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Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by Q65A on Sat Sep 28 11:52:39 2024 As a former resident of this part of Queens, I thought this proposal from Joint Transit Association's YT page was interesting.The video has a lot of repetitive footage of R160s rolling in and out of Woodhaven Blvd. but the concepts they propose are interesting: Horace Harding Subway |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 28 12:52:06 2024, in response to Horace Harding Subway, posted by Q65A on Sat Sep 28 11:52:39 2024. Hmm.You talking about the subway to Jewel Ave under the Long Island Expressway. It's still possible to build the route,restructure Woodhaven Blvd into "express station" with bypass tracks. Its ENTIRELY POSSIBLE, BUT the MTA is more interested in building lines for the "suburbs" than the people who use the "city lines". |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by Q65A on Sat Sep 28 13:52:09 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway, posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 28 12:52:06 2024. You are absolutely right, sir.A lack of political will is a lot more damaging than a lack of money. |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 28 15:38:32 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway, posted by Q65A on Sat Sep 28 13:52:09 2024. Thank you.But I am not a "sir". It's a common mistake around these parts these days. No harm,no foul. In any case,each and every subway proposal has to be vetted by layers of approval. The Neighbor's it will pass through. Property tax accessed for financial funding. Political backing, community boards, and vetting by the municipal entity that is chartered with building subway infrastructure. Studies and environmental impact statements. City,state and federal funding.. ratings on a list of priorities projects. This is only part of what goes into building subways. Some actually get the green light, but never get a shovel in the ground. Some projects, like the SAS, have been Paid For several times already by the city state and feds,yet TODAY,WE HAVE THREE STATIONS in upper Manhattan, and One station (Grand St) in the lower Eastside. Queens Should have more lines than it has, but the corruption is so ingrained into the process that it is almost impossible to get anything built There,or anywhere else. The Latest effort to bring any new rapid transit to both Brooklyn or Queens rests on the OBX. The ONE GOOD THING IT HAS GOING FOR IT,is that it is already on its own Right of Way. However, the line is deliberately being curtailed by the powers that be. The link could serve as a direct link to the LGA Airport from Jackson Hts, and replace the bus line. The line could potentially be extended to a new transfer station within the Sunnyside Yard, transferring to a line from the 63rd st tunnels using the unused bellmouths. The link could be the third link between Jamaica, South Jamaica,Long Island City and Northern Queens along the LIE all the way to the Nassau boarder. The MTA has the prime opportunity to create a "LRT" system here with vast coverage and conditions to places of interest, residential neighborhoods, and places of employment. With this new system,it could even reduce some business dependence,open up new corridors for transit development, and provide the current transit deserts with viable services. I believe they already know this, and deliberately setting the bar low They Really don't want to increase their transportation responsibility within the city, which they have shown us abundantly. Since they took over the network, we have lost more rail than they have built. Since they took over the system,they have added a total of 11 new station scattered about the system Started lines that were never finished. However,spent billions on a "terminal station",that would have better serviced riders as the original concept,a two track loop connector between Midtown and downtown Brooklyn (Flatbush Terminal,now Atlantic terminal). The stub end terminal might give the LIRR a little more wiggle room to juggle it's trains, and it doesn't seem to matter one bit of riders Still prefer Pennsylvania Station, and Show them that with rider habits. It also doesn't help that the line dead ends where it does, when the potential of it being well used is SOUTH OF THE TERMINAL STATION. This is why I say, the TA isn't interested in expanding city service. Yet it clearly has sunken billions into the suburban railroad network over the years, leaving us to wonder.. |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 28 15:40:10 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway, posted by Q65A on Sat Sep 28 13:52:09 2024. Thank you.But I am not a "sir". It's a common mistake around these parts these days. No harm,no foul. In any case,each and every subway proposal has to be vetted by layers of approval. The Neighbor's it will pass through. Property tax accessed for financial funding. Political backing, community boards, and vetting by the municipal entity that is chartered with building subway infrastructure. Studies and environmental impact statements. City,state and federal funding.. ratings on a list of priorities projects. This is only part of what goes into building subways. Some actually get the green light, but never get a shovel in the ground. Some projects, like the SAS, have been Paid For several times already by the city state and feds,yet TODAY,WE HAVE THREE STATIONS in upper Manhattan, and One station (Grand St) in the lower Eastside. Queens Should have more lines than it has, but the corruption is so ingrained into the process that it is almost impossible