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| (489316) | |
Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 07:58:54 2007 MTA in Pictures - Sep 12, 2007 Ridership on the Staten Island Railway reached 3.8 million in 2006, an increase of 9.4 percent over 2005. Shouldn't that be a message to the MTA to finally install some form of fare-zones on the SIR? Yesterday, I was able to take the S40 to St. George, transfer to the SIR and then transfer again to the S89...all on one fare. I'm not complaining or anything about that, but there's sooo many people that take advantage of the free SIR rides daily. |
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| (489318) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Sep 12 08:06:13 2007, in response to Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 07:58:54 2007. It's good that people are taking advantage. Since Staten Island has only one passenger rail line of any kind and relies on bus service and of course the Ferry, I don't begrudge residents a free ride. |
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| (489321) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 08:14:13 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by RonInBayside on Wed Sep 12 08:06:13 2007. Your right..but it's more of an issue that the rest of the borough has to actually pay if they want to get around by using the buses, while those that live around the SIR can get around for free. |
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| (489325) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Sep 12 08:48:01 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 08:14:13 2007. Actually, that's not true. You have to pay to ride the bus on Staten Island the same as anywhere else. The only difference is that SIRTOA throws in the train for free in the middle. And if you use your MetroCard in other boroughs, the TA throws in the train for free also.So the only extra you get on SI is the train. A lot of trips on SI don't even involve the train. |
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| (489334) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 09:10:18 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by RonInBayside on Wed Sep 12 08:48:01 2007. I think you read me wrong....I know that people on SI have to pay the same $2 as everyone else if using the bus network or leaving the SIR at St. George.My point is that..let's say I wanted to go shopping. I would have to pay $2 for a bus over to the Forest Avenue area. While someone on the South Shore can walk onto the SIR platform, take the train to New Dorp, Great Kills or Eltingville and do shopping there, and didn't have to pay once. There's actually thousands of intra-borough riders on the SIR daily who don't pay once. |
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| (489345) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Sep 12 10:00:41 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 09:10:18 2007. "While someone on the South Shore can walk onto the SIR platform, take the train to New Dorp, Great Kills or Eltingville and do shopping there, and didn't have to pay once. "Sure. And if you chose to go to that shopping center, you'd get the same benefit. "There's actually thousands of intra-borough riders on the SIR daily who don't pay once." And many thousands who do, on the bus. What % of Staten Island based riders use the bus vs. ones who use only the train? |
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| (489349) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by Alex L. on Wed Sep 12 10:14:50 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by RonInBayside on Wed Sep 12 10:00:41 2007. Sure. And if you chose to go to that shopping center, you'd get the same benefit.No he wouldn't. He would need to take the bus (and pay for it), since he doesn't live within walking distance of the free train service What % of Staten Island based riders use the bus vs. ones who use only the train? Interesting concept here - you want statistics on people who are not counted while using a free service. |
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| (489354) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Sep 12 10:35:40 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 09:10:18 2007. Walking the distance to/from the New Dorp shopping area (K-mart, Etc) and the New Dorp SIR station is not a quick walk. Let's see there's the waiting 30 to 60 minutes for the train, and if you do not know the schedule by heart or have a handy schedule - the wait is no picnic.There is having to know that all of your destinations have to soley on Staten Island, and soley within walking distance of the SIR, not always that easy. One the other hand, folks who can confine themselves to such trips are not using their cars which is often seen as good. And there are how many Staten Islanders? About 400,000, just 5% of the city's population. So just how many do you think ride the SIR soley on Staten Island for free? Mike |
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| (489357) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 10:44:56 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by Michael549 on Wed Sep 12 10:35:40 2007. Walking the distance to/from the New Dorp shopping area (K-mart, Etc) and the New Dorp SIR station is not a quick walk. Let's see there's the waiting 30 to 60 minutes for the train, and if you do not know the schedule by heart or have a handy schedule - the wait is no picnic.That walk is only 10 minutes between New Dorp Station and Hylan Blvd, but I was actually talking about shopping along the Lane in particular. I always thought that nobody rode the SIR until I rode it myself a good 5-10 times between St. George and Eltingville in both directions and the train become increasingly crowded (SRO in some cases) outside of St. George, particularly during mid-day. And then you have Tompkinsville...which has seems to have the second highest ridership level, next to St. George. And btw...Staten Island's population is at about 500,000. |
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| (489360) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 10:50:37 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by RonInBayside on Wed Sep 12 10:00:41 2007. Sure. And if you chose to go to that shopping center, you'd get the same benefit.As Alex stated, the SIR is a 15-30 minute bus ride and a transfer away from me. If I wanted to to go to any of those shopping centers, I would have to take the S54 (and/or transfer to the S57 for New Dorp). And many thousands who do, on the bus. What % of Staten Island based riders use the bus vs. ones who use only the train? You're still reading me wrong..these people don't pay anything at all. No transfers from the bus/subway, nothing. They hop on at a free SIR station and hop off at another free station. People on the bus do not do that. I noticed this solely off of many observations by using the line (from St. George). |
