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| Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's (665084) | |
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Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon Aug 11 21:39:58 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 11 21:01:48 2008. So they weren't robust? |
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| (665479) | |
Re: MP72s - Was Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Aug 11 21:51:59 2008, in response to MP72s - Was Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Fulton Frank on Mon Aug 11 20:51:25 2008. The MP72s were replaced by C3s, as I recall it. Inside of the cars looked horrible, but it was the greatest experience to feel the open air when you stepped outside, rushing along. |
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| (665482) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Flxible Bus Authority on Mon Aug 11 21:53:37 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Aug 11 21:31:21 2008. WOW !! |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (665491) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Aug 11 22:00:38 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon Aug 11 21:37:46 2008. The Interstate Commerce Commission's report of Ex Parte #176, with regard to the November 1950 collision at Kew Gardens did not mention crashworthiness. Come to think of it, taking into account the speed of the vehicles involved (35+ MPH versus -0- MPH), I'm not sure that ANY kind of rolling stock could have survived it.Sometime in the late 80's or early 90s (might be 1989 or so) there was a rear-ender on MNRR involving two M-2s. One trainset was travelling in excess of 50 MPH, the other was stationary or travelling slowly. The lead unit of one train (#8840) struck the rear unit of the other train with such incredible violence that the car which was hit was smashed flat for more than half its length - the lead car leapt up and over it, winding up entangled in the catenary. It was indeed fortunate that no passengers were aboard either train - the damage to the one car was total - anybody in that part of the car would have been doomed - and the engineer of #8840 was killed in the crash when the floor beneath his feet simply fell out. M stock (MNRR and LIRR included) always impressed me with being somewhat less than crashworthy. Fortunately, the LIRR's safety record since the 1950 incidents has been pretty good - and the M's haven't had their acid test. But the MNRR accident got me to thinking - WHAT IF... wayne |
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| (665497) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon Aug 11 22:13:36 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Aug 11 22:00:38 2008. I couldn't find info on the DOT library on that wreck.Sounds scary, but yeah, at 50 miles an hour...something is going to get busted badly. So the car which was rear ended had the moving train ride up over it, shearing the roof off? And the BUDD M series cars are considered to be well built, and have good crashworthiness, from what I read. |
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| (665502) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Aug 11 22:21:54 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Aug 11 22:00:38 2008. The MNR collision at Mount Vernon was indeed horrific, and totally preventable.What I remember is that the engineer disabled ATC, disregarded several signals, and slammed into the other train at something like 55 mph. Even worse for MNR was that subsequent tests found evidence of drug abuse is not just the dead engineer (marijuana and morphine, and maybe some other stuff too) but also the relevant tower operators at Woodlawn too. I also recall that this was around the time of the horrific Chase, MD AMTK wreck too. Not a good time for the reputation of railroads. |
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| (665516) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Aug 11 22:43:26 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon Aug 11 22:13:36 2008. The roof wasn't sheared off, it was flattened down. Anybody sitting or standing there would have been killed. I couldn't find it in the DOT library nor could I find it in the NTSB railroad accident site.A post-mortem report is here wayne |
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| (665517) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Aug 11 22:44:49 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Aug 11 22:21:54 2008. My response to JournalSquare-K Car (one level up, then down) has a link to the NYTimes report. You are absolutely correct in your observations.-w- |
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| (665521) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon Aug 11 22:52:40 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Aug 11 22:43:26 2008. Oh, i see, so the train was run over by another? The blast was powerful enough to shake buildings..wow.The fact that the ATC was disabled is interesting, i bet it is still done, but that engineer tested for marajuana, so maybe he wasn't aware of the signals? Shame, regardless. Is it against the rules to disable ATC? Thanks for the link. |
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| (665523) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Aug 11 22:58:25 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Aug 11 22:44:49 2008. Would the disabled signal enforcement on the errant train have shown up as such to Woodlawn Tower? I was never clear on that at the time, although it seems to be implied by the NYT report, nor now, but I figure that someone here should know. |
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| (665530) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon Aug 11 23:08:27 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Aug 11 22:58:25 2008. Sounds like something that should be seen. A simple signal at a different frequency from the signal frequencies would do it. I bet engineers sometimes think they are in ATC when they are not, so they wait for the cab signal hit, they don't get it, and they end up hitting the train. I bet ATC makes engineers less aware of wayside signals too. I blame WMATA accidents in manual mode on this, since the operators loose the skill of actually operating the trains. I read here that the French PARIS metro has drivers in manual modes at various times(off peak), to keep drivers trained. Maybe ATC desensitizes enginners to wayside signals? |
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| (665536) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 11 23:14:24 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon Aug 11 21:39:58 2008. No, but they were well-maintained. |
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| (665540) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon Aug 11 23:29:21 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 11 23:14:24 2008. Why weren't they robust? Did they have thin frames? |
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| (665547) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Aug 11 23:47:32 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon Aug 11 22:52:40 2008. You are quite welcome.Someone better versed in RR operations would be more qualified than I to answer the ATC question. -wayne- |