to get anything built There,or anywhere else. The Latest effort to bring any new rapid transit to both Brooklyn or Queens rests on the IBX. The ONE GOOD THING IT HAS GOING FOR IT,is that it is already on its own Right of Way. However, the line is deliberately being curtailed by the powers that be. The link could serve as a direct link to the LGA Airport from Jackson Hts, and replace the bus line. The line could potentially be extended to a new transfer station within the Sunnyside Yard, transferring to a line from the 63rd st tunnels using the unused bellmouths. The link could be the third link between Jamaica, South Jamaica,Long Island City and Northern Queens along the LIE all the way to the Nassau boarder. The MTA has the prime opportunity to create a "LRT" system here with vast coverage and conditions to places of interest, residential neighborhoods, and places of employment. With this new system,it could even reduce some business dependence,open up new corridors for transit development, and provide the current transit deserts with viable services. I believe they already know this, and deliberately setting the bar low They Really don't want to increase their transportation responsibility within the city, which they have shown us abundantly. Since they took over the network, we have lost more rail than they have built. Since they took over the system,they have added a total of 11 new station scattered about the system Started lines that were never finished. However,spent billions on a "terminal station",that would have better serviced riders as the original concept,a two track loop connector between Midtown and downtown Brooklyn (Flatbush Terminal,now Atlantic terminal). The stub end terminal might give the LIRR a little more wiggle room to juggle it's trains, and it doesn't seem to matter one bit of riders Still prefer Pennsylvania Station, and Show them that with rider habits. It also doesn't help that the line dead ends where it does, when the potential of it being well used is SOUTH OF THE TERMINAL STATION. This is why I say, the TA isn't interested in expanding city service. Yet it clearly has sunken billions into the suburban railroad network over the years, leaving us to wonder.. |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by Q65A on Sat Sep 28 15:43:31 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway, posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 28 15:40:10 2024. Well said; thanks! |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Oct 28 07:11:58 2024, in response to Horace Harding Subway, posted by Q65A on Sat Sep 28 11:52:39 2024. Ehh, as a pessimist, I don't think it's going to work. As he said, the 7 and Queens Blvd trunk lines are already at capacity, but also, how much extra capacity does the Port Washington branch have? I don't think there's that many extra slots into Penn Station or GCT here. |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Oct 28 10:51:06 2024, in response to Horace Harding Subway, posted by Q65A on Sat Sep 28 11:52:39 2024. There has to be a complete change in mindset in the MTA and NYC transportation planners. Their object should be to extend grade separated mass transit to areas. The opposite is true.Currently, 46% of Queens buildings are within 800 m (~1/2 mile) walking distance of a subway entrance. (That's actual walking distance not straight line distance.) The figure for Manhattan is 87%. Naturally, the priority is to extend the existing SAS further uptown. BTW, the figure for Paris is 98% - but what do foreigners know. The MTA's current expansion priorities can be summarized as re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Much of the current thinking stems from Bloomberg's Plan2020. The rationale was that buses could serve the new satellite business districts in Jamaica and Flushing. There are two problems with this thinking. First, the street grid in Flushing and Jamaica cannot handle the bus traffic alone. This is because the number of buses crossing key intersections exceeds their capacity. Second, the MTA's bus operations are incredibly inefficient. According to the latest (2023) NTD data, the MTA's operating cost is $272/vehicle-revenue-hour. This compares to $193/vehicle-revenue-hour for the average of bus operations in the US SMSA's with a population over 1 million. Unless, something is done to bring the MTA's service efficiency more in line with the industry average, no amount of capital funds (regardless of source) will prevent the system's eventual collapse. Given these factors, the MTA's expansion plans goals should be to expand grade separated rail transit into areas that depend on more expensive bus service, to reduce the required bus vehicle-revenue-hours. There are less expensive ways to incorporate the LIRR into this solution, than what was proposed in the video. Basically, the idea would be to operate LIRR shuttles (or scoots in LIRR lingo) between an existing end of line and points further east. These trains could operate frequently (~every 5 minutes) without impacting the East River tunnels. What's needed are suitable shuttle terminals that won't interfere with existing LIRR through service. Consider the Port Washington Line. Two such terminals already exist: Willets Point and Bayside. There are extra platforms at Willets Point that won't interfere with through operation to/from Manhattan. There is a yard east of Bayside, where east bound trains could relay. In addition, there is room for express tracks at Murray Hill to permit through trains to go around these slower scoots, should that be necessary. New construction is minimum - so is the cost. The passengers would transfer to the Willets Point IRT