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| (489379) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Sep 12 11:35:49 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by Alex L. on Wed Sep 12 10:14:50 2007. SIRTOA performs periodic counts on who rides their trains. This does not depend on the one turnstile. However, I don't know if SIRTOA has an estimate as to what proportion do not continue the trip on a bus.Riders who use one bus and the train pay the same fare that anyone in the other boroughs pays. The folks who truly get a free ride are the ones usng only the train or only the train and the Ferry IF they get off at other than St. George and walk the rest of the way to the Ferry. Yes you can use a bus, the train and then another bus, but if much of the time you could have just used two buses to get where you're going, so I don't count that as much benefit (railbuffs who have to use rail as one segment excepted). |
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| (489381) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Sep 12 11:39:19 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by Alex L. on Wed Sep 12 10:14:50 2007. The MTA doesn't even do ridership surveys on the SIR? That does seem a bit surprising. |
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| (489383) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Sep 12 11:41:21 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 10:44:56 2007. Which is why the MTA needs to install a Metrocard-based POP immediately, and de-FRA the line, such that the conductors can be retrained as fare enforcement and OPTO can be done. |
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| (489392) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 11:52:08 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Sep 12 11:41:21 2007. I understand what you're saying and do agree...but POP would not work when you have the rest of the city (and Island) using Metrocards. The MTA could simply re-configure a few stations with HEETs and put an MVM at the more busier stations. And at St. George, there would still be the same system where you pay/leaving and going but the transfer set-up would remain the same.And honestly, the moment that the MTA chooses to implement a fare on the SIR, I can guarantee you that ridership will drop. |
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| (489395) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by PATHman on Wed Sep 12 12:05:53 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 09:10:18 2007. I'm not an expert on SI but isn't the south shore more densely populated than the north shore? If that's the case then it would make sense for the south to have better transit options. |
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| (489397) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Wed Sep 12 12:09:39 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by PATHman on Wed Sep 12 12:05:53 2007. No, it's the exact opposite. |
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| (489398) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Sep 12 12:12:23 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 11:52:08 2007. No HEETS for SIR, however. MVMs at every station, absolutely. If ridership drops on SIR, maybe it isn't as such a bad thing. The ridership loss won't be that significant, even if it means 3 car trains instead of 4. |
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| (489399) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Sep 12 12:13:13 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Sep 12 12:12:23 2007. BTW, I suggested a POP system using a MetroCard. Dip your card in, and get a receipt of payment. |
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| (489400) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Sep 12 12:14:03 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by PATHman on Wed Sep 12 12:05:53 2007. Not really...the NORTH SHORE has more density. The South Shore is primarily one- and two-family homes. The North Shore has apartment buildings. Ironic, isn't it? |
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| (489401) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Sep 12 12:15:34 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 11:52:08 2007. However, even if ridership dips, I'm not sure it would be a bad thing, because it means less subsidy for SIR, and more money for everywhere else.If ridership REALLY dips significantly, one could save wear and tear on the B cars by reducing trains to 3 cars. |
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| (489406) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Wed Sep 12 12:26:54 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 11:52:08 2007. I understand what you're saying and do agree...but POP would not work when you have the rest of the city (and Island) using Metrocards.Sure it would. Swipe your MetroCard through a card reader; it gives you a receipt good for 90 (or so) minutes of travel, to be shown to fare inspectors. That works perfectly. |
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| (489410) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 12:36:12 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by PATHman on Wed Sep 12 12:05:53 2007. As the other two said, absolutely not. Most of the density on Staten Island lies north of the SI Expressway, which is known as Mid-Island and the North Shore.The North Shore makes more use out of the transportation network than Mid-Island (Victory Blvd buses) and the South Shore. |
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| (489414) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by PATHman on Wed Sep 12 12:51:55 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Sep 12 12:14:03 2007. You're right about the single family homes but once on a X1 busfan trip I did see plenty of commercial development on Hylan Blvd. |
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| (489416) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Wed Sep 12 12:56:59 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by PATHman on Wed Sep 12 12:51:55 2007. That's low-density commercial development (aka sprawl.) |
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| (489422) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 13:09:26 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by PATHman on Wed Sep 12 12:51:55 2007. You should take a S40, S44, S46 or S48 busfan trip, and see what we're talking about. |
