Break that tie, you may be able to make some improvements. Ps- going from 30 minute headways to 20 minute headways is an increase in frequency, not a decrease...it's an increase in service. I knew what you meant in any case, but some may not notice. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 18:22:37 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jun 7 17:39:53 2011. Just to serve the school? That doesn't make sense for a full-time route, especially when you don't need to serve it all day like that. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jun 7 18:24:41 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 18:22:37 2011. That area is kind of hilly, so what ever residents are in the immediate area would be saved from having to walk along that hill. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 18:27:24 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jun 7 17:40:41 2011. The large and full parking areas demonstrate it.You're inconveniencing the many to service the few. Public transit isn't designed to make sure that the 10 people a day who will go from point F to point Y can do so with a one seat ride; it's designed so 1000 people can go from point A to point B, point C, or point D in the most efficient way possible. |
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| (235544) | |
Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 18:28:29 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jun 7 18:24:41 2011. Public transit isn't designed to make sure that the 10 people a day who will go from point F to point Y can do so with a one seat ride; it's designed so 1000 people can go from point A to point B, point C, or point D in the most efficient way possible. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jun 7 18:40:13 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 18:27:24 2011. The large and full parking areas demonstrate it.That's not really a good indicator, lots of people have cars but choose to ride public transit because it's more convenient for them in certain ways, and I don't see why this service would be any different. People usually prefer to take public transit over driving in certain situations for financial reasons, and I think it's safe to assume that a lot of people who live in a public housing development are more financially conscious. You're inconveniencing the many to service the few. Public transit isn't designed to make sure that the 10 people a day who will go from point F to point Y can do so with a one seat ride; it's designed so 1000 people can go from point A to point B, point C, or point D in the most efficient way possible. Factoring in dwell times, it would only add 3 minutes at most to the trip, and it would finally provide the service that the housing development has been asking for and deserves instead of duplicating two other routes for an extra 1/2 mile like it does currently. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 19:42:31 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jun 7 18:40:13 2011. They won't take transit for shopping or leisure trips if they have a car.Rerouting the bus as you suggest will remove the direct to the ferry and mall service that already exists. And since I JUST walked it, it takes all of 6 minutes to walk from Victory Blvd to the Todt Hill Houses. Not worth it logically, and from a financial standpoint, illogical. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jun 7 19:51:07 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 19:42:31 2011. They won't take transit for shopping or leisure trips if they have a car.I don't think so, if Hylan Boulevard passengers take the bus to go shopping, then I don't have any doubts that the less wealthier Todt Hill houses passengers would. Rerouting the bus as you suggest will remove the direct to the ferry and mall service that already exists. And since I JUST walked it, it takes all of 6 minutes to walk from Victory Blvd to the Todt Hill Houses. Not worth it logically, and from a financial standpoint, illogical. The few passengers that would lose their service would have to walk around 5 minutes max, and it's in the entire area's best interest. Bradley Avenue riders won't fight against the cost-neutral rerouting as hard as the Todt Hill Houses and business owners along Manor Road will fight for it. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 20:29:56 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jun 7 11:08:16 2011. Which is why the S61/91 should be left as is. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jun 7 20:32:34 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 20:29:56 2011. It should continue to serve the busiest stops along Bradley Avenue at Harold and Holden, but serve Manor north of that. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 20:36:37 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Tue Jun 7 11:22:06 2011. Which is why the S54 should operate via the SI Mall. As part of this, weekend service would be restored, albeit operate with a shorter span. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 20:40:48 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jun 7 17:07:06 2011. The S79 started serving Brooklyn in September 1992. And, yes, this coincided with the ridership boom, but not to the extent the TA expected. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 20:43:38 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 20:40:48 2011. There was a lot of latent ridership out there, which Operations Planning continually refuses to acknowledge. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 20:47:43 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 18:28:29 2011. All the more reasons the S54 should serve SI Mall, with weekend service restored at lower levels. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Tue Jun 7 20:49:08 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 17:21:32 2011. I'm inclined to believe that you currently do not ride the SI local buses often, is that true? Off-peak limited service would be a welcome amenity for Staten Islanders, and Staten Island as a whole as it is and has been for the last few years, the fastest growing county in NY State. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Tue Jun 7 20:57:09 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 17:32:40 2011. Staten Island wasn't planned around transit dependance; it was designed around highways that were never completed. It's MEANT to be a car-dependent suburb within the city. People don't move here because it's convenient; they move here to get away from the relatively cramped conditions in the other boros.That's nice to assume but unfortunately for you that is not that case as Staten Island is actually very transit-dependent and it needs more service to match those levels. In the most recent presentation & study on the North Shore Waterfront, they mentioned that there is a great need for MORE limited service on the routes. I can pull it up if you like. |
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| (235575) | |
Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 20:57:59 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jun 7 12:34:08 2011. Y'all are forgetting one thing: the S61 does not operate during the AM peak to St. George, and OP, correctly in this case, refuses to change it. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Tue Jun 7 20:59:10 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jun 7 17:14:39 2011. Before the MTA got into "service-cuts mode" around the time that the recession was a big deal. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Tue Jun 7 21:02:21 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jun 7 17:32:04 2011. I expect the S96 to be crowded but in my experiences the limited buses are very timely and predictable. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 21:04:23 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Tue Jun 7 12:17:03 2011. Unfortunately, Todt Hill is not dense enough to justify any local bus service changes. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Tue Jun 7 21:07:55 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 18:20:27 2011. I agree, but the tie does not have to be broken as all the local bus routes have plenty of room to expand. Staten Island hasn't had any major form of service addition in years and it has not gone unnoticed in the many North Shore waterfront and Rail line studies. They frequently call for more limited service the same way that I am, as the ridership is there. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Tue Jun 7 21:10:13 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 21:04:23 2011. I didn't call for any changes to the S54 in my version of the map, I was simply addressing those that think it is a necessity. I would not be one to complain if the S61 or S91 ran up Manor Rd but there are many factors involved that the MTA themselves would have to address and that's why it's better as-is. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jun 7 21:17:31 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 21:04:23 2011. Todt Hill isn't but the Todt Hill houses (which I believe are on the edge of Todt Hill anyway) are, and there's more ridership potential at Manor Road near the expressway than there is at Bradley Avenue near the expressway. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 21:20:02 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jun 7 11:07:07 2011. Currently all Victory Blvd limited-stop service make limited-stops to JEWETT AV!!! Shifting the S61/91 would be confusing to the riding public, discouraging ridership. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jun 7 21:20:17 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 20:57:59 2011. That has nothing to do with my plan though. I don't think that buses to the ferry are needed on both Manor Road and Bradley Avenue, but rather on Manor Road north of Holden Boulevard and Bradley Avenue south of Holden Boulevard, so that it serves the busiest sections of each respective street. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jun 7 21:21:24 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 21:20:02 2011. That's a minor, temporary issue. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jun 7 21:25:08 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Tue Jun 7 21:10:13 2011. I would not be one to complain if the S61 or S91 ran up Manor Rd but there are many factors involved that the MTA themselves would have to address and that's why it's better as-is.Hopefully the MTA doesn't think that way and genuinely looks into the service they've been asking for, especially if there's a cost-neutral way to do it. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Tue Jun 7 21:52:03 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 20:40:48 2011. Good to know. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Tue Jun 7 21:54:18 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Tue Jun 7 20:57:09 2011. Staten Island is not as transit-dependent as the other boroughs are. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Tue Jun 7 21:55:31 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Jun 7 17:32:40 2011. That last point is very true, especially with the way the houses are designed in SI...a majority of them are spaced apart from each other so it's not like one house is all over the other and vice versa. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jun 7 22:57:17 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by LRG5784 on Tue Jun 7 21:55:31 2011. Yes, but I wouldn't consider it a true, sprawly suburb. The houses are spaced out, but most neighborhoods are fairly walkable. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by dkupf on Wed Jun 8 01:33:28 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jun 7 21:21:24 2011. Something like this could also have long-lasting negative consequences. Currently, everyone knows how limited-stop buses operate for the Victory Blvd services--it's simple and easy to understand for the basic rider.Simplicity is also the reason why the Q25 LTD and Q50 stops have been changed to observe the same stops in Queens between Main St and the Whitestone Expwy. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by dkupf on Wed Jun 8 01:49:32 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Jun 6 23:57:38 2011. "The S48 is full by the time it gets to South Avenue and Forest Avenue, and packed by the time it gets to Richmond Avenue, I think that my alignment will help alleviate crowds on the S48 and give Forest Avenue riders a better chance at getting a seat in addition to linking the Victory Boulevard corridor with the Forest Avenue shopping area."Then there's definitely a need for another route. I think that how you wish to restructure service in Mariner's Harbor, Arlington, Old Place, and Bloomfield is the best option I've seen. I challenge Operations Planning to submit a counterproposal, if they have one.... |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Wed Jun 8 08:46:07 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jun 7 19:51:07 2011. No, the business owners won't fight for it. Their clientele aren't arriving by bus. And the riders losing service on Bradley, which has been there since the days of the 111, will ABSOLUTELY fight it's loss.What you're saying is that the people on Bradley SHOULD walk the 1/2 mile (which takes more than 5 minutes to walk) to Manor for the bus, but the people at the Todt Hill houses shouldn't walk 3/10 of a mile (which took me 6 minutes) FOR THE SAME BUS that won't require any service changes? Average walking speed is 2.8 mph, about 20 minutes a mile. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Wed Jun 8 08:49:44 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 20:36:37 2011. No. There are enough routes that connect areas on the 54 to the mall, or are a single transfer away. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Wed Jun 8 08:51:50 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 20:47:43 2011. No, it's not. The 54 serves point g, the mall is point b. It's simply not sensible. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Wed Jun 8 08:57:16 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Tue Jun 7 20:49:08 2011. But those pele aren't transit dependent, as residents in other boroughs are. The primary areas of growth are the south shore communities.If there was a call for off peak service, people would be riding, and off peak service wouldn't have been cut. There was a time when the 55 and 56 ran until 10 pm on 30 minute headways between the mall and Huguenot, but I was usually the only passenger. In fact, there were many trips I took on the 55 where I was one of only two people on the bus. That's simply not a good use of resources. And you can still see the 55 today at 5 or 5:30 pm with so few passengers you can count them on your fingers. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Wed Jun 8 09:01:07 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Tue Jun 7 20:57:09 2011. That's the north shore, not the entire island. The north is significantly more low-urban in nature than the south, which is medium-suburban. The north shore needs increased service frequency on its existing routes, or restoration of rail service and a complete redraw of bus service to feed it. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Wed Jun 8 09:02:37 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Tue Jun 7 20:57:59 2011. Because the 91 is operating in its place. The limited stop portion starts at Victory Blvd. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Wed Jun 8 09:05:50 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Tue Jun 7 21:07:55 2011. For the north shore. Transit needs for the south shore are for more peak and express bus service. There's very little off peak demand on the south shore. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Wed Jun 8 09:08:48 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jun 7 22:57:17 2011. Not really. Where I grew up, it was at least a mile to anything. Where I live now, I could go car-free if I so choose. My son's school, the mall, and several supermarkets and shopping centers are easily in walking distance. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by Hank eisenstein on Wed Jun 8 09:09:51 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by dkupf on Wed Jun 8 01:49:32 2011. Not another route, but larger capacity buses on the same headways. |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Wed Jun 8 09:14:13 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank eisenstein on Wed Jun 8 09:09:51 2011. You know how the MTA is with articulateds...more artics = LESS service! |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Wed Jun 8 09:15:42 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank eisenstein on Wed Jun 8 08:49:44 2011. Exactly! |
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Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k) |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Wed Jun 8 09:18:07 2011, in response to Re: Staten Island Fantasy Map (56k), posted by Hank eisenstein on Wed Jun 8 08:57:16 2011. From the looks of it, SIR North Shore must like to see the buses carrying more air than passengers. |
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