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Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Flxible Bus Authority on Mon Aug 11 23:50:11 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Aug 11 22:21:54 2008. Both the motorman,and tower operator high;holy shit,it sounds like party time !! |
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| (665560) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 12 00:06:18 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Aug 11 22:21:54 2008. Metro-North has ATC on there? So running speeds faster than 90 mph is conditional upon FRA track class alone, then . . . ? |
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| (665565) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Aug 12 00:26:47 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Aug 12 00:06:18 2008. Don't quote me on this as the authority, but from what I understand, MNR uses a different cab signal system - or something to that effect - such that it functions passably for the commuter trains that MNR is running on the New Haven Line, but it's pokey by intercity standards; basically there isn't as much distinction at the higher speeds. I'd defer to anyone who knows more about the exact issue involved, but a sticking point seems to be that someone else other than CT DOT and MNR should foot a good chunk of the money to bring the speediest portions of the road up to full capability, since MNR isn't in the habit running trains over 90 mph on most trips. Most of the New Haven Line straightaways are what, maybe MAS of 70-80 mph?Also, not all of MNR territory is under auto control, either - Danbury Branch is the first exception that comes to mind; Waterbury Branch too. The other thing that takes away speed on the New Haven Line is the proscription on tilting, the many curves, and the low speeds 30-40 mph mostly over bridges of which there are many. |
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| (665566) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Transit Jeff on Tue Aug 12 00:28:35 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Fulton Frank on Mon Aug 11 13:27:54 2008. I purchased a brass MP-54 whistle some years ago at a train show in Maryland. I visited the Baltimore Streetcar Museum that day and they hooked it up to their shop compressor. It sounded great. Anyone remember what the old Pacific Electric car whistles sounded like out in Los Angeles. It's very similar. Also very similar were the air whistles on the old Philadelphia & Western "Strafford" type cars.I also own a brass Atlantic City & Shore Railroad Co. "Shore Fast Line" whistle, but I have never hooked it up to a compressed air source. But the old car barn { later bus garage } in Atlantic City had one on the roof that they would blow at lunch time every day for the workers. I vividly recall what it sounded like. Also, while on the subject of MP-54's, I understand two ex-PRR MP-54's are in storage on an industrial siding somewhere in North Jersey, along with other rail equipment. I understand the owner of the siding wants the stuff removed ASAP and the group that owns them is looking for a place. |
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| (665577) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Transit Jeff on Tue Aug 12 01:00:33 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Transit Jeff on Tue Aug 12 00:28:35 2008. And speaking of MP-54 whistles, does anyone remember those "ear splitting" cab signal whistles in them! I have one of them in my collection too.I have fond memories of the LIRR MP-54's. I had relatives in Rockville Centre and I would often visit for extended stays back in the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's. I loved to take the train down to NYC. In the warm weather, those openable windows were awesome. I'll never forget the sights and sounds of the rush hour trains coming out of NYC, packed with commuters. All the windows would be open and the men would be playing pinochle on boards and smoking cigars. The express trains were the best! The traction motors and gears were "screaming" as you raced alongside and above Sunrise Highway. I'm sure those trains could have been heard a half mile away. I have similar memories of the PRR MP-54's that operated in Philadelphia area commuter service. The Wilmington and West Chester lines were the best, in open window weather. My favorite seat on the West Chester line was in the rear cab, sitting on the wooden motorman's seat. We called it "the ironing board". That was a great spot on a Princeton Jct. "Dinky" MP-54 train too. The Wilmington line MP-54's were so loud at speed across the meadows in Delaware that you couldn't converse with your seat mate. I miss those days! |
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| (665643) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Tue Aug 12 08:18:40 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Fulton Frank on Mon Aug 11 20:19:53 2008. I climbed through one of those windows to get a seat at Penn Sta in 1962 as the door locations were full of people, couldn't do that move again today heh, I loved those MP54's. Karl M |
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| (665655) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Tue Aug 12 09:01:13 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Transit Jeff on Tue Aug 12 01:00:33 2008. Yes! The cab signal was shrill and LOUD. I guess it was a whistle that got a shot of compressed air when actuate. |
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Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Aug 12 09:29:11 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon Aug 11 18:03:43 2008. Not really, when you consider that some railroads built their own steam locomotives. |
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| (665669) | |
Guess the location (was Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s) |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Aug 12 09:55:39 2008, in response to Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 11 20:12:16 2008. So, where is that second photo taken?I have an idea, but I'm curious to see the guesses. |
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| (665678) | |
Re: Guess the location (was Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s) |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Tue Aug 12 10:18:05 2008, in response to Guess the location (was Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s), posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Aug 12 09:55:39 2008. NH line going under third Westchester Ave near Whitlock?? |
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Re: Guess the location (was Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s) |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Tue Aug 12 10:20:47 2008, in response to Re: Guess the location (was Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s), posted by Fulton Frank on Tue Aug 12 10:18:05 2008. ....or Wakefield? |
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Re: Guess the location (was Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s) |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Aug 12 10:23:44 2008, in response to Re: Guess the location (was Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s), posted by Fulton Frank on Tue Aug 12 10:18:05 2008. Can't be, because all 6 line stations didn't have platform-level mezzanines. And the subway station (Whitlock) is parallel to the Westchester Ave NYW&BR station. |