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| (489425) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by Andrew Kirschner on Wed Sep 12 13:17:19 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by RonInBayside on Wed Sep 12 08:48:01 2007. Really only very few (and very specific) trips involve ONLY the SIR train. The density along most of the line doesn't really support it. Shame about that North Shore line, though! That would get more use. |
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| (489450) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Sep 12 14:29:25 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 12:36:12 2007. Well, one can hope that the reurn of freight rail service to the North Shore means that the return of passenger rail there is not impossible.It's a pip dream for now, but a little less of a pipe dream than it was 5 years ago. |
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| (489465) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Wed Sep 12 15:15:54 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by RonInBayside on Wed Sep 12 14:29:25 2007. Well, one can hope that the reurn of freight rail service to the North Shore means that the return of passenger rail there is not impossible.Doesn't freight rule out LRT though? |
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| (489473) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Sep 12 15:20:56 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by Rail Blue on Wed Sep 12 15:15:54 2007. There is a solution---don't reconnect the line to the national network, except for a single connector track through which cars can be removed and placed back in, and have stuff arriving by rail at Howland Hook put on local trucks for the final leg. |
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| (489480) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Wed Sep 12 15:28:27 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Sep 12 15:20:56 2007. Or somehow make it three tracks... |
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| (489482) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by Lord Vader on Wed Sep 12 15:31:50 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 11:52:08 2007. Nah. My solution is just install HEETS on both entrances at Tompkinsville. That eliminates the "dead-beat sprint" to the ferry terminal and will turn up a profit. I doubt that folks will sprint from Stapleton because that is quite a hike. Even if some then stop using SIR, they will use the buses so the MTA does not really lose out.Lord Vader |
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| (489485) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Sep 12 15:39:19 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by Rail Blue on Wed Sep 12 15:28:27 2007. The last plan I saw, the North Shore LRT study done for the SI development group, called for the LRT to terminate in Arlington, east of the freight tracks. That way they avoid any conflict between the freight tracks operating into Howland Hook and the LRT. Nobody lives west of Holland Ave, so I don't know why it'd be worth the trouble of trying to wind it around the freight tracks. If someday they want to run the line to NJ or the West Shore they could just as easily cut south and run alongside I-278 or 440. |
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| (489492) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 15:50:32 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by Lord Vader on Wed Sep 12 15:31:50 2007. Why does everyone assume that riders getting off at Tompkinsville are headed to the ferry to beat the fare? It's a long walk up to the ferry..and the margin of time between getting off at Tompkinsville and catching the ferry is usually 5 minutes and even at your fastest pace, you'll get there in time to hear the boat flaring it's horn.Tompkinsville can be considered the Downtown of Staten Island, and 19 different bus lines pass through there. It's a very busy area of Staten Island and people do have destinations right there in Tompkinsville. OTOH though, that's exactly what I was saying. The MTA should rebuild the bridge to have a roof, but I have a different idea. Tompkinsville station should be set-up like St. George in that you have to pay to enter and pay to leave. An MVM can be placed on both sides of the fare-zone and install two Heets on the Victory/Bay end and a single HEET on the Hannah St end. |
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| (489495) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by Lord Vader on Wed Sep 12 15:58:31 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 15:50:32 2007. "Why does everyone assume that riders getting off at Tompkinsville are headed to the ferry to beat the fare? It's a long walk up to the ferry..and the margin of time between getting off at Tompkinsville and catching the ferry is usually 5 minutes and even at your fastest pace, you'll get there in time to hear the boat flaring it's horn"Seen it enough times Brah. The folks I see getting off at T-ville are with me on the same boat, panting but otherwise made the sprint. T-ville is really not that far and the train usually arrives 10-15 minutes before departure-enough time to sprint, grab a cold one at the bodega, and make it as the doors are opening. Of course, this is during off-peak periods. Myself, I swipe my card, still breathe easily, and have me a cold beer and two hot dogs and enjoy my cruise to Whitehall. Lord Vader |
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| (489503) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 16:14:46 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by Rail Blue on Wed Sep 12 15:15:54 2007. I honestly wonder if the current SIR fleet and ridership levels would rule out LRT.The SIR currently has 16 different trainsets (64 Cars) available, and only 2-7 of them are used at any given time. There's always a slew of trains laying up at St. George as though there's too many trains available. I would think that heavy rail would be the best choice because the Mainline and North Shore Line could possibly split the current fleet, but this is assuming that the MTA orders 64 replacement cars when the time comes around. My other point is ridership levels. This isn't like the subways where the riders come in spurts and what-not. With the SIR connecting to the ferry, the riders come in influxes of large crowds onto the trains. Just look at the SIR PM express trains, which leave St. George jam packed. Then you have the North Shore Line, which is inevitably destined to be packed from Day 1 because it's going to be taking riders the S40/S90, S44/S94, S46/S96 and S48/S98, which already have the highest levels of ridership on SI. If you have an LRT line, it's going to have less capacity and thus..won't be any different from the jammed packed buses we have now. But with a normal heavy rail line, at least there's going to be enough capacity to keep up with the high amount of riders. |