station. Service level capacity is limited at Main St because of the bumper blocks. Service levels on the Flushing Line are far from capacity. They used to operate 36 tph rush hour service before NYC's fiscal crisis in the 1970's. Perhaps, CBTC has not reduced the line's capacity from it's "obsolete" block system. Also, most of the riders would already be using the Flushing Line. It's just they would be getting on at a different stop. Trains routed through Jamaica are a bit more complicated. One possibility for the reversal terminal at Jamaica, is the abandoned Richmond Hill station on the Montauk Branch. Trains could stop at Jamaica and then proceed to Richmond Hill to turn around. There are 3 branches to the east. The obvious terminal for the main line is the Belmont Station on an unused spur. There is no obvious eastern terminal for the Babylon and Montauk Branches. A quick and dirty solution would be to deadhead to Far Rockaway to change directions. It's important that the additional and inexpensive service not attract riders from Nassau County. They would create severe automobile congestion at eastern Queens terminals. A direct one seat ride into Manhattan would be the justification for charging a higher fare. |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by irtredbirdr33 on Mon Oct 28 12:01:32 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Oct 28 10:51:06 2024. There are two problems with this thinking. First, the street grid in Flushing and Jamaica cannot handle the bus traffic alone. This is because the number of buses crossing key intersections exceeds their capacity. Stephen: I couldn't agree with you more. The traffic situation at Main and Roosevelt is more or less permanent gridlock. I wonder how much time the buses lose going through there? Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by irtredbirdr33 on Mon Oct 28 12:02:03 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Oct 28 10:51:06 2024. There are two problems with this thinking. First, the street grid in Flushing and Jamaica cannot handle the bus traffic alone. This is because the number of buses crossing key intersections exceeds their capacity. Stephen: I couldn't agree with you more. The traffic situation at Main and Roosevelt is more or less permanent gridlock. I wonder how much time the buses lose going through there? Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Oct 28 12:57:07 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway, posted by irtredbirdr33 on Mon Oct 28 12:01:32 2024. The traffic situation at Main and Roosevelt is more or less permanent gridlock. I wonder how much time the buses lose going through there?There's very little knowledge of how many bus trips are scheduled to cross specific knowledge among NYCDOT or MTA officials. What numbers they give out are well below what's scheduled. On my to-do list is rewriting my program that spits out these numbers so that it could be used for any jurisdiction. I believe that Open Street Maps has the data to make this possible. I also believe that the intersections in Flushing and Jamaica (plus 57th and Madison and 5th) are the busiest in the world. This would be one confirmation that the NYC is the outlier expecting blivets to work. |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway - Queens Blvd Expressway |
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Posted by R46 5636 on Mon Oct 28 13:54:41 2024, in response to Horace Harding Subway, posted by Q65A on Sat Sep 28 11:52:39 2024. Regarding this proposed Horace Harding Subway, it occured to me: does the Queens Blvd Expressway segment (the lower roadway that runs between 57 Avenue past Eliot Avenue above the entirety of the Woodhaven Blvd Station) use a previously built space allowing for construction of the Horace Harding Line? The express lanes were built in 1941 a few years after the IND Station. (Although this Expressway was to continue the entire length of Queens Blvd where I imagine it would conflict with IND mezzanines along Queens Blvd itself)The Hoffman Drive passageway may have also to been used to connect to the Horace Harding Line station. Interestingly, an Elevator is currently being constructed at the end of the passageway peeking a view into the space between the roadway and tunnels below. |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by JAzumah on Tue Oct 29 10:46:54 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway, posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 28 12:52:06 2024. I would like to build a subway via the LIE, but I struggle with where to put the yard. I am thinking I would have to buy one of the golf courses in Lake Success to do it. |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Oct 29 18:30:33 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway, posted by JAzumah on Tue Oct 29 10:46:54 2024. I believe the days of subway building are over.The lines that Could have been built, Should have been built, will Never be built,due to the current climate in the city. I'm thinking More SBS type services, and or a few "light rail projects" MIGHT BE CONSTRUCTED, BUT SUBWAYS are done in NYC. The best thing we have going right now, is the piece of SAS we have uptown, with its extended service to the far upper west side, and the IBX. What killed subway building in New York,was the Eastside Access, Metro North to Penn. |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by JAzumah on Tue Oct 29 23:48:29 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway, posted by Edwards! on Tue Oct 29 18:30:33 2024. I believe that value capture and the PILOT assessments will allow subways to monetize the increased density that its presence