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| (632704) | |
Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Jun 12 20:01:45 2008        MUNI Metro was just downright fun. :) San Francisco is on few cities in the US that maintained its old streetcar network, but MUNI's dynamics creates a bizzare hybrid between a new and old system. Some portions of MUNI like the Twin Peaks Tunnel and most of the above ground alignments date to the early twentieth century while the Market Street Tunnel is a product of an abandoned plan local BART line that effectively parallels today's M & K lines to St. Francis Circle. In turn, while above ground portions feature minimal signals for interaction with motorized traffic, the Market Street Tunnel features a highly unpopular Alcatel signaling system installed in the late 1990s. MUNI also features a mix of high and low platforms that other systems don't have. To compensate, adjustable steps are used to that can easily lower or raise their height as needed. BTW, MUNI Metro is a POP system. I had the benefit of riding the N from Ocean Beach to 4 & King, and the M to Stonestown. Like nearly every portion of my trip, I'm kicking myself for not riding down to Balboa Park on the J. Regardless, I had much fun riding MUNI since I'm very partial to light rail systems, and MUNI only simply reinforced my love for the Stadtbahn. Now if they could only increase the absurdly low maximum speeds in the Twin Peaks Tunnel and swap the Bredas for these TW2000/2500 units from Hannover which are better looking and more flexible in use for MUNI's needs. Hopefully, additional funding will allow MUNI (or BART) to serve additional areas of the city. MUNI Metro still manages to avoid serving the northern half of the city, and so far the closest capital developments in serving those areas have been limited to BRT schemes on Geary and Van Ness Streets and new subway line thru the heart of downtown that while improving the T line* only runs as far north as Chinatown. At minimum, IMHO, the line should be planned to run as far north as possible along Columbus Ave, or with a portal at some point to provide service on the surface... |
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| (632706) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jun 12 20:09:12 2008, in response to Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Jun 12 20:01:45 2008. glad you had fun, Indeed you missed the J, but it will be here when you visit again. Yeah, the Alcatel crap is coming up on the tenth anniversary of the meltdown in August. BTW did you see the cute screen @ Embarcadero showing all trains in the downtown tunnel? |
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| (632719) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Jun 12 20:21:47 2008, in response to Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jun 12 20:09:12 2008. Indeed you missed the J, but it will be here when you visit againAdmittedly, I avoided riding the J through Mission since apparently it has a reputation of being a sketchy area*, especially after dark. Had I known that BART Millbrae had taxis to take me back to my hotel in San Bruno, I probably would have continued down to Balboa Park... BTW did you see the cute screen @ Embarcadero showing all trains in the downtown tunnel? Maybe I'm an idiot, but it came across as useless crap since I couldn't understand clearly what anything meant. Yes, it was obvious where the switches and stations were, but I didn't understand what represented a train and its respective line. I'm also at a loss as to why MUNI doesn't berth multiple trains in one station, or why they only use two cars at most... *Yeah, I avoided the T too for the same reason. Curse wikitravel's SF entry... |
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| (632747) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by aaron on Thu Jun 12 21:04:28 2008, in response to Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Jun 12 20:01:45 2008. The Market Street tunnel isn't an abandoned BART line. It was built along with the BART in the 60's, then left abandoned until the late 70's or early 80's when it was finally completed and opened. It stretched from the old East Portal at Castro Street to the Embarcadero.The East Portal was demolished when the tunnel was built. You could see the unused subway station at Castro as the "K" "L" and "M" lines exited the Twin Peaks tunnel there and continued down Market. They picked up the "J" at Church, then cut over to a temporary track by the Mint and picked up the "N". All the lines continued down Market to the East Bay Terminal. I don't remember if MUNI ran out of money or if the project was never completely funded. The arrival of the Boeing Vertol LRVs coincided with the opening of the system and the retirement of the PCC cars. |
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| (632756) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jun 12 21:19:03 2008, in response to Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Jun 12 20:21:47 2008. okay, 1 I don't find the J sketchy.2. The point of the screen is seeing which routes are approaching. viz. http://www.sfmunicentral.com/ 3. the two car train dilemma is as follows. The Metro has 5 (occasionally 6) routes. Muni has NEVER been able to operate the tunnel in a reliable and rider useful manner. In the early Boeing era, Js and Ns were joined at Duboce to run together in the tunnel, K,L,M same @ West Portal. Ridership climbed, Ns needed to be 2 car trains and con currently the Boeings' couplers began to fail more often. Delays entering the tunnels became intolerable. Meanwhile mgmt was sold the fantasy that Alcatel ATCS would fix everything, and the extension east of the Emb Station was built @ phenomenal cost WITHOUT a loop. So fast forward to 1998. After five years of early closing weeknights so that the "transmission" hardware could be bolted down between the rails and software could be tested (kinda like DoD star wars anti-missile tests), the new system went online. Not only did the ATCS constantly fail, the relaying of the trains east of the station trashed a long functional rider habit of riding downtown on one's train of choice in order to get a seat outbound in PM rush--think 5th Ave on the 7. The result was massive delays, trains sitting in he tunnels,riders getting angry enough to pop the doors and use the catwalk to the stations. So the coupling @ the portals was never really implemented w/ the Bredas, and after a long tussle w/ TWU two car trains w/ (gasp) only one T/O monitoring the semi automatic operation have become the norm--except of course when cars available for service are |