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| (489504) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Sep 12 16:16:43 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by Lord Vader on Wed Sep 12 15:31:50 2007. NO! Absolutely no HEETs! If one person has a problem, that takes the entrance out of commission. |
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| (489505) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 16:18:02 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Sep 12 16:16:43 2007. Well turnstiles would be no good, because there is very little security on the SIR and the turnstiles would be jumped like no tomorrow. |
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| (489507) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Sep 12 16:20:54 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 16:18:02 2007. Then implement POP. No need for fare gates of any kind, just put some MVMs and reciept printers on the platforms. |
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| (489514) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Wed Sep 12 16:46:22 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 16:14:46 2007. LRT isn't restricted to low-capacity corridors... it has the capability to handle large crowds if implemented correctly. |
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| (489540) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by P-rad M on Wed Sep 12 17:23:59 2007, in response to Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 07:58:54 2007. Yesterday, I was able to take the S40 to St. George, transfer to the SIR and then transfer again to the S89...all on one fare.I did something similar last week. I took the S89 to SI. Then SIR to Tompskinville to then walk to the SI Ferry terminal. :) First time I've done that too without any sense of direction neither...... All I did was get off and saw boats and just followed the road to them. And I actually connected with the boat that the SIR train I was on would connect with. Then took SI Ferry to Manhattan, went around on the (J) on one fare. Then went back to SI Ferry to SI. Walk to Tompskinville and barely made the connecting train. Took that to Eltingville then making the first S89 to Bayonne. |
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| (489544) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Wed Sep 12 17:33:30 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by P-rad M on Wed Sep 12 17:23:59 2007. Seeing as you would have to pay for the S89 anyway, why did you walk to Tompkinsville? |
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| (489549) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by P-rad M on Wed Sep 12 17:39:58 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by Rail Blue on Wed Sep 12 17:33:30 2007. Well, the only reason why I did that was because I wanted to get a few NYCT Nova shots. |
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| (489558) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Sep 12 18:19:23 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by WillD on Wed Sep 12 15:39:19 2007. True statements. |
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| (489559) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Sep 12 18:20:39 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by The Port of Authority on Wed Sep 12 16:46:22 2007. You can run 4-car or even longer trains with LRT, although that is not most common. |
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| (489560) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Sep 12 18:22:15 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by WillD on Wed Sep 12 16:20:54 2007. For the SIR, that is a good solution. Then have NYPD randomly check for tickets and hand out $500 summonses for fare beating. |
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| (489616) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Wed Sep 12 20:49:10 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 16:14:46 2007. My other point is ridership levels. This isn't like the subways where the riders come in spurts and what-not. With the SIR connecting to the ferry, the riders come in influxes of large crowds onto the trains. Just look at the SIR PM express trains, which leave St. George jam packed.Maybe a subway to St George isn't all that silly an idea... |
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| (489618) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 20:57:11 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by The Port of Authority on Wed Sep 12 16:46:22 2007. You think so?5:00pm ferry comes in...the routes along the North Shore are so heavily used that they need two (or three) of the same buses departing simultaneously. 2 S40s, 1 S90; 1 S44, 11 S94; 1 S46, 1 S96; 2 S48s, 1 S98, all would dump a considerable portion of their riders onto the North Shore Line. Looking in the long term, I think it would be better if the line was heavy rail, because at least 4 S44/R160/Rwhatever cars would definitely be able to handle the loads heading to/from the Ferry, without having to have all too frequent headways that an LRT line would require. |
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| (489619) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 20:57:39 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 20:57:11 2007. * only 1 S94 |
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| (489621) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Wed Sep 12 21:02:03 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 20:57:11 2007. All right, so have several 2 or 3-car LRT trains at the ready whenever the ferry arrives. |
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| (489623) | |
Re: Staten Island Railway |
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Posted by (SIR) North Shore Line on Wed Sep 12 21:02:49 2007, in response to Re: Staten Island Railway, posted by Rail Blue on Wed Sep 12 20:49:10 2007. Well it was, until the borough (SI) started to grow....and grow...and continued growing..right out of the current transportation infrastructure.If a route was extended or built to St George, it would balance the ridership loads, and bus/train frequencies out by a considerable measure. |
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