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| Pre-GOH R-46 Questions (319982) | |
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| (319982) | |
Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by SilverFox on Fri Oct 6 06:53:43 2006 Seeing this image on nycsubway.org brought back several memories I had about R-46 cars pre-GOH. First, there was always a weepy background "whine" that was made by these cars that was not noticeable on any other car class. It was very distinct -- almost electronic in sound -- when the compressor was off, and stood alongside the compressor noise when the compressor cycled on. What was that? It wasn't the microphone, because this whine was external. What about the GOH process eliminated that whine? Second, when the brakes were released, the escaping air left with a distinct whistle. What about the braking system had to be changed post-GOH that eliminated the whistle? Side question: The R-44s pre-GOH had the same braking system as the LIRR M-1s. Why was the braking system changed on the -44s but not the M-1s? The controller stand on the pre-GOH -46s almost looked like the dashboard of a space ship, with numerous buttons, lights, switches, dials, and what-have-you. The controller handle was very distinctive as well. After GOH, the entire stand was replaced by the Cineston (?) controller and had maybe one or two other buttons on it. What was the reason for this change? What was the reason for removing the glass partition at the door breaks of the -46s but not the -44s post GOH? If anything, this feature was a touch of class in a classless system. When did they add the springs to bridge the car ends on the R-46s? I know it was pre-GOH, but sometime after 1980, apparently. How many R-46 trainsets were retained by the Jamaica yard at the time the R-10s (seen in the background of the photo) began to infiltrate the Queens Boulevard lines? My recollection of those R-10s were not as the speedsters others have called them, but filthy, plodding, breakdown-prone messes that desecrated stations upon their entrance. I was only about ten years old then, to wit, so my recollections may be wrong or biased based on the few times I've ridden them with my Dad, but I don't think I'm mistaken. When were those R-46s returned in toto to Queens Boulevard? 82? 83? Thanks! |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Atomsk on Fri Oct 6 10:00:47 2006, in response to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by SilverFox on Fri Oct 6 06:53:43 2006. Sansone shows that the R46s originally came with a lighting inverter (GE model 352020BV105). The book doesn't show that unit, in the list of post GOH equipment. That could be the source of the whine you mention.They replaced the GE brake system, with one from NYAB, during GOH. The two systems probably had different confiurations to the ports throu which they vented air. That probably explains the different sound, when the brakes released. |
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| (320032) | |
Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Oct 6 12:28:28 2006, in response to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by SilverFox on Fri Oct 6 06:53:43 2006. Second, when the brakes were released, the escaping air left with a distinct whistle. What about the braking system had to be changed post-GOH that eliminated the whistle? I remember that sound, perhaps the most distinctive sound outside the R38-42 "Darth Vader" brakes. Side question: The R-44s pre-GOH had the same braking system as the LIRR M-1s. Why was the braking system changed on the -44s but not the M-1s? My ears tell me the R44 brakes sound virtually identical now as opposed to pre-GOH, at least when they're released. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Oct 6 12:53:50 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Atomsk on Fri Oct 6 10:00:47 2006. I can still hear the original R-46 sound somewhat. Their original speedometers were interesting when they worked. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Oct 6 13:08:23 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Oct 6 12:53:50 2006. The R46 sound is easy to replicate. It's simply a high-pitched whistle. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by SilverFox on Fri Oct 6 14:56:55 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Oct 6 12:28:28 2006. I don't remember "Darth Vader" brakes as much as the little puff of air that escaped from nearly all the SMEE cars after the doors closed at each station. The M-1 brakes release far more cleanly and crisply than the extended sigh given by the R-44s today. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by SilverFox on Fri Oct 6 15:05:45 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by SilverFox on Fri Oct 6 14:56:55 2006. Another distinctive brake system sound was of the R-68s when they were new. Instead of a tailing-off whistle at startup like the 46s, the R-68s would begin with a rush of air that tailed off into a high pitched constant whistle, sort of like, TSHHHHHhhhhhh-FWEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, followed by the compressor cycling on with a TSSSH-tsh! and cycling off with a short HEE! Why were their brakes modified so early in their service life? I remember that the GOHd R-10s also had a similar compressor sound setup, but the brake system sound was classic. I thought to myself, "Stupid R-10 trying to be an R-68. Tsk tsk tsk." |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Oct 6 19:01:34 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by SilverFox on Fri Oct 6 14:56:55 2006. I don't remember "Darth Vader" brakes as much as the little puff of air that escaped from nearly all the SMEE cars after the doors closed at each station. I remember that too. The R36WF cars retained that charactertistic to the end. It was loudest on the R16's, for some strange reason. