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| The Electroliners (845894) | |
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| (845894) | |
The Electroliners |
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Posted by BMTLines on Mon Oct 19 22:53:59 2009 Another scan from the bowels of my collection.      Enjoy!! |
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| (845899) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Oct 19 23:29:46 2009, in response to The Electroliners, posted by BMTLines on Mon Oct 19 22:53:59 2009. Nicer Electroliners |
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| (845904) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by 600VDC on Mon Oct 19 23:51:00 2009, in response to The Electroliners, posted by BMTLines on Mon Oct 19 22:53:59 2009. The picture of the bar car got me to wondering. Does anyone know if there are still Bar cars on any commuter rail lines in the US, other than the New Haven Line? (Or are they gone now, too).I remember that in my early commuting days on the Erie-Lackawanna between Middletown, NY and Hoboken there were bar cars on some trains; but the bars closed north of Mahwah. They must have only had a liquor license in NJ. A lot of people from north of Suffern usually just grabbed a a few bottles of beer across from Hoboken Terminal or in the old commuter bar near the Hudson Tubes (PATH) entrance. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (845905) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Oct 19 23:57:42 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by 600VDC on Mon Oct 19 23:51:00 2009. Metro-North New Haven Line From Grand Central Terminal to Bridgeport, Conn. |
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| (845917) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Oct 20 00:54:34 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Train Dude on Mon Oct 19 23:29:46 2009. the HO units from Con-Cor are pretty nice. wonder if the same computer cut the dies for both.I'll have an Electro burger and a Coke. |
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| (845919) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Tue Oct 20 01:10:07 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by 600VDC on Mon Oct 19 23:51:00 2009. METRA closed the last bar cars in 2007, LIRR still has bar carts on selected trains. The EL bar cars lasted until 1985, by when the Comet I bars were soon rebuilt (1987).There are expected to be M-8 bar cars. |
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| (846007) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by 9 local on Tue Oct 20 11:33:06 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Oct 19 23:57:42 2009. Does anyone know if there are still Bar cars on any commuter rail lines in the US, other than the New Haven Line? (Or are they gone now, too). |
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| (846045) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Oct 20 13:18:31 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by 9 local on Tue Oct 20 11:33:06 2009. Huh? Looks like you suffer from selective bolding. Try again. Or don't. LOL. |
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| (846164) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 20 18:05:03 2009, in response to The Electroliners, posted by BMTLines on Mon Oct 19 22:53:59 2009. Very nice. You converted that to PDF by any chance?To think those used to run on the Loop, with those nice comfy seats and the Electroburgers sizzling away. (Would have liked to see them with pantographs, but that's me.) |
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| (846169) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 20 18:08:13 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by R42 4787 on Tue Oct 20 01:10:07 2009. The EL bar cars lasted until 1985Yes. NJT ran them to Bay Head mixed in with Comet IIs. (Wonder if anyone ever got a photo of them . . . used to see them running through Elizabeth all the time, hauled by the E60CHs.) |
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| (846180) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by BMTLines on Tue Oct 20 18:19:56 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 20 18:05:03 2009. I originally scanned them into PDF then exported the pages as jpeg so that I could store them and link to them from hereThe PDF is huge - almost 10 megs If anyone is interested I will be selling the original copy of this magazine (and lots more) at the Trolley show this Saturday Visit my table... |
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| (846238) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Oct 20 19:51:37 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 20 18:05:03 2009. Interesting that CNSM did not go for pans. Same owner as CSS&SB, although their decision was essentially driven by IC. |
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| (846249) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 20 20:19:28 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Oct 20 19:51:37 2009. AFAIK, the only interurban RR to use pans was the South Shore. All the other interurbans used standard trolley poles. |