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| (632775) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Thu Jun 12 21:32:39 2008, in response to Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Jun 12 20:01:45 2008. Nice, that's one of my favorite systems. Glad you enjoyed it! |
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| (632777) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by Easy on Thu Jun 12 21:33:49 2008, in response to Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Jun 12 20:01:45 2008. Nice shots. |
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Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Thu Jun 12 22:26:17 2008, in response to Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Jun 12 20:01:45 2008. Very nice photos.... The fourth photo down, believe it is car #1489 (number blurred). Does that car have roll destination signs? Sure looks like it. |
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| (632820) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Thu Jun 12 22:41:20 2008, in response to Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by Joe Saitta on Thu Jun 12 22:26:17 2008. Yes. |
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| (632825) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Thu Jun 12 22:54:53 2008, in response to Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by Joe Saitta on Thu Jun 12 22:26:17 2008. Thank you. Do you know if that's the only LRV so equipped, or might it be just for test purposes? It certainly is much easier to see than those LED signs. All vehicles of the most progressive system in the world (in my opinion), Karlsruhe, Germany, including the latest, still have - and from what I understand - will continue to use the clear rollsigns. No LED or other similar type sign has yet to equal the clarity and amount of information that can be displayed on a rollsign. |
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| (632826) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Thu Jun 12 22:57:00 2008, in response to Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by Joe Saitta on Thu Jun 12 22:54:53 2008. There are a good number of LRVs with rollsigns. I don't know which ones are equipped with them and which aren't, but it's roughly half with rollsigns and half with LCD signs. |
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| (632847) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Thu Jun 12 23:19:48 2008, in response to Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by The Port of Authority on Thu Jun 12 22:57:00 2008. Thank you. |
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| (632851) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Jun 12 23:23:41 2008, in response to Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jun 12 21:19:03 2008. I don't find the J sketchy.Since I'm not familiar with the Bay Area, I was probably a bit more cautious than usual, so I tended to over hype claims of sketchiness. The point of the screen is seeing which routes are approaching. It makes sense after looking at the screen and realizing that the numbers stand for the number of cars, and that the line letters are posted above or below the station. the extension east of the Emb Station was built @ phenomenal cost WITHOUT a loop Just out of curiosity, what was the original design of the end of the line before the extension to 4th & King? Given the characteristics of the line, a loop seems like a rather sensible idea since three of the "five" lines turn at Embarcadero. Were there other plans for an extension of the tunnel? Not only did the ATCS constantly fail I've always wondered why ATC systems fail or have issues on older systems, while newer systems work with few issues. Meanwhile mgmt was sold the fantasy that Alcatel ATCS would fix everything I don't know how MUNI determined that a new signaling system would solve their troubles. I'm probably biased and pulling this out of my ass, but MUNI seemed to have entirely dismissed the idea of simply running longer trains on their network. Given the heavy crowding that I noted during peak runs, I'm amazed that MUNI doesn't run with three car sets on each line. The downtown stations appear to be able to support such lengths. IMHO, MUNI should really consider ordering single ended fleets with an open gangway at the end that can be combined into two car units. The removal of the cabs should remove unnecessary components and free up space for passengers. Current: Cab-Cab + Cab-Cab My Proposal: Cab-cabless+cabless-Cab A photo illustrating my point from Hannover. As to double berthing, seems to be a software issue. It seems that MUNI ended up with the worst ATC system in the world. Hell, despite an ATC system the Twin Peaks Tunnel is inexcusably slow... |
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| (632897) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jun 13 02:16:13 2008, in response to Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Jun 12 23:23:41 2008. Well maybe next time you should sample some of the excellent cuisine in the Mission.As to the fleet, just getting enough cars out each day seems beyond Muni. Course since they areBredas... Idon't know the ins and outs of the plans for the 'extension'. The original tunnel WAS designed by BART. I have early BART brochures showingthe route as far as St. Francis Circle. The back and forth resulted in what we have, oh well. Certainly there is platform capacity for longer trains VanNess and East but, Church and Castro are shorter. Some glitch exists at Castro which apparently causes a problem w/ four car trains. I think there is a slow order in the tunnel West of Castro. |
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| (632977) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Jun 13 07:49:08 2008, in response to Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Jun 12 20:01:45 2008. Really nice shots yo. It's good to show some love to the other SF streetcars :Dyour pal, Fred |