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Oct 6 19:44:30 2006, in response to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by SilverFox on Fri Oct 6 06:53:43 2006. "What was the reason for removing the glass partition at the door breaks of the -46s but not the -44s post GOH? If anything, this feature was a touch of class in a classless system."I love those partitions. Great for leaning (instead of leaning on the doors the way everyone does even though it's wrong and annoying) and they give you a sense of privacy even if you don't actually have it. I love them so much that all else being equal I'd pick an A train over any other line. And it bugs me that F trains have everything but the glass! |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Fri Oct 6 19:57:38 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Oct 6 19:44:30 2006. Those glass partition made them feel like the M-series cars, along with "faux" wood trim and wallpaper. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Fri Oct 6 20:08:35 2006, in response to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by SilverFox on Fri Oct 6 06:53:43 2006. 1) The distinctive whine was from the "static converter" whichconverted the 600 volts to battery voltage and which also created the AC for the lighting. Most of the static converters from that period were buggy. The R42 converters were notorious for dark cars. The whine was the switching frequency of the converter, just like a TV set. 2) R44 and R46 had different air brake packages. I'm trying to remember.....think R46 was a GE product and R44 was WABCO. The R46 package was completely replaced during GOH. The whistle noise came from the package under the car so new package, new noise. 3) Don't get me started on the controller. The old slide controller worked a potentiometer because the brake package was electronic. During GOH the decision was made to go back to a pneumatic brake valve and a few people in car engineering got it in their head that there was just no way to retrofit the slide handle to a pneumatic valve. The R44s had been converted to the rotary handle a few years earlier because their brake system was even more problematic. Despite crew complaints about the cineston handle, they went ahead with a similar product (but made by NYAB) with the R46 GOH program. 4) The baloney springs were added after a blind person mistook the gap between the cars for a doorway and died. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Fri Oct 6 20:14:07 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Jeff H. on Fri Oct 6 20:08:35 2006. "distinctive whine"Is that the same whine that the R40's or R68's make from the capacitors? |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Eric B on Fri Oct 6 22:52:27 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Jeff H. on Fri Oct 6 20:08:35 2006. Did that old slide controller work the same as the modern ones?What about the M class cars? They used P-wire too (and apparently the same brake valve package, from the sound), but they use a cineston controller. Did those once have slide controls? From what I have seen; I like the controllers in those cars. They should have used those for the 44/46. They look like cineston versions of the GE controllers (which are my favorite). About the same size, but covered in black plastic, or something, and of course, include the braking as well as power. Those look easier to work than the Westcodes and NYAB's which are too long (requires more pressure to hold down; gets tiring on a long A, F or R trip). The Westcodes in particular are known for popping up. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by SilverFox on Sat Oct 7 02:16:22 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Fri Oct 6 20:14:07 2006. It was a whine that made the car seem almost like it was crying all the time. It would change pitch arbitrarily and would always be heard while the train was either laid up or in the station. About the only parallel I could draw is that of a constantly whining cat, and that won't be too accurate. |
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| (320293) | |
Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by SilverFox on Sat Oct 7 02:20:43 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Jeff H. on Fri Oct 6 20:08:35 2006. 4) The baloney springs were added after a blind person mistook the gap between the cars for a doorway and died. About when did the addition occur? It happened so subtlely I never recalled seeing the R-46s without at least mid-train springs. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Sat Oct 7 03:27:02 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by SilverFox on Sat Oct 7 02:20:43 2006. Ummmm, I remember when the incident happened and it was rightabout the time when the cars started going out to GOH, so maybe late 1980s? |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Sat Oct 7 03:35:03 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Eric B on Fri Oct 6 22:52:27 2006. A fellow who posts here sometimes used to own one of theseslide controllers as a collectible. It was, admittedly, a strange contraption with a chain and sprocket. The M series cars had the cineston-style from the beginning. The Westcode controllers were a standard offering from WABCO/WABTEC. Unfortunately in the R44 cab there really isn't enough depth and since car equipment just plopped the thing in the middle of the existing console, the result was a controller which was awkward, especially for motormen of substantial carriage. For the R46 project both types were tested. The NYAB product was custom-designed. I don't recall why it won out over the Westcode, but I recall crews didn't care for either. The new-tech controllers circumvent the issue of fitting a self-lapping straight air valve to the linear motion because they do not have a straight air pipe. In a way, they are similar to the original R44/R46 controllers but I have never taken one apart and I don't know how it is mechanically constructed. |