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| (846272) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Michael Wares on Tue Oct 20 21:23:48 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 20 20:19:28 2009. Sacramento Northern |
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| (846274) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Michael Wares on Tue Oct 20 21:29:11 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Oct 20 19:51:37 2009. The South Shore was re-electrified at the time of the IC electrification. It had been an AC line.The North Shore retained the same system throughout its life, and would have had to have rebuilt the overhead to use pantographs. With street running in Milwaukee and along the Shore Line, it might have had to have retained trolley poles for compatibility with streetcars. |
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| (846275) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Oct 20 21:39:26 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 20 20:19:28 2009. Would you describe the Key System an interurban? |
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| (846316) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Oct 20 22:51:03 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Oct 20 21:39:26 2009. No, it was clearly an urban transit operation. Technically the Key trains were all commuter services aimed at SF. East Bay Traction (owned by the same folks) did the more local lines which did not cross the Bay. Making things murkier, the competing (later absorbed) SP (interim name Interurban Electric) East Bay operation included pan equipped cars which staffed the transbay lines and equipped local service cars. The heavy cars used on the transbay lines were similar to SP cars of PE, NWP, and Portland operations. |
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| (846397) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 21 04:40:29 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Michael Wares on Tue Oct 20 21:23:48 2009. I don't recall ever seeing photos of Sacramento Northern but I thought they used poles also. |
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| (846439) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Michael Wares on Wed Oct 21 09:54:31 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by randyo on Wed Oct 21 04:40:29 2009. Pantographs, poles, and third rail. And 600 and 1200 volts.The line north of Sacramento, originally the Nothern Electric, was third rail, with poles where necessary, at 600 volts. The southern part, originally the Oakland, Antioch and Eastern, used pantographs at 600 volts. After the merger, the south end cars could run the length of the line (with changes to the series parallel connections to allow full speed on 600 volts. The north end cars had to stay on the north. Usual practice was to run trailers through, changing motor cars at Sacramento. After the Bay Bridge opened in the late 1930s, it got more complicated. The bridge had both overhead and third rail. The Sacramento Northern cars, at least the ones likely to run on the north end, had third rail shoes, but they had to be made removable to clear the bridge third rail. |
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| (846498) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Robert King on Wed Oct 21 11:46:54 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 20 20:19:28 2009. London and Port Stanley?-Robert King |
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| (846511) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Oct 21 13:16:45 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Michael Wares on Tue Oct 20 21:29:11 2009. The South Shore went from single-phase 6600 VAC (700 VAC on street-running portions) to 1500 VDC to be compatible with IC's power system. |
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| (846617) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Oct 21 18:33:56 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Michael Wares on Tue Oct 20 21:29:11 2009. The North Shore retained the same system throughout its life, and would have had to have rebuilt the overhead to use pantographsWould it have had to be rebuilt? It was mainline "catenary" style; if it had to be rebuilt for the Yellow Line to use pantographs, then that would answer that.  Cleveland's Shaker line used similar wire with trolley poles on it until the PCCs were replaced with pantograph-using LRVs. The trolleys were using poles while the rapid transit line was using pantographs, on the same wire. (Both at East 55th, taken by Joe Testagrose in 1969.)   |
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| (846804) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Oct 22 08:57:54 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Oct 21 18:33:56 2009. Would it have had to be rebuilt? It was mainline "catenary" style; if it had to be rebuilt for the Yellow Line to use pantographs, then that would answer that.Rebuilt, rewired or not, the wires were capable to use both poles and pantographs after the Skokie Swift conversion to their last days.   