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Re: Guess the location (was Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s) |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Aug 12 10:24:24 2008, in response to Re: Guess the location (was Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s), posted by Fulton Frank on Tue Aug 12 10:20:47 2008. Wakefield didn't have an el running above East 241st Street. |
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Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Aug 12 10:26:29 2008, in response to Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 11 20:12:16 2008. 225th Street station on top, Marble Hill station down below. The staircase on the northbound 1 platform and the curve on the Marble Hill platform (the original station location above and east of Broadway) gives it away. |
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Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Tue Aug 12 10:29:59 2008, in response to Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Aug 12 10:26:29 2008. I was just going to turn my attention to the B'way line... Well done Dave! |
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Re: MP72s - Was Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Aug 12 11:07:47 2008, in response to MP72s - Was Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Fulton Frank on Mon Aug 11 20:51:25 2008. I remembered those cars when they were new MU units, rode to the World's Fair on them.ROAR |
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Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Aug 12 11:19:54 2008, in response to Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Aug 12 10:26:29 2008. That's exactly where I thought it was; the extended ramp from the stairs to the station house, and the bridge structure to the left of the station. |
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| (665886) | |
Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 12 16:41:50 2008, in response to Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 11 20:12:16 2008. Actually, that's my bad. The McAdoos were not MP-41s but MP-38s since H & M and PATH cars are slightly shorter than IRT cars and the MP-41s. |
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Re: Guess the location (was Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s) |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 12 16:42:41 2008, in response to Guess the location (was Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s), posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Aug 12 09:55:39 2008. Marble Hill. |
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Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 12 16:44:40 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Aug 11 21:37:36 2008. I corrected myself for that error in another post. |
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| (665908) | |
Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Tue Aug 12 17:12:12 2008, in response to Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 12 16:41:50 2008. Actually, the current PATH stock is the same length as IRT cars. From what I read, the Red McAdoo cars WERE 51 feet long. The H&M BLACK CARS were 48 or 49 feet long...like Manhattan El cars...Current PA4 cars are 51 feet long. PA car length and other info here Maybe they had a different designation because the "red Mcadoos" had three doors instead of two. the number after "MP" doesn't really mean anything, except for SOME cars, it coincides with the passenger floor space in feet. For instance, did MP72s have 72 foot long passenger space? What about MP 85s???They didn't have 85 feet of passenger room... or length. |
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Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 12 17:42:04 2008, in response to Re: LIRR (not NYCR) MP54s, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Tue Aug 12 17:12:12 2008. All the cars that ran on the H & M prior to the PA-1s had 3 doors per side. |
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| (665967) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by NJCL2308 on Tue Aug 12 18:51:15 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon Aug 11 13:52:53 2008. Well...they DID get the crap pounded out of them for fifty years plus, so, yeah, I think they'd qualify as "tough." |
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Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Flxible Bus Authority on Tue Aug 12 19:04:16 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by NJCL2308 on Tue Aug 12 18:51:15 2008. Yes indeed. |
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Re: NYC MU cars (was: MP54's) |
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Posted by Frank Hicks on Wed Aug 13 14:04:02 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 11 19:21:44 2008. I've never seen a decent roster of the NYC MU car fleet. There was a pretty minimal roster in one of the Morning Sun books, but it contained very sparse information and those books are typically rife with typos and factual errors anyway (fantastic pics, so-so text). Is anyone aware of a good NYC MU car roster in print?Frank Hicks |
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Re: NYC MU cars (was: MP54's) |
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Posted by Dave on Wed Aug 13 14:42:46 2008, in response to Re: NYC MU cars (was: MP54's), posted by Frank Hicks on Wed Aug 13 14:04:02 2008. New York Central's Later Power 1910 - 1968, by Alvin Staufer and Edward May, page 346. |
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| (666699) | |
Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Transit Jeff on Thu Aug 14 03:08:33 2008, in response to LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Flxible Bus Authority on Mon Aug 11 11:46:06 2008. I was just informed that there are two ex- PRR MP-54's on CSX property in South Philly. I hear they are in remarkably good condition. Who owns them and what the story behind them is, I don't know. I'm surprised to hear of this. Could be that they are in such an out of the way location, vandals haven't discovered them either.I was also told that there's an ex-Reading electric MU located near Wayne Jct. on SEPTA property. I think I had heard about that one. I think it had been used in work service. |
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Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's |
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Posted by Frank Hicks on Thu Aug 14 09:43:16 2008, in response to Re: LIRR/NYCR MP54's, posted by Transit Jeff on Thu Aug 14 03:08:33 2008. The two MP-54's in the CSX yard are 430 and 435, included in the roster of surviving MP-54's here. I would suggest that "remarkably good condition" is pretty generous, though. As for the RDG car at Wayne Jct, you're likely thinking of car 9125, which was used on the wire train. It was moved to the New Hope & Ivyland in late 2004 and is currently stored in Buckingham.Frank Hicks Preserved North American Electric Railway Cars |
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