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| (633036) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Fri Jun 13 09:59:23 2008, in response to Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jun 13 02:16:13 2008. Almost every Muni Metro station is as long as the BART stations below them, but the trains pull up to the very front end of each station. Having two trains in a station isn't necessary because no one would know where to wait, and trains are almost always 2 minutes apart. If the station is 750 feet long and the train is 100 feet long, having two random lines in there simultaneously would cause chaos.Also, in defense of the Mission District, 24 & Mission is just a working class an interesting neighborhood. 16 & Mission is scarier looking, which is not to say dangerous during the day. My 23-yr-old daughter was recently at 16/Mission for something and was propositioned about 15 times (seriously), but no one threatened her. Finally the J-Church route is a couple of blocks to the west which is noticeably nicer. I think building those two stations for BART was bribe construction to be allowed to go through SF. Make believe it's not only for East Bay commuters; build a couple of stations in the Missions District and allow the monthly MUNI pass to work from there to downtown. The T route along Third Street is just mostly industrial and working class; I've ridden it at night and never felt the slightest bit unnerved. Even the gross-out Tenderloin next to downtown is not so dangerous, just very creepy looking. Also, before the extension east of Embarcadero was built, I think the MUNI Metro tunnel just ended and trains shuffled around to reverse direction, just as they do now. Finally: The hilliest part of SF is the famous area north of Geary or Market and east of Van Ness. A subway is hard to build because if it's a mere 10 feet below ground at one block, it's 100 feet below ground 2 blocks later. And ordinary streetcars could be hard to run because they would skid in the rain downhill and get stuck going uphill. That's why cable cars were used. The F line runs around the hills along the Embarcadero. I only wish the F line ran twice as many cars, even if they had to buy (Horrors!) relatively new cars like those in Philadelphia; sometimes it is so crowded, that there truly isn't room for even one more person. Did you notice the different two-note piano sounds and those automated voices announcing trains, like low C-lower G "Inbound M, M to Embarcardero in 3 minutes", meaning a two car M train, and middle C, middle E, "Outbound N Judah in 7 minutes". |
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Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by HMD on Fri Jun 13 11:33:04 2008, in response to Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Jun 12 23:23:41 2008. Just out of curiosity, what was the original design of the end of the line before the extension to 4th & King?All lines used to terminate at Embarcadero. Just before entering the station (coming from Montgomery), there's a double crossover that allowed outbound trains to board using both platforms. The double crossover should still be there--most lines still terminate at Embarcadero. Because this arrangement, back in the day anytime after 4 p.m., I would never ride to the end at Embarcadero if I had to go that far; inbound trains would just stack up and wait for the outbounds to clear. (And if it was aboard one of the miserable non-A/C Boeings, that made it triple-worse.) |
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| (633103) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by R PansePCC on Fri Jun 13 11:39:35 2008, in response to Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Jun 12 20:01:45 2008. Those are excellent, especially the night ones |
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| (633150) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jun 13 12:39:16 2008, in response to Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Fri Jun 13 09:59:23 2008. a correction or two. Castro, Church are much shorter than the BART built downtown stations. That said, double berthing could be done from Civic Center east, IF Muni were able to get the ATCS to do ANYTHING reliably. If you believe the 2 minute headway, can I sell you some bridges? That is not what I experience.FWIW 24th/Mission is consistently in the top ten BART stations by ridership, and the FastPass did not even exist when BART opened let alone was in planning stages. Actually building under Mission was classic even canonical: put the subway under a street with very heavy surface transit usage. I use 16/Mission regularly day and night. |
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| (633153) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jun 13 12:41:25 2008, in response to Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by HMD on Fri Jun 13 11:33:04 2008. Indeed Muni regularly demonstrated inability to function with a layout very like T Sq on the 7. |
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| (633289) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Jun 13 19:30:30 2008, in response to Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Jun 12 20:01:45 2008. Great photo set. |
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| (633599) | |
Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Jun 14 16:03:28 2008, in response to Re: Photos: California Soul - MUNI Metro, posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Fri Jun 13 09:59:23 2008. trains are almost always 2 minutes apartUnless you're riding to one of the individual branches... The hilliest part of SF is the famous area north of Geary or Market and east of Van Ness. A subway is hard to build because if it's a mere 10 feet below ground at one block, it's 100 feet below ground 2 blocks later. Thanks to Google maps, one can make out some of the topography of the city, so one must account for it to a certain extent. Mind you, if cost isn't a big concern, deep bore subway combined with elevators to the surface for access can certainly make building a line in such conditions rather feasible. I'd kill to see a diagonal line not following the street grid from downtown into the Marina district, but that will probably never happen. If we go with MUNI's current plans for the Central Subway, I'd like to see the subway extended along Columbus Avenue, or at minimum, for a portal to be built to allow for streetcar service from Columbus Avenue into the tunnel. That's why cable cars were used. It would be interesting to see MUNI buy modern looking cable-cars... ven if they had to buy (Horrors!) relatively new cars like those in Philadelphia Philadelphia didn't buy modern streetcars, but instead renovated its current PCC fleet to include options like AC traction and air conditioning. In contrast, only Portland, Tacoma, and Seattle have modern, non-replica, streetcars. |
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