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| (846836) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Oct 22 10:36:18 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 20 18:05:03 2009. During severe snowstorms they were re-routed thru the subway. |
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| (846837) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Oct 22 10:36:18 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 20 18:05:03 2009. During severe snowstorms they were re-routed thru the subway. |
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| (846839) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Michael Wares on Thu Oct 22 10:41:34 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Oct 21 18:33:56 2009. "Would it have had to be rebuilt? It was mainline 'catenary' style"The Skokie Valley route was catenary, but I believe other parts of the line, including street running in Milwaukee, were trolley wire. |
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| (846911) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 22 16:07:24 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Michael Wares on Thu Oct 22 10:41:34 2009. Hair-splitting. All street-track electrification in the US that I know of is single wire, including the South Shore in Michigan City.Also, the new high-voltage wires in Boston South Station are single wire. None of this answers the question of having to be "rebuilt". The Cleveland example says "no", what with both trolley poles and pantographs using it at the same time . . . |
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| (846917) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Michael Wares on Thu Oct 22 16:59:24 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 22 16:07:24 2009. It's not hairsplitting.Depending on the type of suspension, trolley wire might or might not accomodate pantographs. Some trolley wire was suspended from hangers that are low enough to catch a pantograph. See the picture, "Contact wire support at a curve in Toronto" at http://lrt.daxack.ca/Overhead/index.html In addition, trolley wire is generally centered over the track; catenary is staggered to even out pantograph wear. |
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| (846933) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 22 17:32:12 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Michael Wares on Thu Oct 22 16:59:24 2009. I don't understand why you're linking someone's personal page. We're talking about rebuilding "catenary" wire. You're trying to twist this into something else. The Cleveland and North Shore examples are those of no need for rebuilding of "catenary" wire to accommodate pantographs when past practice was to use trolley poles.(And for the record, all overhead wire has a "catenary", defined as the "sag" in the wire between hanging points.) |
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| (846936) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 22 17:35:47 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Michael Wares on Wed Oct 21 09:54:31 2009. I see why you mentioned the SN . . . |
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| (846969) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Alan Follett on Thu Oct 22 18:29:26 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 20 20:19:28 2009. Piedmont & Northern, Denver & Interurban, and Hershey Cuban also come to mind. I'm fairly sure there were other a few other pantograph-using interurbans.Alan Follett |
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| (846986) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Oct 22 18:48:38 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 22 16:07:24 2009. Hair-splitting. All street-track electrification in the US that I know of is single wire, including the South Shore in Michigan City.Almost all. 
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| (847003) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Oct 22 19:28:28 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 22 16:07:24 2009. I seem to recall that when South Shore trains still ran on street trackage in South Bend, there were two wires. |
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| (847020) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 22 20:25:40 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Oct 22 19:28:28 2009. You remember right, it seems. Unusual configuration too . . . |
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| (847121) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Thu Oct 22 23:50:31 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Oct 22 18:48:38 2009. I think the poster was talking about simple suspension trolleywire vs catenary suspension with a messenger wire and a contact wire. Not metallic return double-wire (positive and negative wires). The Cincinatti system was exclusively double-wire and retained it to the end. Other systems had a mixture of single and double wire. Washington DC used conduit downtown, double-wire in the immediate vicinity (to combat electrolysis issues), and single-wire in the rural/suburban districts. However, AFAIK, the double-wire district was gone by the time that the PCCs arrived. |
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| (847330) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Michael Wares on Fri Oct 23 14:01:17 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 22 17:32:12 2009. "I don't understand why you're linking someone's personal page."Because, as should have been clear, I wanted to show a picture of trolley wire hangers that would interfere with pantographs, and that was the first picture I came upon. "We're talking about rebuilding "catenary" wire. You're trying to twist this into something else." No. As I think I made clear, not all of the North Shore had catenary. Some was simple trolley wire. "(And for the record, all overhead wire has a "catenary", defined as the "sag" in the wire between hanging points.)" In trolley wire, the contact wire sags between hagers. In catenary, the messenger wire sags, and the contact wire is intended to be level. |