would permit. I am also expecting that value capture and PILOTs will be conveyed to the private sector in exchange for financing, building, and operating subways.I am skeptical that automatic subways save as much money as they should, but we will see more of them. I am planning to operate a bunch of them based on the same tech as the JFK Airtrain. |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Oct 30 05:36:47 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway, posted by JAzumah on Tue Oct 29 23:48:29 2024. I am skeptical that automatic subways save as much money as they shouldThey will help in being able to match service levels and demand. Current service levels are built around an 8 hour day for operating personnel. If there are no split shifts, then it takes 2 different crews to supply extra trips during both the am and pm peaks. |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Oct 30 07:31:08 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway, posted by JAzumah on Tue Oct 29 23:48:29 2024. That's the thing.We have no "private enterprise" , when it comes to subways in NYC. Sure,we may have Investors around developments, even companies that operate entire complexes like the Fulton Center, World Trade Center etc. Bombardier operated the Hudson Bergen Light Rail for NJ Transit under control turnkey. Design build operate contracts are becoming more popular Because it obligates the lead contractor to make sure the project is built to specs, and operates as expected. NYC subways Are Not. Though you Might can call the NYCTA a 'private operator' who LEASED THE SUBWAYS AND BUS system from the City of New York, it operates as a subsidized system,of the larger STATE owned systems. It has "investors", (Metromedia company OWNED the R62s, for an certain amount of years, until the State paid the bond back used to purchase them), just as the Port Authority was the purchasers of many NYC bus contracts. Private Public enterprise has happened over the years, mostly behind closed doors because the city wanted to be "the Face of any and Every project". They took the risk, and they took the public backlash of it failed. However, the "city" has No ACCOUNTABILITY TO ITS CITIZENS, SO it's shareholders are protected. This has happened over and over again with Every project the City has undertaken , and the subways are no exception. As truth be told, this is directly the reasoning behind the lack of meaningful route expansion, especially the "New Routes Program" of the 60s and 70s failure. Today, with Much more "accountability" attached to work contracts, projects Are being completed,a bit smaller than it should. Whoever gets the IBX, will certainly be subjected to "we are watching you" penny pitching model,so this particular route can be showcased as a turning point with the MTAs Capital Construction team. Plus, the line will be the first Not to be based around the standard "work schedule 8 hour window". The SAS will be based on the Usual,reflecting on its dense catch basin. As I've said,it is Because of These factors,that subway building In NYC will change very little, with No true TRUNK ROUTES BEING BUILT ANYWHERE. Only small extensions,and add ons. What the MTA Could do,is build connectors between routes, to ease some bottle necks, rebuild some IRT routes that were built for B Division trains to increase capacity and connect them to true "Triboro subway" routes. There are ways, but money and time aren't factored |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway LIRR Scoots photos |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Oct 30 07:44:42 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Oct 28 10:51:06 2024. Basically, the idea would be to operate LIRR shuttles (or scoots in LIRR lingo) between an existing end of line and points further east.Now to overcome the "Third Rail Clearence Issue" and pursue The Statler DMU's 
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Re: Horace Harding Subway LIRR Scoots photos |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Oct 30 08:08:04 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway LIRR Scoots photos, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Oct 30 07:44:42 2024. Those cars Were suggested to the MTA.They also said they wanted to build a railcar that looks like their EMU M7, BUT that also never went anywhere. CDOT has designed a wonderful railcar ,DEMU for its branch system. The Springfield line,and Shoreline East routes will be the primary operations, but Other routes along the system could be recipients (Danberry and the other shuttles). The LIRR could use DEMU sets like the Alstom cars for through service from any City Zone terminal to eastern LI,or Jamaica to eastern terminals,or shuttles. No big bulky engines separate from the coaches. Siemens is building similar sets for NYS , for Amtraks Empire Division. Able to run in both electric and non electric right of Way using DEMU trainsets equipment with wire and third rail. |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by JAzumah on Wed Oct 30 12:21:50 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Oct 30 05:36:47 2024. I agree with that. You can call up trains as needed, especially for special events. |
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Re: Horace Harding Subway |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Oct 30 14:26:27 2024, in response to Re: Horace Harding Subway, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Oct 28 10:51:06 2024. BTW, the figure for Paris is 98% - but what do foreigners know.NYC is 7.5 times bigger than Paris. It’s also nearly 4 times as populous. |
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