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Answer to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 7 08:48:57 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by SilverFox on Sat Oct 7 02:16:22 2006. The sound that you are referring to came from the 11 KW General Electric converters mounted under the 'A' cars. They had a distinctive 'whine' due to the very large transformers within. The converter would take 600VDC from the 3rd rail, convert it to AC and then back to 37 volts DC to power the train's auxilliary equipment. The pitch of the 'whine' was directly related to the load placed on the converter. When the trains were layed-up, there was virtually no load so the would produce the sound that you described. When a demand was placed on the converters, like if the doors were opened or the lights were turned on, the pitch of the 'whine' would change noticably.This is true of most converters today. Especially as they age and the laminations on the transformer core loosen up, the distinctive sound will get progressively louder. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 7 08:52:45 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by SilverFox on Sat Oct 7 02:20:43 2006. The engineering & testing was done in 1983 but the actual installation was begun in 1984. IIRC, There was a mandate that on January 1 1985, no R-44/R-46 would be allowed into service without the springs installed. |
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Re: Answer to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Oct 7 09:08:32 2006, in response to Answer to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 7 08:48:57 2006. OK, that's exactly the sound I was talking about. I used to notice it on the R40's when the A/C unit was off, and the doors closed, I would here the whine change dramatically. And on the R68's, well, some of them just scream that whine when the contact shoes slides back on the 3rd rail after a 3rd rail gap. |
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Re: Answer to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by SilverFox on Sat Oct 7 11:13:20 2006, in response to Answer to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 7 08:48:57 2006. Thanks! |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by SilverFox on Sat Oct 7 11:16:30 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 7 08:52:45 2006. Thanks again! |
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Re: Answer to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Oct 7 11:17:18 2006, in response to Answer to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 7 08:48:57 2006. Thank you.With more load the pitch rises, correct? |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by SilverFox on Sat Oct 7 11:17:51 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Jeff H. on Sat Oct 7 03:27:02 2006. Got it! Thanks! |
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Re: Answer to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 7 11:33:54 2006, in response to Re: Answer to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Oct 7 11:17:18 2006. yes. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Eric B on Sat Oct 7 21:38:29 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Jeff H. on Sat Oct 7 03:35:03 2006. >Unfortunately in the R44 cab there really isn't enough depth andsince car equipment just plopped the thing in the middle of the existing console, the result was a controller which was awkward, All the more reason they should have used the ones used in the M class. They are shorter, and would not be as awkward. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Oct 7 22:17:34 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Eric B on Sat Oct 7 21:38:29 2006. It's not so much the size of the controller handle as it is the size of the whole controller box itself and in that regard, the LIRR M type wouldn't be an improvement at all. As for the GOH R-46s, the 2 manufacturers' products that were tested were the standard WABCO cineston and the NYAB version. Westcode wasn't even in the running for that one but that may be because WABCO took over the Westcode company which was British Westinghouse anyhow. Up until that time, NYAB didn't even have a version of the WABCO cineston and had to come up with one in order to satisfy NYCTA requirements for GOH on the R-46s which stated in part that "the master controller shall be a WABCO cineston or equivalent." |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Westcode44 on Sat Oct 7 22:28:14 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Jeff H. on Fri Oct 6 20:08:35 2006. BRAKE PACKAGES-R44-G4B (Acar) G4C (B car) A-13 Controll Unit Now-WE-2 package R46-GRB2 (A car) GRB2 (B car) FL-85 Control Unit- Now-NYAB-E-2 Package |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Oct 7 22:29:14 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by SilverFox on Sat Oct 7 02:20:43 2006. As delivered, the R-40Ms thru R-46s had no inter car barriers except at the #2 end on the 40s and 42s. As early as 1976, the TA attempted to add some form of intercar barriers beween the cars by adding on a collapsable pantograph gate similar to those on the IRT Lo-Vs. I saw several trains of R-46s with them but for some reason, the installations were not extended to the entire fleet and they were removed from the cars that did get them. It wasn't until the early 1980s that the TA again attempted to install some sort of inter car barriers and several rather novel devices were tried before the present baloney springs were decided on. |