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| (847397) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Oct 23 17:37:21 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Michael Wares on Fri Oct 23 14:01:17 2009. As I think I made clear, not all of the North Shore had catenary. Some was simple trolley wireWell, WADR it wasn't clear in the beginning. You made it sound like the entire electrification system required rebuilding to accommodate pantographs. As for the CNSM's street running, here's a hi-res pic that seems to show single-wire overhead that wouldn't be a particular problem for pantographs . . . (it resembles the single wire that HBLR uses on Essex Street in Jersey City, in fact)  |
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| (847448) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Oct 23 20:22:43 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Oct 23 17:37:21 2009. If Michael meant this type of wiring (from the page he mentioned), the North Shore had them. So no pantos without rewiring.  North Chicago, photo by Joe Testagrose. |
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| (847453) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Oct 23 20:37:31 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Oct 23 20:22:43 2009. the North Shore had themWhere, exactly? That photo doesn't show them. So no pantos without rewiring Is that factual . . . ? |
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| (847460) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by ebtmikado on Fri Oct 23 20:54:14 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Oct 23 20:22:43 2009. Additionally, the wire frogs at switches have to be modified toaccommodate both pans and trolley shoes or wheels. This is why some portions of MUNI are pan-only, trolley-only, or both. Lee |
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| (847516) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Oct 24 01:13:46 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Oct 23 20:37:31 2009. The yards at Milwaukee had them too. But I'm too tired to Google again.Your turn to Google and counter proff... or agree. |
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| (847622) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Oct 24 15:17:42 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 22 20:25:40 2009. That's looking east along LaSalle Ave; Lincolnway West (US 20) comes in diagonally from the left. The station is a few blocks ahead to the left and is blocked from view by the train.You'd never guess today that South Shore trains used to come all the way downtown. |
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| (847623) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Oct 24 15:39:04 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Oct 24 15:17:42 2009. by now I have been to 3 separate South Bend Stations La Salle, Bendix, Airport. Showing age. |
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| (847627) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by George Foelschow on Sat Oct 24 15:54:21 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Oct 22 10:36:18 2009. The only times the North Shore used the State Street Subway were on the rare occasions when the "L" south of Armitage was blocked. Severe snowstorms were not a problem on steel "L" structures with an open deck, preventing snow accumulation. |
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| (847674) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 24 18:08:05 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Oct 24 01:13:46 2009. OK, off I went to Google, and whatever photos of Pettibone Yard are out there seem to show the same kind of wire as on the street in Milwaukee. Same applies to the tracks under the Schroeder Hotel. |
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| (847744) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by ChicagoPCCLCars on Sat Oct 24 20:27:28 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by George Foelschow on Sat Oct 24 15:54:21 2009. I totally agree. North Shore wasn't afraid no steenkin' snowstorms. TR..where did you get that misinformation, might I ask.David Harrison |
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| (847755) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Oct 24 20:45:29 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 24 18:08:05 2009. Go to this page and check the Testagrose collection.234 at Milwaukee Yard  Of course since no date is given, we cannot say for sure if they still used that when they closed. Also I have a book that show the Electroliner going on a curve with overhead lines that a pantograph might foul. I can't find the same kind of pic online though. |
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| (847770) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 24 21:03:29 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Oct 24 20:45:29 2009. OK, thanks. The indications are that such configurations were in the minority, from the other pix that I see online.Silverliner in Milwaukee, February 1958. The "other" kind of single wire. (Also Testagrose.)  |
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| (847903) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Oct 24 23:01:43 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 24 21:03:29 2009. Even the minority had to be rewired if they wanted pantos there.Anyway, don't spoil the rest of my day. I had a good time at the Transit Museum today and want to leave it that way. :) |
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| (848025) | |
Re: The Electroliners |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Oct 25 09:38:34 2009, in response to Re: The Electroliners, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Oct 24 15:39:04 2009. I finally retraced the street route through South Bend in its entirety two months ago. The last piece of the puzzle was where Colfax curves over to Orange St. That's where the line swung over. I rode on the line only once, in 1967, didn't pay much attention as we rumbled through the west side of town.We drove out to the Bendix station in 1971 or 1972 to check it out. |
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