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Re: Answer to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Westcode44 on Sat Oct 7 22:31:40 2006, in response to Answer to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 7 08:48:57 2006. And when the train is in emergency and the MAIN LIGHTS are off there will be no whine/sound heard at all. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Sun Oct 8 04:03:08 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by randyo on Sat Oct 7 22:17:34 2006. Also I recall that during the bake-off between the two competingbrands, most people favored the WABCO product, but for some reason NYAB was selected. Their production model was an improvement of the prototype which was tested before GOH, but still left much to be desired. |
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Re: Answer to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Sun Oct 8 04:05:44 2006, in response to Answer to Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 7 08:48:57 2006. Did engineering ever figure out that problem on the JamaicaR32 fleet with converter whine getting into the PA system with the PA off? |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Sun Oct 8 04:08:56 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Westcode44 on Sat Oct 7 22:28:14 2006. I thought one of these had a brake system designation likeRT5C? |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Westcode44 on Sun Oct 8 10:11:38 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Jeff H. on Sun Oct 8 04:08:56 2006. Thats correct they both did...RT5C- Controller |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by BLE-NIMX on Sun Oct 8 11:56:28 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Westcode44 on Sun Oct 8 10:11:38 2006. The RT5C was the brake package for the R44 and R44 SIRT. The controllers and master controllers were different altogether (R46 had two group controllers, one for power and another for dynamic). IIRC there was a WESTINGHOUSE AND GE master conrollers for the R46 consoles depending on equipment. I own a GE which has the typical GE flat contact fingers. The WH consoles had drag on the sliders. R44 had a WH console with LICON microswitches for trainline functions instead of spring loaded buttons. BTW here is that static whine:R46 invertor/brakes |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Eric B on Sun Oct 8 12:30:42 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by randyo on Sat Oct 7 22:17:34 2006. What do you mean by "controller box"? The size of the base on top, or the equipment below? The control panel was the size it was, and not because of the controller. It was designed for the slider of course, and without the straight air shaft below, so it originally wasn't as bad.But if they had to go with a standard straight air controller, then the one used on the M class (probably a GE) would have been better, because the biggest difficulty with the Westcode was that when you are moving it, it is right in your chest (plus the popup problem, especially when moving it). The shorter the controller, the better it would have been. With those, it looks like you would have more space for leverage. The Staten Island cars did get the WABCO, I believe, and it looks like it is even longer, and higher and more to the left. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Oct 8 14:29:51 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by randyo on Sat Oct 7 22:17:34 2006. They look WAY too bulky for the console...They should have gone with the M1 type controler from the very begining. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sun Oct 8 15:26:21 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by BLE-NIMX on Sun Oct 8 11:56:28 2006. Cool! Got anymore R46 pre-GOH sounds? |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Oct 8 16:31:51 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Jeff H. on Sun Oct 8 04:03:08 2006. The reason New York City Transit chose New York Air Brake was never made clear. However the NYAB Brake package is virtually a clone of the WABCO package. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Mon Oct 9 12:25:03 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by randyo on Sat Oct 7 22:29:14 2006. The pantographs were installed on the slants between the fall of 1968 and spring, 1969. They started showing up on the mods and 42s exactly 10 years later (late 78/early 79). When I left NY in late 1988, the 44/46 fleet had no protective barriers in place. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by SilverFox on Tue Oct 10 03:10:23 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by BLE-NIMX on Sun Oct 8 11:56:28 2006. Yup, that's the whine, and those are the brakes! Excellent sound clip. Really takes me back. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Oct 10 03:30:00 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by SilverFox on Tue Oct 10 03:10:23 2006. YES!I LOVE THE BRAKE RELEASE! PHEEEEEEWWOOOOO! |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by BLE-NIMX on Tue Oct 10 11:56:14 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by SilverFox on Tue Oct 10 03:10:23 2006. When I posted I did forget to link the R44 RT5C package brakesPwire44 Here is another R46 with the original Trane air conditioners pumping away. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by 5119 on Tue Oct 10 14:01:22 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Oct 6 19:01:34 2006. It seems like I remember the 46's brake releases sounding like the R17's-22's series cars. |
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Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions |
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Posted by Westinghouse XCB248S on Sun Oct 29 09:58:39 2006, in response to Re: Pre-GOH R-46 Questions, posted by BLE-NIMX on Tue Oct 10 11:56:14 2006. What happened? The link is not showing anything. |
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